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Lastplaneout wrote:NO WIMPS!

ahhhhhh, but what if a boy WANTS to play with dolls? I have a good friend whose eldest son is a boy's boy.... sports nut, etc. the middle child, a boy, has preferred dolls since day 1. he likes to fix up girls' hair. the only sport he'd even *consider* is gymnastics, and he's very good at it. he's 9 now, and by some people's definitions (including his parents, who are going berserk over it all) he's a wimp. but he's also one of the kindest, most loveable children I've ever come across, with a heart of gold. he should also have the freedom to grow up to be what he is, not what someone else thinks he should be just because he has a Y-chromosome.

SchoolGirlHeart wrote:

Lastplaneout wrote:NO WIMPS!

ahhhhhh, but what if a boy WANTS to play with dolls? I have a good friend whose eldest son is a boy's boy.... sports nut, etc. the middle child, a boy, has preferred dolls since day 1. he likes to fix up girls' hair. the only sport he'd even *consider* is gymnastics, and he's very good at it. he's 9 now, and by some people's definitions (including his parents, who are going berserk over it all) he's a wimp. but he's also one of the kindest, most loveable children I've ever come across, with a heart of gold. he should also have the freedom to grow up to be what he is, not what someone else thinks he should be just because he has a Y-chromosome.

Well he is still young yet. I would certainly be concerned if that behavior continued into middle and high school. The emotional rigors from cruel students could be numerous.

Lastplaneout wrote:

SchoolGirlHeart wrote:

Lastplaneout wrote:NO WIMPS!

ahhhhhh, but what if a boy WANTS to play with dolls? I have a good friend whose eldest son is a boy's boy.... sports nut, etc. the middle child, a boy, has preferred dolls since day 1. he likes to fix up girls' hair. the only sport he'd even *consider* is gymnastics, and he's very good at it. he's 9 now, and by some people's definitions (including his parents, who are going berserk over it all) he's a wimp. but he's also one of the kindest, most loveable children I've ever come across, with a heart of gold. he should also have the freedom to grow up to be what he is, not what someone else thinks he should be just because he has a Y-chromosome.

Well he is still young yet. I would certainly be concerned if that behavior continued into middle and high school. The emotional rigors from cruel students could be numerous.

why concerned? because it's not "normal" for a boy? if this continues, he's going to need support for who he is, not someone trying to force him to conform to something he's not, because as you say, the other kids are going to be brutal....

SchoolGirlHeart wrote:

Lastplaneout wrote:NO WIMPS!

ahhhhhh, but what if a boy WANTS to play with dolls? I have a good friend whose eldest son is a boy's boy.... sports nut, etc. the middle child, a boy, has preferred dolls since day 1. he likes to fix up girls' hair. the only sport he'd even *consider* is gymnastics, and he's very good at it. he's 9 now, and by some people's definitions (including his parents, who are going berserk over it all) he's a wimp. but he's also one of the kindest, most loveable children I've ever come across, with a heart of gold. he should also have the freedom to grow up to be what he is, not what someone else thinks he should be just because he has a Y-chromosome.

The little stinker may have a great Idea
'I've played with little Johnny since we were little"

1st let me say I haven't read any of the linked stuff - it looks too exhausting.

HSV - I feel for ya dude. Even in the cases where the man is the "better parent", I think in most cases the wife wins the custody battle. It's not fair, but it's one of few advantages women have over men. I'm happy when the parents who split work it out amicably, but in many cases, there are raw volatile emotions that prevent it, whether it's best for the kids or not.

On another topic, our neighbor's son was the only boy mixed in to play with 8 girls, and his dad used to cringe at the sight of him playing Barbies and dressup with the girls. Cringe yes, but try to curtail no.

I don't know why, but recently that pattern shifted to more aggressive "boy-like" play however. (they range in age from 4-8 years old, with him turning 7 today) Lately they chase and tackle eachother, play a lot of sports, play spies, play with frogs etc. This is just an observation on the dynamics of childhood friends - I don't actually have a point.

I was a tomboy through and through, as was every other girl on my street. I don't know of anyone who even owned a Barbie or dolls, and none of us wore dresses, but I did have an easy bake oven! We played sports 90% of the time, and built forts in which the boys and girls kissed eachother a la truth or dare the other 10% of the time!

I LIKE BOOBS

Tomm are you aware of the Tunnel vision thing... had it long????

ragtopW wrote:Tomm are you aware of the Tunnel vision thing... had it long????

I LIKE BOOBS

Key Lime Lee wrote:

buffettbride wrote:I can't fix the problem of child custody issues, other than to suggest to marry the right person the first time and don't get divorced.

Care to lend me your crystal ball next time?



The system is seriously messed up... trust me. It's not even the system per se but the pervasive belief at all levels of the system that men are less capable of being full-time parents than women. It's a shame really... the courts would have rathered I saw my daughter every other weekend and send a check than I actually be a part of her daughter's life on a weekly basis. Tell me that's not f***d up.

