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Posted: March 24, 2005 1:37 pm
by Sam
Note what this neurologist from the Mayo Clinic says... so the possibility is there that the other doctors were wrong....
I made it in bold and italics....

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http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewCulture.asp ... 0324a.html

State Told Not to Enforce Law Protecting Terri Schiavo
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
March 24, 2005

(CNSNews.com) - The Florida judge presiding over the Terri Schiavo case ordered the state agency charged with protecting vulnerable adults to make no attempt to take the brain-injured woman into protective custody late Wednesday. The order appears to be in direct contradiction to a state statute that requires the agency to act.

Mayo Clinic neurologist Dr. William Cheshire -- who is also a member of the Florida's Adult Protective Services team -- said late Wednesday that Terri Schiavo "may have been misdiagnosed" by one court appointed doctor and two other physicians chosen by Michael Schiavo.

Those three doctors declared Terri to be in a persistent vegetative state (PVS), but Cheshire said, based on his examination of Terri and review of her records, she is more likely in a minimally conscious state (MCS). The term is a new diagnostic description that has come into acceptance since Terri was last examined.

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said the new information "raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action.

"Terri is now going on her sixth day without food or water," Gov. Bush told reporters Wednesday afternoon. "It is imperative that she be stabilized so that the adult protective services team can fulfill their statutory duty and thoroughly review all the facts surrounding her case."

One member of the media asked if the state Department of Children and Families (DCF) planned to take Terri Schiavo into protective custody, remove her from the hospice where she is being dehydrated and starved to death or try to reinsert her feeding and hydration tube.

"We are looking at every potential opportunity to be of assistance," replied DCF Secretary Lucy Hadi.

That response apparently prompted the attorney for Terri's estranged husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, to contact Pinellas County Circuit Court Judge George Greer, requesting a court order barring the state from acting. Noted "right-to-die" attorney, author and activist George Felos argued during a court hearing later Wednesday that DCF had "no more power than ... a person walking down the street," to place Terri in protective custody.

"Any action would be a violation of Mrs. Schiavo's constitutional right to refuse medical treatment. It would be a violation of her civil rights. It would be an assault, a battery, a trespass on her," Felos argued, following his assessment with a threat aimed at DCF officials, "and, should that occur and should that be attempted, we will hold those to the fullest extent of the law."

But Florida statute 415.1051 seems to contradict Felos' claim.

The statute states, "If it appears that the vulnerable adult ... is likely to incur a risk of death or serious physical injury if such person is not immediately removed from the premises, then the representative of the department shall transport or arrange for the transportation of the vulnerable adult to an appropriate medical or protective services facility in order to provide emergency protective services."

Jennifer Lima-Smith, an attorney for the DCF, reminded Greer that the agency does not need his permission in advance to act.

"The law allows the department to exercise both emergency protective services -- intervention and emergency removal -- either one or both," Lima-Smith told Greer.

The statute also appears to specifically exempt DCF from an otherwise enforceable mandate to seek Michael Schiavo's permission to remove Terri.

"If the vulnerable adult's caregiver or guardian is present, the protective investigator must seek the caregiver's or guardian's consent ... before the vulnerable adult may be removed from the premises," the law states, "unless the protective investigator suspects that the vulnerable adult's caregiver or guardian has caused the abuse, neglect, or exploitation."

The only authorization or requirement for the involvement of the courts in an emergency intervention or removal comes after DCF has taken its action. "The department shall, within 24 hours after providing or arranging for emergency removal of the vulnerable adult, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and legal holidays, petition the court for an order authorizing emergency protective services."

Nonetheless, Greer rebuked the agency, ordering it not to attempt to enforce the state law.

"Since it appears imminent that the department is likely to do something in contravention of that rule of law, this court is going to grant the oral motion," Greer said. "DCF is hereby restrained from taking possession of Theresa Marie Schiavo or removing her from Hospice Woodside, administer (sic) nutrition or hydration artificially or otherwise interfere (sic) with this court's final judgment."

That final portion of Greer's oral order seems to contradict yet another portion of the statute, entitled "Emergency medical treatment."

"If, upon admission to a medical facility, it is the opinion of the medical staff that immediate medical treatment is necessary to prevent serious physical injury or death, and that such treatment does not violate a known health care advance directive prepared by the vulnerable adult," the statute states, "the medical facility may proceed with treatment to the vulnerable adult."

Terri Schiavo has no such advance directive.

At approximately 11:00 p.m. EST, attorneys for Terri Schiavo's parents filed a 40-plus page request for an emergency injunction with the U.S. Supreme Court. The pleading asks the justices to order Terri's feeding and hydration tube reinserted while the lower federal courts conduct a completely new trial of the facts in the case. That review was mandated by special legislation passed by Congress and signed into law by President George W. Bush earlier in the week.

