The Bible

[Soraya]

My Momma raised me "right"...(Right for me anyhow). I'm Presbyterian. We go to church. We host the Easter egg hunt. We help our youth. We love and teach our Sunday School classes. I raise my children with the same "rules" as I was raised. Do unto others, that's it. The Ten Commandments are basic. Not to be varied from. I firmly believe a good moral foundation is key to successful adults. My kids do not think it's okay to be a thief or to hit someone. We just don't. Period. Now, having said this, how do I feel about the Bible???
As my little one will tell you...
The B I B L E, yes that's the book for me. I stand alone on the Word of God, The B I B L E!!

It doesn't take a book to raise a child 'right'. Many children that are not Christian have firm moral foundations...and many children that are raised Christian are horrid little bullies.

[Quiet and Shy]

Brad, as an aside, you've asked a very interesting question and I respect your openness and desire to learn from others. It seems to me that of those who have responded to this thread and some similar previous threads, there are many who have been raised with traditional religion but through struggle, search and experience find these religions don't fit, don't meet their needs, don't connect, etc. I'm curious to know how this strikes you as someone entering the ministry...is this discouraging, energizing, puzzling? How do you view this?

I personally value these discussions on this board because I find I can express opinions and see thoughts of others that are "taboo" in traditional religious settings. With churches (my personal experience) and Christian friends one can discuss the spiritual journey only if it is the "correct" journey. And since I'm not always on the beaten path, there's just not much to discuss, and hence, I don't belong, fit in, etc. There is no room for discussion...you're either "in" or "out" with no space or tolerance for a true journey and real learning. So hence, I (and I suppose others) wander away. Kudos to those who have found a path that works for them (whatever that path).

Brad, this got "lost" a few pages back. I am interested in your thoughts if you are willing to share. Thanks.

[tommcat327]

This is where is problem with fundamentalism occurs, the proof-texting of one or two verses out of context to order to bolster one's veiw on a particular social issue.

that seems to be what every person i ever see quoting the bible is doing though. interpretting it to fit his/her own needs.
sometimes they like to quote it word for word and say we should follow that....if it helps them. other times they like to say we should not take everything in it literally. again, if it fits their needs.


and i certainly dont consider atheism to be a religion. for me it is a lack of religion, belief, faith or whatever else you'd like to call it.

[RAGTOP]

i too was raised right, with good morals (better than most people these days) and that was done without any kind of religion forced on me. something i thank my parents for all the time

I have to say it was the same for me, Tom.

Ditto.

Matt you so full of s***, you have no morals

[UAHparrothead]

This is where is problem with fundamentalism occurs, the proof-texting of one or two verses out of context to order to bolster one's veiw on a particular social issue.

that seems to be what every person i ever see quoting the bible is doing though. interpretting it to fit his/her own needs.
sometimes they like to quote it word for word and say we should follow that....if it helps them. other times they like to say we should not take everything in it literally. again, if it fits their needs.


and i certainly dont consider atheism to be a religion. for me it is a lack of religion, belief, faith or whatever else you'd like to call it.

I think the difference is that fundamentalists seem their view as the "only" view and they claim that they have insight into God's mind. While others, myself included, might look at a verse a particular way and yet maintain that others might see things differently

[AlbatrossFlyer]

i too was raised right, with good morals (better than most people these days) and that was done without any kind of religion forced on me. something i thank my parents for all the time

I have to say it was the same for me, Tom.

Ditto.

Matt you so full of s***, you have no morals

what do you expect from a car salesman

[Soraya]

another fundamental definition for religion is a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. I would say the both the belief and the unbelief in a diety requires faith.

Very standard theist view...but no, not believeing in something that can not be proven (and for those that have faith it doesn't have to be) does not require faith. It's the default of logic.

I don't believe in the Great Pumpkin....that doesn't require any sort of faith....just a lack of proof.

Tell me, have you ever not had faith? Not just a questioning of your faith....but actually not having any faith at all to even question? Do you know what it is to not have faith in the Christian God?

If you haven't, then your idea that athiesm requires faith would be understandable (if still wrong)...but then anytime you don't believe in something unproven, you would, by default, creating a religion by your own words....and that doesn't make sense.

I've never had 'faith' as Christians describe it (and yet am still a moral and basically good person..imagine that). But if I can't see it and/or if I can't prove it doesn't exists....it is still a question to be answered later if possible. That doesn't require faith in the least.

[SchoolGirlHeart]

another fundamental definition for religion is a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. I would say the both the belief and the unbelief in a diety requires faith.

Very standard theist view...but no, not believeing in something that can not be proven (and for those that have faith it doesn't have to be) does not require faith. It's the default of logic.

I don't believe in the Great Pumpkin....that doesn't require any sort of faith....just a lack of proof.

Tell me, have you ever not had faith? Not just a questioning of your faith....but actually not having any faith at all to even question? Do you know what it is to not have faith in the Christian God?

If you haven't, then your idea that athiesm requires faith would be understandable (if still wrong)...but then anytime you don't believe in something unproven, you would, by default, creating a religion by your own words....and that doesn't make sense.