Sorry I didn't get to respond yesterday. Had to post and run.

Heck...if I had that kind of a crystal ball, I'd be richer than Oprah.

The system is hosed. In the courts eyes, a check is equal to time spent. My parents divorced when I was 6. My dad never missed a child support payment a day in his life. Even sent extra $$ when needed. As the years went on, I saw him less and less. We were never mandated to go over to his house, but the custody agreement said he could have us every other weekend. Never once was he begging to spend time with his kids (myself and 2 sisters). He was very busy with his new wife and stepdaughter. Sad but true. The way I see it, children are not considered much differently than the car or other objects divided up during a separation. My dad got the car and the house, my mom got the kids and a townhome to rent, and I got a bus pass.

HsvParrothead wrote:

buffettbride wrote:I can't fix the problem of child custody issues, other than to suggest to marry the right person the first time and don't get divorced. Either that, or don't procreate. This isn't intended as a direct statement to you...

Anyway...just my two cents.

Sure it isnt

And it's not my fault we procreated ~ Capn Mo and Cuervo Gold showed up on New Years Eve

Seriously though, the marriage is regretful... But my twin girls are irreplaceablee..... ooops spelling

So totally agreed. People like to get married and make babies (or make babies and get married like I did). I'm no saint!!

SchoolGirlHeart wrote:
..... or the freedom to work outside the home.....

...I'm taking your line out of context..but not for a bad reason.

The one negative effect of whatever-ya-wanna-call-the-women's-movement is that over time I feel it has made it more difficult for one parent to "work" at home with the children (because being a stay at home parent is VERY hard work) and only have one parent work a job for $$. I am sooooooo freakin' liberated that I HAVE to have a job order to maintain a certain standard of living. I could quit my job to be SAHM, but the sacrifices would including moving into an apartment and pulling my daughter from the school she knows and loves (happens to be a tuition-based school). Those are not sacrifices that my family is willing to make, but who knows which is better? Is it better for me (or my husband) to be at home with our kids during the day instead of sending them to day care and before/after school care? Or is it better to own our own home in a decent (not necessarily affluent) neighborhood with a nice place for the kids to play and grow up?

buffettbride wrote:I'm no saint!!

That's why we like you!

Now, about those pictures... (.) (.)

SuperTrooper wrote: Now, about those pictures... (.) (.)

Why, I have no idea what you are talking about *embarassed smiley*

Key Lime Lee wrote:

buffettbride wrote:I can't fix the problem of child custody issues, other than to suggest to marry the right person the first time and don't get divorced.

Care to lend me your crystal ball next time?



The system is seriously messed up... trust me. It's not even the system per se but the pervasive belief at all levels of the system that men are less capable of being full-time parents than women. It's a shame really... the courts would have rathered I saw my daughter every other weekend and send a check than I actually be a part of her daughter's life on a weekly basis. Tell me that's not f***d up.

As far as the crystal ball goes... I'll take one, maybe twelve

As far as what Lee said ~ AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!

ragtopW wrote:The little stinker may have a great Idea
'I've played with little Johnny since we were little"

Nice Point

buffettbride wrote:The system is hosed. In the courts eyes, a check is equal to time spent. My parents divorced when I was 6. My dad never missed a child support payment a day in his life. Even sent extra $$ when needed. As the years went on, I saw him less and less. We were never mandated to go over to his house, but the custody agreement said he could have us every other weekend. Never once was he begging to spend time with his kids (myself and 2 sisters). He was very busy with his new wife and stepdaughter. Sad but true. The way I see it, children are not considered much differently than the car or other objects divided up during a separation. My dad got the car and the house, my mom got the kids and a townhome to rent, and I got a bus pass.

See, It looks like I'm in the minority ~ But I dont really "think" I am here I just think a lot of fathers must eventually just give in to the system because it does appear like your fighting the impossible battle ~ I know I've felt like giving up many times during the last 10 months my divorce/custody battle has been going on BUT I cant, I owe my little girls more than that ~ and I know that my situation IS different from most I would assume, in the sense that I AM truly the better parent... and I realize anyone can state that and I know that in order to agree or understand this that you all would have to know the full history of the past 3 years since the girls were born (which is impossible)... I will say that members of my side of the family strongly considered calling Child Services on my wife BUT did not because I would be accountable/punishable as well and I could not stop what was going on while I was at work (not physical abuse but neglect) One of our biggest arguments was when I was trying to go to work in the mornings (when I owned my own company) the girls would wake up shortly before I left (say 7:30ish) and I would ask her to get up with the girls ~ commence fighting as she screamed and would tell me to "Shut the ***** up" and "leave her the ***** alone" YES I could have gotten them up BUT what good does that do when I'm leaving in 5-10 minutes and she snoring away (her laziness was our biggest prob) ... I'd ask I was walking out the door "Are you getting up?? The girls are awake and I'm leaving!" she'd always say Yes and throw her pillow over her head, and of course ask if I could shut the BR door on the way out (I wouldnt, and commence fighting)
She would usually call around Noon asking what I was doing (taking lunch) and she'd tell me her and the girls just got up ~ "But they were awake when I left this morning. ---- OH, I know... they fell back to sleep"