Posted: March 24, 2005 1:51 pm
by captainjoe
PHBeerman wrote:
captainjoe wrote:
PHBeerman wrote:Here's a list of the losers we need to send to Texas.

http://corrections.state.id.us/facts/death_row.htm

Note: My wife served on the jury of Darrell Payne. He is one sick bastard.
Are you sure that was a woman? I know it said there was one woman on the Idaho Death Row, but damn, she is fugly! :winch:
Don't make fun of Shane's mom like that.
Let me see if I remember everything right . . . was she the woman who "fell" into the ape pit at the Idaho State Zoo then proceeded to have "sex" with the "male" ape?

Posted: March 24, 2005 1:54 pm
by PHBeerman
PLEASE READ THIS:
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/06/Tampa ... sts_.shtml


Note Links make post shorter :wink:

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:02 pm
by captainjoe
That was a good article. I wish that I could live with a soon to be famous rock star!

I just wish a lot of politicians would take his lead. On both sides of the aisle!

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:03 pm
by PHBeerman
captainjoe wrote:That was a good article. I wish that I could live with a soon to be famous rock star!

I just wish a lot of politicians would take his lead. On both sides of the aisle!
I hope that Wino read the ELECTED part.

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:04 pm
by a1aara
PHBeerman wrote:
a1aara wrote: PHBerman....Do you agree with everything that conservatives believe in or support?
Not even close. But I do enjoy sending a shot over the fence whenever possible. :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote


I hear what you're saying. :D

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:06 pm
by a1aara
PHBeerman wrote:PLEASE READ THIS:
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/06/Tampa ... sts_.shtml


Note Links make post shorter :wink:
Cool article. :D

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:12 pm
by comemonday
a1aara wrote:
PHBeerman wrote:PLEASE READ THIS:
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/06/Tampa ... sts_.shtml


Note Links make post shorter :wink:
Cool article. :D
Exactly what I was going to say. 8)

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:21 pm
by Tiki Bar
FFishstick wrote:
rednekkPH wrote:
Key Lime Lee wrote:I still think it's one of the friendliest groups around...
I agree wholeheartedly, however with the caveat that you get out of it what put into it. If someone comes running in acting like a complete a$$, they best expect to be treated as such.
Oh, so I have your permission to treat you like a complete a$$!! Thanks.
I guess your tunnelvision may prevent you from seeing / enjoying some of the amazing friendliness and generousity around these parts. :roll:

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:26 pm
by a1aara
Talk Show Host Beck Offers To 'Buy' Terri Schiavo
March 22, 2005
By Ken Tucker






Syndicated talk show host Glenn Beck has offered embattled Florida man Michael Schiavo, whose wife, Terri, is the subject of national debate, $5 million to “buy her” away from him.

"I call it a divorce settlement," Beck told the Rochester (N.Y.) Democrat-Chronicle. "He has turned it down. We're offering it to him if he will release his wife, divorce her, and give guardianship rights to her parents. My associate called (Monday), and (Michael Schiavo) hung up." Beck was in Rochester for a book signing.

Beck, who lived in Tampa, Fla., at one time, told the paper that he has a "very long history" with Michael Schiavo, but that the two are not on speaking terms now.

Originally, Beck said, he sided with Michael Schiavo, who wants his wife’s feeding tube to remain disconnected, but the more he looked into the case, he realized "there were too many questions out there to not err on the side of life."

The $5 million Beck offered came from pledges from listeners and, while Beck said he will continue to accept pledges, he said he really wants listeners to appeal to elected officials "who can do something about this."

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:35 pm
by Elrod
Tiki Bar wrote:I guess your tunnelvision may prevent you from seeing / enjoying some of the amazing friendliness and generousity around these parts. :roll:
http://www.buffettnews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12228

Posted: March 24, 2005 2:42 pm
by MojosMama
Sam wrote:
MojosMama wrote:"She's not physically ill, other than being brain damaged,"

:o :o :o Isn't that enough? :o :o :o
Are you saying it is ok, to intentionally starving and dehydrating an innocent person to death because they have brain damage?
Down boy. My comment was actually pointed at how ridiculous Not ill - OTHER THAN THE BRAIN DAMAGE is. I, personally, find brain damage to be a pretty significant diagnosis.

And yeah, I believe that this woman should be allowed to die. Funny to me that some think that letting her pass is inhumane.....my vote is letting the suffering continue for another 15 years is the true cruelty.