I've never had 'faith' as Christians describe it (and yet am still a moral and basically good person..imagine that). But if I can't see it and/or if I can't prove it doesn't exists....it is still a question to be answered later if possible. That doesn't require faith in the least.

Not trying to be an a$$, here, honestly, but in a way it requires faith in yourself, in your ability to reason and apply logic. That doesn't make it a religion, by any means, but I don't think a completely faith-free life exists. Even if you don't put faith in a deity or a religion (which is absolutely fine!), you do put a certain amount of faith in yourself.

**edit** I put my faith in the fact that when I turn the key, my car will start. Not a religion, but still sort of a faith thing.

[Tiki Bar]

I am interested in your opinion of the Bible, what does it mean to you?, what is it?, who wrote it? Basically, what comes to mind when you think about the Bible?

I don't actually know anything about it... even though I was a good student, there were 2 things I never had much interest in: history, and reading books. I guess the Bible fell into both of those categories from my perspective, and as you can guess, organized religion wasn't in my upbringing.

[UAHparrothead]

another fundamental definition for religion is a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. I would say the both the belief and the unbelief in a diety requires faith.

Very standard theist view...but no, not believeing in something that can not be proven (and for those that have faith it doesn't have to be) does not require faith. It's the default of logic.

I don't believe in the Great Pumpkin....that doesn't require any sort of faith....just a lack of proof.

Tell me, have you ever not had faith? Not just a questioning of your faith....but actually not having any faith at all to even question? Do you know what it is to not have faith in the Christian God?

If you haven't, then your idea that athiesm requires faith would be understandable (if still wrong)...but then anytime you don't believe in something unproven, you would, by default, creating a religion by your own words....and that doesn't make sense.

I've never had 'faith' as Christians describe it (and yet am still a moral and basically good person..imagine that). But if I can't see it and/or if I can't prove it doesn't exists....it is still a question to be answered later if possible. That doesn't require faith in the least.

I understant where you are coming from, but I still see atheism is a belief system. Here's why, an atheist says that God does not exist, now there is no proof that God does not exist and therefore it is a belief not a fact. It is antithetical to the Christian beleif that God does exist, a Christian does not have proof and therefore there must be faith and belief in that notion. I say that the Great Pumpkin does not exist, I say that Vishnu or any other god or goddess do not exist, I do not have proof either way and therefore it is a belief.

I would say that agnosticism does not require faith because by its very definition is a state of unknowing.

I don't know maybe I am wrong on this. I sense a lot of animosity with the notion that atheism is could be considered a religion, or at the very least a system of belief. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers but I'm just calling it like I see it.

[tommcat327]

the Great Pumpkin doesn't exist???

[rednekkPH]

the Great Pumpkin doesn't exist???

Sorry, Linus.

[LaTda]

**edit** I put my faith in the fact that when I turn the key, my car will start. Not a religion, but still sort of a faith thing

I love car analogies

I DON'T have faith that when I turn the key it will start, have you seen the old POS truck I drive
Instead of faith I pop the hood occaisionally & knock the corrosion off of the terminals & check the oil, etc..

if you leave that stuff to faith it will leave you stranded at the worst of times


... in other words, to swim upstream one must have been downstream...

I know, that makes no sense, I just threw that in LOL

[Sam]

A simple enough question is oto ask them what they believe. A simple statement of I don't believe in anything to I don't believe in God to I believe when we die that is it. All are beliefs.

Since to some it has never been confirmed one way or the other, about the existance or non-existance of God. ( At least to some people....)

It actually breaks down to Faith, of what one chooses to believe or not to believe. Both are Faith in a system of beliefs or non beliefs. It is called Free Will by most Christians.....

I don't know that Atheism could be called a religion per se as Atheists have no Bible, no dogma, nothing regulate or suggest a way of worship. But they definitley have Faith or belief in their denial of the existance of God.

I am not attacking Atheists or condemning them. I am merely supporting Brad and others in saying that Atheists do have Faith. As pointed out by SGH, Faith in something does not automatilly mean it has religous conotations. Remember Religion is of Man, and founded by Man, and Created by Man. Not by God. ( By Man, I am referring to the human race, and not to Gender of anyone in particular!)

We have Faith in Doctors,our Police and EMS workers, Our Military, and Many other people and things.

[jimolliemom]

I also believe the Christian foundation only strengthened the moral ground in the first place.

I'D HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH THAT ALSO. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PEOPLE THAT HAVE TORTURED AND KILLED THOUSANDS OVER THE YEARS IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY?
I'M NOT SAYING I ALWAYS EQUATE IT WITH BAD THINGS EITHER BUT CHRISTIANITY AND MORALITY CERTAINLY DO NO GO HAND IN HAND.

IF THAT WAS THE CASE THERE WOULD BE NO SUCH THINGS AS THE WHOLE CATHOLIC PRIEST PROBLEMS OVER THE YEARS. I'M NO CHRISTIAN BUT I KNOW THAT WHAT THEY DID WAS COMPLETELY IMMORAL.

