New Pledge of Allegiance

[Key Lime Lee]

Poem misses the point... it's one thing for any kid to express their belief in god (or in purple hair) but quite another when a child is forced to acknowledge god.

It should have never been added by the Christians in the first place.

But then I wonder what the value of a pledge is that's said rote, not learned and understood and chosen.

UH Lee have you ever listened to the Hymns sang each and every Sunday
Morning/afternoon/evening???
How many of those people ever think on what they are singing.

not at all a put down just a correlation.

I'm an atheist so I don't usually hear too many hymns...

But I still believe civics lessons in school should be actual lessons, not just memorization.

[A Balding Fan]

The Pledge must remain in every American school.......... That unless you are home schooled..............

The Pledge should also be said at every single sporting event too. There is no harm in saying that right before our National Anthem.

[Sam]

Just more of the PC maddness and the leftwingers in action....The accuse the Rightwingers of putting it there for whatever reason.

Perhaps if people would go back and read the original Founding Fathers statements and inscriptions in certain Goverment buildings and institutions....where God is mentioned or perhaps the Ten Commandments are...but nope they start in schools......

It was never the point of the Founding Fathers to create,or allow to be created a single State Church as England had. Simply mentioning God as often as the Founding Fathers did, was in recognition of a greater power/deity. And the State could not/should not create or force people to be Catholic/Prostestant/Muslim/Wiccan or what the BLEEP ever...simply to ackowledge it....is my best way of wording it.

Well if you want to remove God from everyone lives.............. tell us why some schools are allowing places for muslim children to worship/say prayers/ or other special allowances?

The Pledge of Allegiance and prayer before games and in school should stay, if some one thinks differently he or she is more than welcome not to say it. They can choose to ignore it.

I saw no harm in the morning homeroom prayer or "silent minute" for meditation.
If you don't believe in in it then what harm will it cause to say it?
Just more PC BLEEP is all it is!

[Key Lime Lee]

Just more of the PC maddness and the leftwingers in action....The accuse the Rightwingers of putting it there for whatever reason.

The Knights of Columbus (a catholic organization) successfully lobbied congress to add "under God" to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. That's not PC anything - just the facts.

No one wants to remove god from everyone's lives - you're free to believe whatever you want. The issue is whether the state should be allowed to validate one belief system in favor of another.

Why should my child be forced to acknowlege something that doesn't exist? If you want to believe in mythology, fine - but your imaginary dieties and fairy tales have no place being endorsed by school administrators or teachers.

[Sam]

Just more of the PC maddness and the leftwingers in action....The accuse the Rightwingers of putting it there for whatever reason.

The Knights of Columbus (a catholic organization) successfully lobbied congress to add "under God" to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. That's not PC anything - just the facts.

And why should my child be forced to acknowlege something that doesn't exist? If you want to believe in mythology, fine - but keep your imaginary dieties and fairy tales out of the classroom please.

So if your child is in the minority you want to hold everyone back to the limits of your child?

I did not see any theology or religion being taught in class rooms. Only allowing the Pledge of Allegiance and perhaps a silent momet for prayer or meditation! and allowing them before games! What's next will you call for banning the National Anthem before ANY sporting event as well?

I notice you did not mention why it was ok for GOVERMENT SCHOOLS to make a special place for muslim children ?? Is fair to everyone elses child including yours to be discriminated against for such. religious purposes?

Wait this is the same person that claim discrimmination based soley on skin color is WRONG! Yet approves of "Affirmative Action".....

After all you are so afraid your child MIGHT learn to believe differently than you do...or your child might be OFFENDED? Are you wanting the school to give your child condoms? What's the next item to give them...clean needles ?? BLEEP PC!!!

One thing for sure WHEN GOD WAS IN SCHOOL.... there were no Columbines!

I would rather have God in school and have live children and offended people, than alot of dead children and teachers and live children, living and dealing with the trauma of the event and fears of it happening again! OR other parents and schools and students fearing such events.