Posted: March 24, 2005 3:13 pm
by Sam
MojosMama wrote:
Sam wrote:
MojosMama wrote:"She's not physically ill, other than being brain damaged,"

:o :o :o Isn't that enough? :o :o :o
Are you saying it is ok, to intentionally starving and dehydrating an innocent person to death because they have brain damage?
Down boy. My comment was actually pointed at how ridiculous Not ill - OTHER THAN THE BRAIN DAMAGE is. I, personally, find brain damage to be a pretty significant diagnosis.

And yeah, I believe that this woman should be allowed to die. Funny to me that some think that letting her pass is inhumane.....my vote is letting the suffering continue for another 15 years is the true cruelty.
I did not mean any insult to you.... my apologies if any were percieved on your part!

Eventually, she is going to die as all of us will. What me and others have a problem with is the intentional starvation and dehydration of an innocent person. Did she ever make statements about living in this sort of condition? I have no idea.
I can only say again I have reasonable doubt about her wishes as stated by her husband who waited over 8 years to recall such a conversation and the only apparent witness are his family.

It has been shown that she may have been misdiagnosed.

It has been shown that she can feel pain.

Since she can feel pain ...what else can she feel?

Tell me if she is not, inside how she can be suffering.....so many people say ( not saying you ) that she is not inside and then claim they want to end her suffering.

Will you please tell me what is humane about intentionally starving and dehydrating a person to death....?

Posted: March 24, 2005 3:29 pm
by Lightning Bolt
Sam wrote: ....Eventually, she is going to die as all of us will. What me and others have a problem with is the intentional starvation and dehydration of an innocent person. Did she ever make statements about living in this sort of condition? I have no idea. Her husband and the Courts agree that she has.
I can only say again I have reasonable doubt about her wishes as stated by her husband who waited over 8 years to recall such a conversation and the only apparent witness are his family.Again, not your call. Not even the President of the United States' call.

It has been shown that she may have been misdiagnosed.
Yesterday, suspiciously, by a neurologist who viewed videotapes!

It has been shown that she can feel pain.
Claimed by a nurse, now fired, and confirmed by no others.

Since she can feel pain ...what else can she feel?
Wrong. Feels nothing. Is not suffering, like you would like to make us feel.

Tell me if she is not, inside how she can be suffering.....so many people say ( not saying you ) that she is not inside and then claim they want to end her suffering.
A lot of smart people keep trying, you choose to remain ignorant

Will you please tell me what is humane about intentionally starving and dehydrating a person to death....?
When doctors concur that there is no hope for recovery, and the spouse gives consent.
What is humane about leaving a vegetative person alive for the sake of just "being there", like some kind of breathing pet rock?
Don't bother answering this, as I realize you choose not to recognize any opinion besides your own.

Posted: March 24, 2005 3:30 pm
by Blonde Stranger
Sorry Sam, but it has not been shown that she has been misdiagnosed and it has not been shown that she can feel pain. It has been 15 years of nothing but consistent medical diagnoses from neutral court-appointed doctors. Even the Schindler's doctors have acknowledged her condition. You are wrong.

Posted: March 24, 2005 3:45 pm
by Sam
Lightening Bolt
After your previous response and all of your smilies...I saw it was nonsensical to respond to you about this....again you respond in such manner albeit without the smilies. I see nothing funny about the intentional starving and dehydration of someone or some animal.

BTW the post you responded to was to someone else....I already saw and read your answers.



Blonde Stranger,
I beg to differ, read my earlier postings from today... A nurse that actually was with Terri clearly said Terri could feel pain and they would give her motrin during her monthly(menstrual) cycle.

There is also a link to a video clip of the nurse giving her statements.

A neurologist from the Mayo Clinic has clearly stated that she may have been misdiagnosed......

Prove to me they have lied about Terri and her condition and you will have proved your point and I will admit I am wrong.

No one has ever come forward and said doctors or the courts are 100% right. We have demonstrated that with the evidence of innocent people on death row being cleared.

Posted: March 24, 2005 4:06 pm
by Blonde Stranger
Sam wrote:Lightening Bolt
After your previous response and all of your smilies...I saw it was nonsensical to respond to you about this....again you respond in such manner albeit without the smilies. I see nothing funny about the intentional starving and dehydration of someone or some animal.

BTW the post you responded to was to someone else....I already saw and read your answers.



Blonde Stranger,
I beg to differ, read my earlier postings freom today... A nurse that actually was with Terri clearly said Terri could feel pain and they would give her motrin during her monthly(menstrual) cycle.

There is also a link to a video clip of the nurse giving her statements.

A neurologist from the Mayo Clinic has clearly stated that she may have been misdiagnosed......

