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Post by sy » August 5, 2005 5:25 pm

Desdamona wrote:I gave up on trying to read everything posted here, so forgive me if this has
been addressed or is out of place, but I don't understand this:

"If you have sex with someone at 18 years old... even with a guy you've
only known for a week... it doesn't make you a slut, dirty, shameful, etc...
wanting to drink and party at 18 years old does not equivocate being a whore."
Could you please explain to me what those terms do mean then?
Honestly, I think those terms mean a lot of different things to different people. That's where a lot of arguments start, there is no die hard guideline that dictates what makes a person be one of those terms.

Just my opinion :D
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Post by tikitatas » August 5, 2005 5:36 pm

Equivocate is not used correctly in the statement - the poster probably meant to say "does not equal". Equivocate means to deliberately "dance around" the truth . . .
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Post by NYCPORT » August 5, 2005 5:44 pm

iuparrothead wrote:
buffettbride wrote:
iuparrothead wrote::oops:
Did you make yourself hot?
No. :lol: Although it doesn't take much... :P

Hmmm... and I like to wear skirts, heels & camisoles... I must be a slut. :-? :lol:
That a girl!!! :D :D :D
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Post by buffettbride » August 5, 2005 5:48 pm

tikitatas wrote:Equivocate is not used correctly in the statement - the poster probably meant to say "does not equal". Equivocate means to deliberately "dance around" the truth . . .
At least you're not equivocating on equivocate.
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Post by ph4ever » August 5, 2005 5:49 pm

buffettbride wrote:
tikitatas wrote:Equivocate is not used correctly in the statement - the poster probably meant to say "does not equal". Equivocate means to deliberately "dance around" the truth . . .
At least you're not equivocating on equivocate.
now you're doing it......
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Post by DeactiveCarib » August 5, 2005 6:06 pm

LIPH wrote: If you were by yourself, I could almost understand not doing anything. But your whole family and some friends and nobody even called the cops? Sorry, but you sound like a bunch of pussies.
hey, my dad is a paranoid Brooklyn jew, what can i say . .. :lol: :lol:

thats just how we were raised, with the notion of "don't try to get involved with any trouble if it's avoidable."
ph4ever wrote: yes I would have done something at even 13 years old. And my father would have done something too. I was raised that if you are seeing a person being attacked, an animal being abused or a child being abused and you turn a blind eye - you are just as guilty as the person commiting the crime. Your whole entire family could have run down that alley screaming fire at the top of your lungs and possibly saved a woman from being raped or murdered.
I'll tell you why you don't run down a dark alley with 3 huge puerto-ricans that are obviously troubled and violent in the first place if they are going to shove a young girl into an alley: Because they're dangerous. For all i know, these guys could have had guns, they could have had knives, etc. If 5 american tourists run down an alley and start yelling "fire", obviously trying to draw attention to what the 3 puerto ricans are doing, do you think that would be a very safe position to put yourself in?? The puerto-ricans would feel threatened, and if they had a gun, they might have shot one of us or stabbed one of us or attacked one of us. If they had the balls to shove that girl in the alley in the 1st place, they arent going to be afraid to defend themselves. They aren't pussies, they aren't going to run away because a few puny tourists yelling 'fire'. They were most likely high or drunk anyway. If we would have ran down that alley, we would be putting ourselves in just as much danger as the girl, if not more. I don't like to make other peoples problems my own, so i looked out for #1 in this case and i think it was the sensible thing to do.

Could we have called the police? as i said, there were no payphones around that i saw. Plus, even if we did call the police, no one in my family could speak spanish. I'm pretty sure that many of you are forgetting that Puerto Rico is a spanish speaking territory. I was learning spanish at the time, but i wouldn't know what to say to a 911 operator at all. I only knew very basic spanish.

All i know is that they were stalking that girl, and then next thing i know i see the three guys walking into the alley and i don't see the girl anywhere. I'm just assuming they shoved her, i don't know that for a fact. Maybe the girl ran down the alley?? I have no idea what happened and honestly, i'm glad that i don't, because i wouldn't want to make that my own problem.