Tell me were you ever in the military? I doubt you were........... There is an old saying about "There is no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole when your being shot at/underfire!"

[Key Lime Lee]

So if your child is in the minority you wantt to hold everyone back?

I didn't realize we all had to accept the religion of the majority....

Only allowing the Pledge of Allegiance and perhaps a silent momet for prayer or meditation!

As long as the Pledge doesn't recognize God then I'm not concerned.

Only allowing the Pledge of Allegiance and perhaps a silent momet for prayer or meditation!

I notice you did not mention why it was ok for GOVERMENT SCHOOLS to make a special place for muslim children ?? Is fair to everyone elses child including yours to be discriminated against for such. religious purposes?

I didn't mention it because I haven't heard or read about it. But even so, allowing children a place to practice their personal religion is different than a teacher or administrator endorsing one.

Wait this is the same person that claim discrimmination based soley on skin color is WRONG! Yet approves of "Affirmative Action".....

Yeah.., and??? It's not my fault that you can't grasp how the two are different. One is about repression, the other about attempting to undo the damage of that repression. As I've said consistently, when all things are euqal, I would be against such programs.

After all you are so afraid your child MIGHT learn to believe differently than you do...or your child might be OFFENDED? Are you wanting the school to give your child condoms? What's the next item to give them...clean needles ?? BLEEP PC!!!

I'm not concerned that my child might believe something different than me - that's their choice. I'm also not concerned that my child might get offended - that's part of living in a free society. The only issue that concerns me is when notion of "God" is given credibility by governmental authority figures.

Would you be upset if the schooll your children went to added the word "under Satan" to the pledge? According to your logic that should be A-okay.

I'm not really sure how condoms or needles relate to my objection to state endorsement of one belief system over another.

One thing for sure WHEN GOD WAS IN SCHOOL.... there were no Columbines! I would rather have God in school and have live children and offended people than alot of dead children and live children living and dealing with the trauma of the event and fears of it happening again!

Right... it's the lack of God that is the problem. I guess your point is that if God were involved, those two boys would be too busy being molested by priests to ever get a gun? Good thing sexual abuse doesn't cause trauma or lingering fear.

Or maybe you mean that all the kids would be busy worrying about whether homosexuals are going to destroy the "sanctity" of marriage? Or perhaps wrapped up planning the best way to kill doctors performing legal medical procedures? Or making sure that America remains the only civilized society that thinks its okay to legally kill other human beings if they commit crimes?

Man, sounds like if God were involved there'd be nothing but prayer circles and group hugs...

(Historically speaking, God is the root of far more violence than he is peace. Remember, 9/11 was done in the name of God).

Tell me were you ever in the military? I doubt you were........... There is an old saying about "There no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole when your being shot at/underfire!"

Ah, yes - nothing like the worst of humanity to prove the existence of an all-loving God... the gist of that saying is that, when scared shitless, people will believe any BS to help them get through.

If that fact makes you feel superior to me, then God help you.

[Sam]

So if your child is in the minority you wantt to hold everyone back?

I didn't realize we all had to accept the religion of the majority....

Only allowing the Pledge of Allegiance and perhaps a silent momet for prayer or meditation!

As long as the Pledge doesn't recognize God then I'm not concerned.

Only allowing the Pledge of Allegiance and perhaps a silent momet for prayer or meditation!

I notice you did not mention why it was ok for GOVERMENT SCHOOLS to make a special place for muslim children ?? Is fair to everyone elses child including yours to be discriminated against for such. religious purposes?

I didn't mention it because I haven't heard or read about it. But even so, allowing children a place to practice their personal religion is different than a teacher or administrator endorsing one.

Wait this is the same person that claim discrimmination based soley on skin color is WRONG! Yet approves of "Affirmative Action".....

Yeah.., and??? It's not my fault that you can't grasp how the two are different. One is about repression, the other about attempting to undo the damage of that repression. As I've said consistently, when all things are euqal, I would be against such programs.

After all you are so afraid your child MIGHT learn to believe differently than you do...or your child might be OFFENDED? Are you wanting the school to give your child condoms? What's the next item to give them...clean needles ?? BLEEP PC!!!