Now I'm sorry but if your 2 yrs old ~ and your left in your room with nothing to do, your gonna go back to sleep as well ~ it's called boredom Sorry just one of MANY examples ... the girls would end up in bed for an average of 15-16 hrs at night and she still put 'em down for a nap a few hours later
BUT I'M AT WORK ~ WHAT COULD I DO?????`
And I was the ONLY one who ever played with them ~ thats why they love me so much... not just cause I'm the "fun" parent but I also take the time for them, singing them to sleep, take 'em to the park .... oh well
Anyhow, stepping off the soapbox now...

My original point was this I have already legally stated... She can have any possessions she wants ... just let me have my girls as far as Physical Custody ~ Even told her and my lawyer... get me my girls - I dont even want any of her money But of course my lawyer said Yes you do
Thats the thing... I KNOW the only reason she wants them is for the attention it brings on occassion for having twins (like Wal-Mart greeters ) and for the pay-off --- thats her ONLY focus in this divorce... MONEY, f**** b**** She never wanted anything to do with them before WHY start now

I am a non custodial parent and I understand your problems HSV. Having been there done that with what you are going thru your best bet is to always keep the girls best interest at heart and never ever talk bad about their mother or allow anyone to talk bad about her. They will make up their own minds anyway.....

buffettbride wrote:

SchoolGirlHeart wrote:
..... or the freedom to work outside the home.....

...I'm taking your line out of context..but not for a bad reason.

The one negative effect of whatever-ya-wanna-call-the-women's-movement is that over time I feel it has made it more difficult for one parent to "work" at home with the children (because being a stay at home parent is VERY hard work) and only have one parent work a job for $$. I am sooooooo freakin' liberated that I HAVE to have a job order to maintain a certain standard of living. I could quit my job to be SAHM, but the sacrifices would including moving into an apartment and pulling my daughter from the school she knows and loves (happens to be a tuition-based school). Those are not sacrifices that my family is willing to make, but who knows which is better? Is it better for me (or my husband) to be at home with our kids during the day instead of sending them to day care and before/after school care? Or is it better to own our own home in a decent (not necessarily affluent) neighborhood with a nice place for the kids to play and grow up?

This is the heart of the matter - it's about choice, it's about a changing and evolving society...

None of us are going to get it perfect, but we absolutely must have the freedom and autonomy to choose what we feel is best, and then to change our minds if we want.

I'm totally cool with these women staying home and playing Jane Austen and Queen Victoria and all that, if that's their choice - hell, I get half-naked and wear hula skirts on several occasions each year ... It's when they start up with that Biblically-predestined role crap and the judgementalism and not only place a higher value on docile, submissive women, but demean and dehumanize women who've made other choices that I start to get seriously p***. It's about choice and free will. It's not about making us all fit into one cookie-cutter role.

I'll even agree that the fact that our economy has become a two-income economy has been as bad for women and families as the old gender-role stereotypes. But just because these chicas don't like how far the pendulum swung in one direction doesn't mean we should send it hurtling back in the other...it's about balance...choice...freedom...

So if they want to throw tea parties and wear Edwardian party frocks, fine...they just need to stop ragging on other people for their choices.

ph4ever wrote:I am a non custodial parent and I understand your problems HSV. Having been there done that with what you are going thru your best bet is to always keep the girls best interest at heart and never ever talk bad about their mother or allow anyone to talk bad about her. They will make up their own minds anyway.....

I'd never speak poorly of her IN FRONT of them ~ dont think the same courtesy is given to me however ~ last time they were here (July 4th weekend... yeah, she's in contempt right now - seen them twice since Memorial Day) They were saying ~ "No, you want mommy - Daddy's Bad".... their at that parrot stage where they repeat everything

And I know... despite what takes place legally in the next year or so ~ when they are old enough to voice their opinions and the court will actually acknowledge it .... they'll be coming home to me... and your ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ... they will see things for how they really are

HSV...I truly feel for your situation. Connie is right that you will never have to say anything negative about your ex to your kids because they will figure it out. It makes me so sad when things like this happen because the one thing I know I can do, with or without money, posessions, or even a husband...is be a hella good mom. I know you know that you can do the same as a dad. *sniff sniff* I think I need a tissue.

I haven't meant this discussion to be leaning towards women as better parents as men...but that is where my experience is so I can only refer to that. I didn't have a dad that thought the world of his children. He didn't come to soccer games, send cards on my birthday (or call, or anything). I truly have no direct experience in my life of what a "dad" is. My daughter didn't even have a dad for the first 3 years of her life. The whole concept of "daddy" is pretty new to me so I'm sorry if I seem kind of left-field about some of this stuff.