You might say you "would have" done something or your father 'would have' done something, but when you're actually placed in that situation, it's quite different. You realize the danger presented, you calculate the risk, and then you make your judgement call. In this situation, it would be much safer to not get involved.

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Post by PHBeerman » August 5, 2005 6:08 pm

DsilCaribe wrote:
LIPH wrote: If you were by yourself, I could almost understand not doing anything. But your whole family and some friends and nobody even called the cops? Sorry, but you sound like a bunch of pussies.
hey, my dad is a paranoid Brooklyn jew, what can i say . .. :lol: :lol:

thats just how we were raised, with the notion of "don't try to get involved with any trouble if it's avoidable."
ph4ever wrote: yes I would have done something at even 13 years old. And my father would have done something too. I was raised that if you are seeing a person being attacked, an animal being abused or a child being abused and you turn a blind eye - you are just as guilty as the person commiting the crime. Your whole entire family could have run down that alley screaming fire at the top of your lungs and possibly saved a woman from being raped or murdered.
I'll tell you why you don't run down a dark alley with 3 huge puerto-ricans that are obviously troubled and violent in the first place if they are going to shove a young girl into an alley: Because they're dangerous. For all i know, these guys could have had guns, they could have had knives, etc. If 5 american tourists run down an alley and start yelling "fire", obviously trying to draw attention to what the 3 puerto ricans are doing, do you think that would be a very safe position to put yourself in?? The puerto-ricans would feel threatened, and if they had a gun, they might have shot one of us or stabbed one of us or attacked one of us. If they had the balls to shove that girl in the alley in the 1st place, they arent going to be afraid to defend themselves. They aren't pussies, they aren't going to run away because a few puny tourists yelling 'fire'. They were most likely high or drunk anyway. If we would have ran down that alley, we would be putting ourselves in just as much danger as the girl, if not more. I don't like to make other peoples problems my own, so i looked out for #1 in this case and i think it was the sensible thing to do.

Could we have called the police? as i said, there were no payphones around that i saw. Plus, even if we did call the police, no one in my family could speak spanish. I'm pretty sure that many of you are forgetting that Puerto Rico is a spanish speaking territory. I was learning spanish at the time, but i wouldn't know what to say to a 911 operator at all. I only knew very basic spanish.

All i know is that they were stalking that girl, and then next thing i know i see the three guys walking into the alley and i don't see the girl anywhere. I'm just assuming they shoved her, i don't know that for a fact. Maybe the girl ran down the alley?? I have no idea what happened and honestly, i'm glad that i don't, because i wouldn't want to make that my own problem.

You might say you "would have" done something or your father 'would have' done something, but when you're actually placed in that situation, it's quite different. You realize the danger presented, you calculate the risk, and then you make your judgement call. In this situation, it would be much safer to not get involved.
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Post by ph4ever » August 5, 2005 6:39 pm

DsilCaribe wrote:
LIPH wrote: If you were by yourself, I could almost understand not doing anything. But your whole family and some friends and nobody even called the cops? Sorry, but you sound like a bunch of pussies.
hey, my dad is a paranoid Brooklyn jew, what can i say . .. :lol: :lol:

thats just how we were raised, with the notion of "don't try to get involved with any trouble if it's avoidable."
ph4ever wrote: yes I would have done something at even 13 years old. And my father would have done something too. I was raised that if you are seeing a person being attacked, an animal being abused or a child being abused and you turn a blind eye - you are just as guilty as the person commiting the crime. Your whole entire family could have run down that alley screaming fire at the top of your lungs and possibly saved a woman from being raped or murdered.
I'll tell you why you don't run down a dark alley with 3 huge puerto-ricans that are obviously troubled and violent in the first place if they are going to shove a young girl into an alley: Because they're dangerous. For all i know, these guys could have had guns, they could have had knives, etc. If 5 american tourists run down an alley and start yelling "fire", obviously trying to draw attention to what the 3 puerto ricans are doing, do you think that would be a very safe position to put yourself in?? The puerto-ricans would feel threatened, and if they had a gun, they might have shot one of us or stabbed one of us or attacked one of us. If they had the balls to shove that girl in the alley in the 1st place, they arent going to be afraid to defend themselves. They aren't pussies, they aren't going to run away because a few puny tourists yelling 'fire'. They were most likely high or drunk anyway. If we would have ran down that alley, we would be putting ourselves in just as much danger as the girl, if not more. I don't like to make other peoples problems my own, so i looked out for #1 in this case and i think it was the sensible thing to do.