I'm not concerned that my child might believe something different than me - that's their choice. I'm also not concerned that my child might get offended - that's part of living in a free society. The only issue that concerns me is when notion of "God" is given credibility by governmental authority figures.

Would you be upset if the schooll your children went to added the word "under Satan" to the pledge? According to your logic that should be A-okay.

I'm not really sure how condoms or needles relate to my objection to state endorsement of one belief system over another.

One thing for sure WHEN GOD WAS IN SCHOOL.... there were no Columbines! I would rather have God in school and have live children and offended people than alot of dead children and live children living and dealing with the trauma of the event and fears of it happening again!

Right... it's the lack of God that is the problem. I guess your point is that if God were involved, those two boys would be too busy being molested by priests to ever get a gun? Good thing sexual abuse doesn't cause trauma or lingering fear.

Or maybe you mean that all the kids would be busy worrying about whether homosexuals are going to destroy the "sanctity" of marriage? Or perhaps wrapped up planning the best way to kill doctors performing legal medical procedures? Or making sure that America remains the only civilized society that thinks its okay to legally kill other human beings if they commit crimes?

Man, sounds like if God were involved there'd be nothing but prayer circles and group hugs...

(Historically speaking, God is the root of far more violence than he is peace. Remember, 9/11 was done in the name of God).

Tell me were you ever in the military? I doubt you were........... There is an old saying about "There no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole when your being shot at/underfire!"

Ah, yes - nothing like the worst of humanity to prove the existence of an all-loving God... the gist of that saying is that, when scared shitless, people will believe any BS to help them get through.

If that fact makes you feel superior to me, then God help you.

I can only say nothing like trying to talk to a left wing extremist such as yourself appears to be. I dunno if you are or are not though.

I mentioned nothing about ANY religion or the acceptance there of, being anything!

I asked you a simple enough question that you dodged the answer !

If you don't love this country enough or respect the Flag that represents it, then don't say it! Don't force everyone else into your view. The same Flag so many have fought and died,bled and sacrificed for and continue to do so!

Nope you don't have to say it. You can disrepect all you want because so many served and are serving to give you that RIGHT...along with a Supreme Court ruling allowing you the RIGHT to burn the Flag if you choose.

I pointed out that when God was in school there never was a Columbine!
Maybe having God in school was not the answer to those who think like you but no children were killed or injured or any losses were suffered or parents and teachers living in fear of similiar attacks.

You cannot even try to debate the point so what do you... bring up Catholic priests and the problems The Catholic Church has with some priests.


Perhaps if your scenario was correct, all of those at Columbine would still be alive and only two boys would be needing help instead of so many people grieving for the losses of friends and family and so many more living and fearing it to happen again.

Perhaps if those two boys HAD BEEN in a Catholic school they MIGHT have been molested....I do not know.... But tell us in how many Catholic schools in America have there been any "Columbines"?

I said nothing about teaching or endorsing any religion! I only said the word GOD! The SAME GOD THAT OUR NATIONS FOUNDING FATHERS CLEARLY BELIEVED IN!

You clearly avoided that.
No one but you mentioned prayer circles or group hugs or...whatever! While you want to allow muslims in school and on school property a "mosque" ( if you will allow he term for now ) you make fun of the way some Christians worship...

You have a problem with teachers and students in GOVERMENT SCHOOLS saying God and saying OUR Pledge of Allegiance in Goverment schools,etc. but you have no problems with the GOVERMENT SCHOOLS making a special place for muslim students to do their worship? That is goverment acknowledgement of religion and if you say it is not, then how is it different just from people saying the word God, and no mention any specific religion?

You have no problem allowing muslim students to be excused from classes to attend organised muslim religion events on school property during school hours? HMMMMM......

I doubt that you would say that if they were Christian events and the students said God instead of Allah!