Prove to me they have lied about Terri and her condition and you will have proved your point and I will admit I am wrong.

No one has ever come forward and said doctors or the courts are 100% right. We have demonstrated that with the evidence of innocent people on death row being cleared.
As I posted earlier in this thread, the nurses' affidavits were found by the judge to be not credible. You can read his opinion here:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0903.pdf

That neurologist from the Mayo Clinic can hardly be considered neutral:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/11215365.htm

Look hard enough, and you'll find doubt about ANYTHING in this world. I am simply sick to death of the failure to acknowledge the OVERWHELMING FACTS about her medical condition and the unfair and baseless treatment of her husband and that there is some vast nebulous conspiracy to overrule her parents at any cost. It is ludicrous.

What would happen if Terri Schiavo's parents had found a document written by her that said without dispute that she did not want to live in the manner in which she has for the past 15 years. If her parents honored her wishes and removed the tube with the agreement of her spouse, why shouldn't they be labeled as murderers? In your view, they would be.

For that mattter, would directing removal of one's own feeding/hydration tube by use of a written direction and another person as proxy not be considered suicide? Why not?

Is there a moral difference between refusing life-sustaining treatment and directing its withdrawal after the treatment has already commenced?

Posted: March 24, 2005 4:17 pm
by Lightning Bolt
Thanks, Blonde!

I was beginning to think that it was only MYSELF
who was beating his head against the wall with this person

Sam, I hope you can find a way to go on once this unfortunate episode ends :)

Posted: March 24, 2005 5:40 pm
by ph4ever
Did anyone hear anything about threats being made regarding the outcome of this case??


It made no sense to me at all so I thought I would see if anyone else heard it.


To me that makes as much sense as a right to life group bombing an abortion clinic, killing abortion doctors.

Posted: March 24, 2005 5:45 pm
by Sam
Blonde Stranger wrote:
Sam wrote:Lightening Bolt
After your previous response and all of your smilies...I saw it was nonsensical to respond to you about this....again you respond in such manner albeit without the smilies. I see nothing funny about the intentional starving and dehydration of someone or some animal.

BTW the post you responded to was to someone else....I already saw and read your answers.



Blonde Stranger,
I beg to differ, read my earlier postings freom today... A nurse that actually was with Terri clearly said Terri could feel pain and they would give her motrin during her monthly(menstrual) cycle.

There is also a link to a video clip of the nurse giving her statements.

A neurologist from the Mayo Clinic has clearly stated that she may have been misdiagnosed......

Prove to me they have lied about Terri and her condition and you will have proved your point and I will admit I am wrong.

No one has ever come forward and said doctors or the courts are 100% right. We have demonstrated that with the evidence of innocent people on death row being cleared.
As I posted earlier in this thread, the nurses' affidavits were found by the judge to be not credible. You can read his opinion here:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0903.pdf

That neurologist from the Mayo Clinic can hardly be considered neutral:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/11215365.htm

Look hard enough, and you'll find doubt about ANYTHING in this world. I am simply sick to death of the failure to acknowledge the OVERWHELMING FACTS about her medical condition and the unfair and baseless treatment of her husband and that there is some vast nebulous conspiracy to overrule her parents at any cost. It is ludicrous.

What would happen if Terri Schiavo's parents had found a document written by her that said without dispute that she did not want to live in the manner in which she has for the past 15 years. If her parents honored her wishes and removed the tube with the agreement of her spouse, why shouldn't they be labeled as murderers? In your view, they would be.

For that mattter, would directing removal of one's own feeding/hydration tube by use of a written direction and another person as proxy not be considered suicide? Why not?

Is there a moral difference between refusing life-sustaining treatment and directing its withdrawal after the treatment has already commenced?
By all means tell us who is or can be neutral in this situation...once she is dead...she is dead....and that will be final and leave people wondering ....at least I have no part in the support of the taking of an innocent woman's life..... Can YOU say for a fact you know her condition....or are you only taking the word of doctors you personally know?

I am merely giving my opinion and my feelings just as I am sure you are giving yours.....How many times can one make a mistake with a life and death issue.

IF Terri is not inside she cannot be suffering.

Can I prove where Terri is beyond a reasonable doubt? No I have never met her... but I DO maintain the RIGHT to express my opinion on her situation.

Can I prove she never or did make the claims that her hudband said she did?? No Can you ?

Others besides myself have clearly shown that the courts and doctors are not always Right.

Do you feel it that intentionally starving and dehydrating someone or some animal to death is humane treatment?

Terri is alive ( at least in the in the basic definition of the word)...where will this go from here? She breathes on her own....