Could we have called the police? as i said, there were no payphones around that i saw. Plus, even if we did call the police, no one in my family could speak spanish. I'm pretty sure that many of you are forgetting that Puerto Rico is a spanish speaking territory. I was learning spanish at the time, but i wouldn't know what to say to a 911 operator at all. I only knew very basic spanish.

All i know is that they were stalking that girl, and then next thing i know i see the three guys walking into the alley and i don't see the girl anywhere. I'm just assuming they shoved her, i don't know that for a fact. Maybe the girl ran down the alley?? I have no idea what happened and honestly, i'm glad that i don't, because i wouldn't want to make that my own problem.

You might say you "would have" done something or your father 'would have' done something, but when you're actually placed in that situation, it's quite different. You realize the danger presented, you calculate the risk, and then you make your judgement call. In this situation, it would be much safer to not get involved.
let's set something striaght - I am a woman. And I HAVE done something and gone against a big man beating up on a woman because it was the right thing to do. I didn't know either and could have easily been shot or killed but I know that because of me that night she was not raped or beaten up or murdered and I sleep well because of it.

And like I said, it's because of attitudes like yours that criminals get away so many times without being caught - because too many people do not want to be involved. They are too self absorbed with their self worth to care about nobody but themselves. They "don't want to get involved". Continue to turn a blind eye to crime if you wish, hopefully someday one of the people you care about won't be a victim of crime but if they are I hope someone gives a crap enough about a life that they will either help or at least summons the police.
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Post by sonofabeach » August 5, 2005 6:54 pm

DsilCaribe wrote:
iuparrothead wrote: 2) The clothing she wore is irrelevant and also, by no means, makes her a 'slut'.
i have to disagree. I was in Old San Juan (Puerto Rico) a few years ago, in an area that I normally wouldn't walk around by myself in, even myself being a guy. I'm there with some friends at night, and on the other side of the street (the dark side, not to mention) an american tourist most likely comming off of a cruise ship, no older than a freshman in college, is walking by herself. This girl is wearing some of the most revealing clothing i've ever seen, and she's probably on her way to a nightclub. The clothing is basically as revealing as J. Lo's infamous dress she wore to the Grammys that one time. A group of 3 puerto rican guys start following her for about 2 blocks, and then push her into a dark alley. I don't know what happened next, i just kept on walking and minded my own business, but i'm sure whatever happened wasn't pretty.

Now please don't tell me that her extremely 'slutty' and revealing clothing didn't have anything to do with that. If she was wearing sweats, it probably never would have happened. The clothing you wear says a lot about your personality, and if she is wearing her J. Lo dress, she's saying that she's not afraid of her body and she's clearly making herself more attractive to men (both good men and bad men, such as those 3). girls like that have to take into consideration that when you're going to a city that isn't known for being the safest place in the world, and you're walking alone in clothing that makes you super-attractive, you're not only attracting the nice guys, but you're attracting the filth of the city too.

by the way, what is your deffinition of a slut. To me, if you are wearing what that girl in my above mentioned story was wearing, thats slutty

this is slutty:
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and rap music makes you kill people right?
I still think that the person that commits the crime is accountable but I also can see that in a certain places (rough areas/foreign countries) you should not make it easier for something bad to happen to you.
Perfect example, my cousin went skateboarding through the rough part/ghetto here in my town. He came out the other end minus a watch and walking. True they should not have taken his stuff but he also should have not put himself in that situation where he knew something bad can happen.
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Post by iuparrothead » August 5, 2005 7:07 pm

sy wrote:
Desdamona wrote:I gave up on trying to read everything posted here, so forgive me if this has
been addressed or is out of place, but I don't understand this:

"If you have sex with someone at 18 years old... even with a guy you've
only known for a week... it doesn't make you a slut, dirty, shameful, etc...
wanting to drink and party at 18 years old does not equivocate being a whore."
Could you please explain to me what those terms do mean then?
Honestly, I think those terms mean a lot of different things to different people. That's where a lot of arguments start, there is no die hard guideline that dictates what makes a person be one of those terms.