Allowing a place to worship on school property is the same as sponsoring a State Religion isn't it? After all you will not allow a moment of silence/meditation prayer for other nondenonminational Christians...in the morning in the "free time in homeroom" Nor would you allow the word God to be said...in the Pledge of Allgiance...or even a prayer before a school sporting event.......

You are the one with the clear double standards here .... Seems Affirmative action falls under discrimination and racism to me....You can deny it all you like with all your feel shame to be an American! Look up the words in the dictionary. One repression to equal out the other is that what you say? That two wrongs equal a RIGHT?

Tell me how you plan on discrimination to end when everyone is free to do as they choose. People discrinate all the time........ in their choice of music or clothing or type/brand of cars ,in what they eat or won't eat,hairstyles, cats or dogs or whatever! ETC.,ETC.,ETC!

There are many Irish and Italians that have faced discrimination, and no doubt many others have as well! Where is your shame for what they suffered and went through?

You are the one taking it to extremes.
Let me know when you actually are going to be reasonable.
Your logic is flawed and you know it....It is OUR NATION and read the FOUNDING FATHERS writings they clearly believed in God and mentioned God and no particuliar religion was mentioned.

You are the one that claimed to be reasonable and wanted a better America...I can see you only want it better so it fits YOUR PC vision... as I said the Nazis, Stalinists, the former U.S.S.R., North Korea,and others had/have their version of PC too! and that is where it will take us if we are not careful and you have your way!

The have and have nots have always been with us...... so have the BLEEPING JERKS! The world will never conform to your ideals but we can try to make it a better place......I don't conside all this trying to make people "feel good/feel shame " will ever help in bringing it about and will have dire consequences! Perhaps someone thought it to be a good thing with good intentions.......is has gone overboard!

You got God OUT of school and now free condoms IN school. What's next?
Understand now?

God is not the root of the 9/11 attacks....Fanatical fundamentalist muslims extremists caused the attacks !

You can call it BS all you want... let me know when you have taken the Oath and served and sweated and ached and sacrified ( like that will ever happen), buddy! Until then...watch your bubble close!

I never I said I felt superior to you or anyone else...there you go again...and since you brought it up...may God or Allah or the Goddess or God by anyother name, help you and bless you!

BTW for those of you that are so anti God / the word God,....please send me all of your U.S. money! I am sure you feel terrible about having to touch and handle it since it has "God" on it! I will gladly take that burden and problem away from you!away from you!

[captainjoe]

God is not the root of the 9/11 attacks....Fanatical fundamentalist muslims extremists caused the attacks !

I believe they could be heard yelling Allah is Great on 9/11 and on the videos of them beheading all the hostages in Iraq.

The simple fact is that we have the separation of church and state for a reason. What a child does in their free time is their business, not mine. If they want to say a prayer to themselves as they walk down the hall, so be it. This is just another issue that is used to divide this country. Faith based initatives should be stopped. Say for example, the government is giving free money to Baptist Churches to give out during their services, since I am not a Baptist, how is that fair to me? Why should I have to go to a place that I do not believe in just to get free money? The only fair way would be to give them to all churches. Separation of church and state was designed so we do not have holy wars in the US. Look at countries that do not separate church and state. Iran comes to mind.

Sam, would you like it if the Pledge said ". . .one nation under God, Allah, Jehovah, Budda, Satan etc. . ."

To say that we did not have Columbine-like shootings before is not realy fair because we lived in a totaly different world. Look at how much violence is on tv and at the movies. Look at the drugs kids can get now. I would be willing to bet that not all children were god fearing kids before Columbine. A lot of kids grew up without god in their lives and never shot anyone.

If you look back through time, how many of our wars been caused by organized religion? Look at the Crusades. Look at the termoil in the Middle East today. That is all about religion.

Relgion is a powerful tool if it is used properly. Living like Jesus would not be a bad thing. Treating people as you would like to be treated and thou shall not kill are two things that are kind of nice. But it is when the people of a religion start to think that it is their god given right to make others see it their way is when the wheels start to fall off.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; . . .

[meisinger]

Sam, I'm not an athiest, but you're getting killed here. Just let it go. The more you go on, the sillier you sound.