Gosh, all I did was state MY opinion. That IS what Brad wanted. No one has to agree with me. Frankly, I feel happy with who I am, what I believe and how I live and raise my kids. We pray before meals, we pray before we sleep and we pray for others. I am not asking you to agree. No one ever said I was pushing my beliefs off on anyone and furthermore, I was not bashing any other religion/non-religion or foundation. This is what I think and how I do it.

[Tiki Bar]

Anyone else have this song running through their head?


BABY!

[rednekkPH]

Anyone else have this song running through their head?



BABY!

Damn you...

[LaTda]

Sam, Faith can also be defined as accepting as true something which one has been told by someone who is believed to be trustworthy.

I came to this conclusion, I don't have faith that the idea of other athiests works for me also.

& I don't have faith in Drs, Police, Government.

If I had faith in my Dr I'd absolve them of the need for malpractice ins..
Ask Rodney King about faith in the Police or trust me as a former cop that you don't want to place your faith in the hands of all cops part of the reason I'm not a cop BTW~ I couldn't live with the double standards..

& don't get me started in faith in the Gov't; I have NONE of that
I do NOT believe at ALL that atheism is a religion & 'almost' take offense to believers (whom I have no problem with at all) who try to pin the moniker of religion on an atheist~ no offense, please, just my thoughts

[Soraya]

I understand where you are coming from, but I still see atheism is a belief system. Here's why, an atheist says that God does not exist, now there is no proof that God does not exist and therefore it is a belief not a fact.

It is a basic tenant of logic that you can not prove a negative. It would not be up to the atheist to prove that God does not exist (because they are not making the claim that he does) but up to the theist to prove that he does. Since theists can’t….it goes back to who makes the claims in the first place. It takes faith to believe something unproven exists. It’s a simple matter of logic to say that since there is no evidence, it doesn’t.

It is antithetical to the Christian belief that God does exist, a Christian does not have proof and therefore there must be faith and belief in that notion. I say that the Great Pumpkin does not exist, I say that Vishnu or any other god or goddess do not exist, I do not have proof either way and therefore it is a belief.

Ah…so everything you can’t prove is faith? That is a hell of a way to go through life. Also, the people making the claims for their Great Pumpkin are in the same boat as Christians. They would have to prove the GP…not have Christians prove that it doesn’t exist.

As SchoolGirl Heart mentioned earlier…she has faith that her car will start in the morning. That isn’t faith…that is the science of a combustion engine. When it doesn’t start it can be traced back to a mechanical failure (even if the person turning the key doesn’t have the knowledge to diagnose it themselves). I don’t know many mechanics that do a few rituals and go ‘poof’ and have the engine work again. They apply the science they've learned.

I would say that agnosticism does not require faith because by its very definition is a state of unknowing.

There are many forms off atheism. Two terms normally used are 'hard' and 'soft'. Maybe I could give you some of hard atheism having elements of a 'religion' only because hard atheist tend to have so much personally wrapped up in the fact that there is no God, but a soft atheist, who tend to be more numerous, have simply taken the idea of not knowing, to the next step...basically, "Based on the available evidence, there is no God. Get back to me to reevaluate if any shows up." This is different from agnostics because agnostics do not think that humans can know God one way or the other….soft atheists feel they have their answer, but will reevaluate if more information shows up, per the scientific method.

You have had to come across these concepts in divinity school. I had a friend that graduated from Notre Dame with her major in religious studies and then went on to Duke Law school and received her Masters in Religious Studies at the same time. At least at these schools, they teach about the forms of atheism and the logic behind it.

I don't know maybe I am wrong on this. I sense a lot of animosity with the notion that atheism is could be considered a religion, or at the very least a system of belief. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers but I'm just calling it like I see it.

Relgions seek to control others and what they believe and have faith in. They set up a strict code to what their followers can and can not do. (Yes, some are stricter then others). They demand allegiance and faith to the great figurehead God or Gods.

Atheism has no such teachings or requirements. Atheism doesn't tell a person how to act (for good or bad) or that they have to sacrifice a 6-pack of Corona every Friday night to keep their Atheist standing.

Again, if you’ve always had ‘faith’, I am sure it is hard to imagine not having faith is anything….even if you have to stretch that to include having faith in not having faith. (and that is circular reasoning…).

I guess the animosity you are seeing comes from the very common theist behavior of telling the atheist that they don’t really know…they really have ‘faith’ they just don’t realize it yet….or that it’s just ‘misplaced’. It’s very distasteful for one adult to tell another that they don’t know what they believe. Would you like it if I told you that you don’t believe in God, that you are really worshipping the Great Pumpkin, you just don’t’ know it yet? (LOL….you’d be quite right to tell me to bug off at that point!)

[Soraya]

Gosh, all I did was state MY opinion. That IS what Brad wanted.

I don't think the problem is that you stated your opinion, but your intial post came across as you were saying that those that did not do as you, share your faith, do not have any morality. You may have not meant this, but as you know, being online takes away many elements of body langauge and vocal tone.

Since this a common slam by Christians, and one that tends to get others feathers in a ruffle, it was easy to figure you meant the same.