Just my opinion :D
Agreed. I think it takes a lot more than partying, drinking or having sex with someone to be a slut. Someone with an overall mindset that sex is casual & use it to get money, love, attention, etc is what I call a slut or a whore. In the context of Natalee Holloway, I still contend that she is/was a young girl that made bad decisions, but does not warrant the overall judgment that she is a whore or 'bad' girl.

Good grief, if everyone that engaged in some drunk sex when they are 18 is branded a whore, then I'm living in too much of a Puritanistic society than I am comfortable with...
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Post by Desdamona » August 5, 2005 7:10 pm

So being a "slut" is not something one should embrace?
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Post by iuparrothead » August 5, 2005 7:14 pm

ph4ever wrote:And like I said, it's because of attitudes like yours that criminals get away so many times without being caught - because too many people do not want to be involved. They are too self absorbed with their self worth to care about nobody but themselves. They "don't want to get involved". Continue to turn a blind eye to crime if you wish, hopefully someday one of the people you care about won't be a victim of crime but if they are I hope someone gives a crap enough about a life that they will either help or at least summons the police.
I agree with you in general here Connie, but I am going to give the dude the benefit of the doubt. In 'our' society, there is no excuse for turning a blind eye to violence like that. But he was a kid... in another country (I know it's U.S. territory, but it's an entirely different culture). In my limited international travel experience, I can tell you that I would not intercede in a situation like that. Yes, it's too bad that they didn't alert the authorities, but it's unlikely that would have made a difference. The turf you're on plays a large role in a decision-making process like that. Especially in a foreign culture with a different language, you don't necessarily know if you're going to help or make a situation worse.

No matter... it's an unfortunate situation all around... but his location and context cannot be compared to what we would do in a normal situation on our own turf.
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Post by iuparrothead » August 5, 2005 7:17 pm

Desdamona wrote:So being a "slut" is not something one should embrace?
Well, I guess I would say it's not something to aspire to... but if one wants to embrace their whorish ways, then it's their right and for no one else to judge... as long as no one else is being directly hurt by their actions.

I'm just trying to dispell the notion that Natalee was a slut because she went off with the boy. Her entire life and existance cannot be judged or encapsulated by one action... or by her choice of what to wear.
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Post by Desdamona » August 5, 2005 7:21 pm

iuparrothead wrote:
Desdamona wrote:So being a "slut" is not something one should embrace?
Well, I guess I would say it's not something to aspire to... but if one wants to embrace their whorish ways, then it's their right and for no one else to judge... as long as no one else is being directly hurt by their actions.

I'm just trying to dispell the notion that Natalee was a slut because she went off with the boy. Her entire life and existance cannot be judged or encapsulated by one action... or by her choice of what to wear.
Unfortunately, her entire continued existance may have hinged on just those things. :(
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Post by ph4ever » August 5, 2005 10:17 pm

iuparrothead wrote:
ph4ever wrote:And like I said, it's because of attitudes like yours that criminals get away so many times without being caught - because too many people do not want to be involved. They are too self absorbed with their self worth to care about nobody but themselves. They "don't want to get involved". Continue to turn a blind eye to crime if you wish, hopefully someday one of the people you care about won't be a victim of crime but if they are I hope someone gives a crap enough about a life that they will either help or at least summons the police.
I agree with you in general here Connie, but I am going to give the dude the benefit of the doubt. In 'our' society, there is no excuse for turning a blind eye to violence like that. But he was a kid... in another country (I know it's U.S. territory, but it's an entirely different culture). In my limited international travel experience, I can tell you that I would not intercede in a situation like that. Yes, it's too bad that they didn't alert the authorities, but it's unlikely that would have made a difference. The turf you're on plays a large role in a decision-making process like that. Especially in a foreign culture with a different language, you don't necessarily know if you're going to help or make a situation worse.