[tommcat327]

gotta be better than a yankee sitting in a southern jail for being an atheist

Just tell 'em about your gun collection and I'm sure they'd embrace you like a brother.

good thinkin lee

[tommcat327]

One thing for sure WHEN GOD WAS IN SCHOOL.... there were no Columbines!

I would rather have God in school and have live children and offended people, than alot of dead children and teachers and live children, living and dealing with the trauma of the event and fears of it happening again! OR other parents and schools and students fearing such events.


Tell me were you ever in the military? I doubt you were........... There is an old saying about "There is no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole when your being shot at/underfire!"

sam,i'm usually on your side but that is just ridiculous.i am an atheist and can assure you i would still be if in a foxhole
and you cant tell me that you honestly believe that if those idiots in columbine had been religious that wouldnt have happened.i know you're smarter than that sam

[Sam]

One thing for sure WHEN GOD WAS IN SCHOOL.... there were no Columbines!

I would rather have God in school and have live children and offended people, than alot of dead children and teachers and live children, living and dealing with the trauma of the event and fears of it happening again! OR other parents and schools and students fearing such events.


Tell me were you ever in the military? I doubt you were........... There is an old saying about "There is no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole when your being shot at/underfire!"

sam,i'm usually on your side but that is just ridiculous.i am an atheist and can assure you i would still be if in a foxhole
and you cant tell me that you honestly believe that if those idiots in columbine had been religious that wouldnt have happened.i know you're smarter than that sam

Bro,
I never said that if the perpetrators at Columbine were religous it would not have happened!

I only said "Columbines" never happened before,when God was allowed in school! Can you name me one case where it did?
And I asked how many Columbines occurred in Catholic schools! Can you name one or more?
You reach your own conclusions..I know that if you remove or add something from or to an equation and you get a constant answer then either that removal or addition proves something...

If it was not God then, from the equation that seems to be the only constant involved.....then what about Catholic schools? You are welcome to draw your own conclusions. I am making no claims. Only raising questions.

You might well be in the foxhole,......but .......the saying is there and there is much truth in it! Granted that a are exceptions to most every saying....many others who have been there, created that saying long before you or I were thought of many years ago when they were "baptised under fire".

I find it much easier to believe and accept the word of men who have actually been there done that and served and survived and KNOW what they are talking about,...than from the words of people who have never been there and have no clue but only think they know.

I mean no insult to you at all. That is a general statement!

I stand by my statements I would rather have God in school and a few offended people than dead children and mourning families and friends and others suffering various wounds and traunas and fears.

IF it was not God, then let us find out what it was and put it back something was removed from the equation....that caused it or could prevent future "Columbines"!

[Key Lime Lee]

Might be the first time in history that someone is accused of being a left-wing extremist for a STRICTER interpretation of the constitution.

You have a problem with teachers and students in GOVERMENT SCHOOLS saying God and saying OUR Pledge of Allegiance in Goverment schools,etc. but you have no problems with the GOVERMENT SCHOOLS making a special place for muslim students to do their worship? That is goverment acknowledgement of religion and if you say it is not, then how is it different just from people saying the word God, and no mention any specific religion?

"God", by definition, implies a set of beliefs. If it didn't, you wouldn't give a hoot if it was there or not.

And there's still a very real difference between ALLOWING children to practice their individual beliefs and requiring them to acknowledge someone else's. It's about individual expression versus the state mandating the recognition of a religion.

You have no problem allowing muslim students to be excused from classes to attend organised muslim religion events on school property during school hours? HMMMMM......

I doubt that you would say that if they were Christian events and the students said God instead of Allah!

You would be wrong. Again, it's about individual expression versus the state mandating the recognition of a religion.

Allowing a place to worship on school property is the same as sponsoring a State Religion isn't it?

Nope. Individual expression versus the state mandating the recognition of a religion.