No matter... it's an unfortunate situation all around... but his location and context cannot be compared to what we would do in a normal situation on our own turf.
Ok I'll concede that for a travler in a foreign country it would be best to not intercede.

However it's statements and attitudes such as
I don't like to make other peoples problems my own, so i looked out for #1 in this case and i think it was the sensible thing to do.
I have no idea what happened and honestly, i'm glad that i don't, because i wouldn't want to make that my own problem.
that could make one assume what would happen on his own turf today. It is this "Looking out for #1" That makes it easier for criminals of today get away with their crimes. People see or hear things going on and don't want to get involved - even to the point of picking up the phone and calling 911 and the criminals KNOW that. There was a time in this country that people looked out for each other and if more people were willing to just pick up the phone maybe more criminals would be caught and some people saved from having to live the rest of their lives with the consequences of being a crime victim.
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Post by Sam » August 6, 2005 6:01 am

Connie, I agree with you there. I think the reporter was way out of line and owes the family an apology.
I to lay the blame on people that do nothing. I can understand that people don't want to get hurt by getting involved...but that is the difference between courage and cowardice. How many times have people heard spousal or child BEATING (not spanking) or abuse and did nothing??? Granted there are cases that people did get involved and things were blown out of proportion. I mentioned a case that happened in a grocery store where a woman slapped her son that was being a hellion in a grocery store elsewhere....and what happened with her and her family.

All it takes for good people to do nothing and the bad guys will win. If you don't know how to help or do the right thing, then learn...I think everyone needs to learn that. I am positive that some people will get hurt, but someone is going to get hurt anyway and if you were the one in that situation or it was your wife or daughter or girlfriend..I seriously doubt you would believe or say that you asked for it to happen to you or ..." They asked for it to happen to them." and you would not want anyone to help them...

GRANTED SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS THE KEY.....Knowing your area and situation and keeping aware of it....ALLWAYS be aware of your surroundings...okies the girl was young and no doubt told this, but I cannot say that she deserved whatever happened to her. That is the badguy's fault.... The badguy committed the crime...If she made any mistakes at all and being at that age and inexperieced..was that she allowed herself to become a victim and that is not a crime on any law books is it? But no doubt whatever happened to her definitely is somewhere.....

I know Larry might remember this, or used to, as we had a chat about it long ago elsewhere....
Some years ago, in NYC( I think it was, could have been N.J. ) a woman was murdered and something like 37 people watched it or heard it happen and no one did anything about it. roughly 37 PEOPLE.... not one of them did anything or attempted any actions to save her....
No one wanted to get involved....

The young girl form Alabama, may have dressed in a provacative manner...I do not know. If she was it is no excuse to rape her and say she was asking for it or out to get laid...

GEEZE if that were a legitmate excuse...there would no doubt be ALOT MORE rapes being commited... not to mention what 12 and 13 year old girls are wearing these days..... :roll:

Who knows if she was horny or drunk??? Maybe she had been drinking but was not drunk...??? Maybe the guys thought she was wanting more and she really didn't want anything more or perhaps she realized what was going on and did not want it to happen... HELL many things could have happened....most anything could have happened... The thing is she is missing and presumed dead....I know I would do whatever it takes to keep the heat and pressure on and the search to be continued until she was found....I have done it in the past...no I did not resort to the media, but I was ready to if they had not been found when they were...I know the cops have a tough job and do the best that they can and they get pressure from above to close cases as quickly as possible...

As far as only young white pretty girls being publicized....I cannot say that for this area....They are quite good at covering anything from children of any race to elderly people. They show pictures and a phone number to contact if you have any information.

In this country alone, there are tens of thousands of people that go missing every year... no one ever really notices or hears about. No I do not believe it is for racial reasons either...
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