After all you will not allow a moment of silence/meditation prayer for other nondenonminational Christians...in the morning in the "free time in homeroom" Nor would you allow the word God to be said...in the Pledge of Allgiance...or even a prayer before a school sporting event

Moment of silence is religion-neutral - doesn't bother me in the slightest.

One repression to equal out the other is that what you say?

Affirmative action is an attempt to compensate for the disproportionate disadvantage that African-Americans face. It's by no means perfect, but until someone comes up with a better plan or until everyone starts relatively equal...

There are many Irish and Italians that have faced discrimination, and no doubt many others have as well! Where is your shame for what they suffered and went through?

Are you really equating brief episodes of ethnic discrimination with 200+ years of black oppression? Unf***ing believable.
Personally I think the cases of Sacco & Vanzetti or the Rosenbergs are shameful as well... but they pale in comparison to the ongoing racism and discrimination in this country.

as I said the Nazis, Stalinists, the former U.S.S.R., North Korea,and others had/have their version of PC too! and that is where it will take us if we are not careful and you have your way!

See, now I see forcing kids to say the pledge and to recognize God as EXACTLY the sort of Machiavellian thing that dictators would do. I'm advocating a religion-neutral state that allows individuals the freedom to believe what they want. Individual expression versus the state mandating the recognition of a religion.

You got God OUT of school and now free condoms IN school. What's next?
Understand now?

God out of schools is about separation of church and state. Condoms in schools is about public health. The two are not related.

God is not the root of the 9/11 attacks....Fanatical fundamentalist muslims extremists caused the attacks !

Fanatical fundamentalist muslims extremists who believe they're doing the work of God. How do we know they're God is wrong and yours is right?

let me know when you have taken the Oath and served and sweated and ached and sacrified ( like that will ever happen), buddy!

Yeah - you're right. Because of my views on the separation of church and state, you already know that I would NEVER sacrifice for my country. Give me a break.

[Key Lime Lee]

If it was not God then, from the equation that seems to be the only constant involved.....

Only if one ignores all other social influences and external factors.

Ask Tomm - he knows the problem is lack of gun control, not the lack of god.

[a1aara]

This is easy. There shouild be a complete seperation of church and state.

[tommcat327]

If it was not God then, from the equation that seems to be the only constant involved.....

Only if one ignores all other social influences and external factors.

Ask Tomm - he knows the problem is lack of gun control, not the lack of god.

THE PROBLEM IS LACK OF GUNS CONTROLLED BY LAW ABIDING CITIZENS,IF THERE WERE MORE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS CARRYING THEN THERE WOULD BE LESS CRIME,I BET MY LIFE ON THAT

[LIPH]

I find it much easier to believe and accept the word of men who have actually been there done that and served and survived and KNOW what they are talking about,...than from the words of people who have never been there and have no clue but only think they know.

So I guess that means you're voting for Kerry today?

[tommcat327]

Bro,
I never said that if the perpetrators at Columbine were religous it would not have happened!

I only said "Columbines" never happened before,when God was allowed in school! Can you name me one case where it did?
And I asked how many Columbines occurred in Catholic schools! Can you name one or more?
You reach your own conclusions..I know that if you remove or add something from or to an equation and you get a constant answer then either that removal or addition proves something.

I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BELIEVE FOR ONE SECOND THAT REMOVING GOD FROM SCHOOLS HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE VIOLENCE THAT IS THERE NOW.(ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOD )RELIGION HAS CAUSED MORE PAIN AND DEATH IN THE WORLD THAN IT HAS EVER PREVENTED.

[tommcat327]

I find it much easier to believe and accept the word of men who have actually been there done that and served and survived and KNOW what they are talking about,...than from the words of people who have never been there and have no clue but only think they know.

So I guess that means you're voting for Kerry today?

SINCE WHEN HAS KERRY KNOWN WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT?

[Key Lime Lee]

I find it much easier to believe and accept the word of men who have actually been there done that and served and survived and KNOW what they are talking about,...than from the words of people who have never been there and have no clue but only think they know.

So I guess that means you're voting for Kerry today?

Funnier because it's coming from you, Larry!