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I googled and watched a video of clubbings.
Pretty brutal and I don't really consider myself much of an animal lover.
I suppose there could be a better way, something quicker.

I am not pro-killing any sentient being.

Lightning Bolt wrote:Seals obviously provide food products and furs that are used by the native population to clothe themselves and to create income through their sale, and
it's been that way LONG BEFORE you or me existed. I don't see where imminent danger of extinction is a pressing issue here, so what's the real beef other than it is SO CRUEL

News bulletin: Life ain't fair... Grow up.

If you just can't live with this, you're just gonna be facing a lot more disappointment, I'm afraid

I fail to see how insulting someone adds credibility to you position. If you have an opinion by all means share it, but there is no need for cynicism.

I certainly won't argue that it's a cruel and gruesome execution.
I don't even try to watch it, because it is disturbing.
But it's really no different than when we "harvest" beef, chicken, ... lamb is especially cruel. Whale hunting is terrible-looking, heck, have you ever been to a bull-fight?!
It's downright brutal at the end (which, you notice, is never shown).

It's just overly idealistic and frankly, naive to think we have a right to simply stop an ages-old industry.
Hey, I don't wear or eat seal. What business is it of ours to intrude? You just got to pick your fights... and that's my two cents worth

UAHparrothead wrote:

Lightning Bolt wrote:Seals obviously provide food products and furs that are used by the native population to clothe themselves and to create income through their sale, and
it's been that way LONG BEFORE you or me existed. I don't see where imminent danger of extinction is a pressing issue here, so what's the real beef other than it is SO CRUEL

News bulletin: Life ain't fair... Grow up.

If you just can't live with this, you're just gonna be facing a lot more disappointment, I'm afraid

I fail to see how insulting someone adds credibility to you position. If you have an opinion by all means share it, but there is no need for cynicism.

Sorry if you find that so offensive, but I feel strongly enough about this kind of conservationist bleeding-heart BS to be strong-willed in my assertion.
You know where I stand on this one, and I'll face the arrows.

Lightning Bolt wrote:

UAHparrothead wrote:

Lightning Bolt wrote:Seals obviously provide food products and furs that are used by the native population to clothe themselves and to create income through their sale, and
it's been that way LONG BEFORE you or me existed. I don't see where imminent danger of extinction is a pressing issue here, so what's the real beef other than it is SO CRUEL

News bulletin: Life ain't fair... Grow up.

If you just can't live with this, you're just gonna be facing a lot more disappointment, I'm afraid

I fail to see how insulting someone adds credibility to you position. If you have an opinion by all means share it, but there is no need for cynicism.

Sorry if you find that so offensive, but I feel strongly enough about this kind of conservationist bleeding-heart BS to be strong-willed in my assertion.
You know where I stand on this one, and I'll face the arrows.

Not your opinion but your insinuation that Moonie hasn't "grown up" because she feels just as strongly about her side as you do about yours. My point being let's have a debate without being smartasses.

Lightning Bolt wrote: It's just overly idealistic and frankly, naive to think we have a right to simply stop an ages-old industry.
Hey, I don't wear or eat seal. What business is it of ours to intrude? You just got to pick your fights... and that's my two cents worth

Not that I am comparing the two institutions but the same was said about slavery about 250 years ago. My point being just because it is an "ages-old" industry doesn't mean that 1) it is a good industry and 2) that it should not/cannot be changed.

UAHparrothead wrote:what purpose does clubbing a seal serve, other than simply killing something? Deer are harvested because 1) they have few natural perdators 2) they provide a clean, healthy source of protein, same for other wild game. I see no purpose in clubbing a seal of any age.

..and I see you have stated your opinion as well, and
I'll agree to disagree in regards toward your stance on the seals.

play on...

I am an avid hunter and shooter. I don't see this as hunting when you just walk up and a club a young animal to death. Then again many people do not understand what it takes to make a clean kill with a rifle at any distance.

When a cow is killed and butchered and turned into whatever cuts of meat....pretty much the whole animal is used. From food to making leather tp making pet food. If the indigenous peoples MUST rely upon them for food is one thing, however how much meat and food can a cub seal provide?

Lately I have taken up a new form of hunting that is much more difficult,
It involves a camera, I still hunt and shoot. ( Anyone thinks this is easier than taking a shot with a rifle needs to try it...)

If you want to equivocate the clubbling of the cub seals, with the large scale slaughter of animals for meat and food products.....I think you best think again, as the only thing of use from the carcasses of the cub seals is their hides and fur.

Who are we to change these peoples way of life??? Well who are we to fight the war on Terrorism or to stop someone from killing a loved one or committing other attrocities? Is bad conduct appropriate simply because it has went on for XXXX amount of years???
Where does it end??? At the end of a club......??? Take a look at the buffalo/ American Bison. I am not saying the seals are endangered............I am asking when will it stop before they do become so.
There must be a better way than killing the cubs simply for a status symbol and bragging rights. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT SURVIVAL AT ALL!

tikitatas wrote:I am not pro-killing any sentient being.

let me assure you that is nothing like taking a deer with a 30.30..or 30.06..or anything close...

I just can't believe, want to refuse to believe, that anyone can condone this happening...

the pup and the Mother both..are quite aware of what is going on... as are all the seals and pups in the area.....have you never witnessed this slaughter?

Lightning Bolt wrote:I certainly won't argue that it's a cruel and gruesome execution.
I don't even try to watch it, because it is disturbing.
But it's really no different than when we "harvest" beef, chicken, ... lamb is especially cruel. Whale hunting is terrible-looking, heck, have you ever been to a bull-fight?!
It's downright brutal at the end (which, you notice, is never shown).

It's just overly idealistic and frankly, naive to think we have a right to simply stop an ages-old industry.
Hey, I don't wear or eat seal. What business is it of ours to intrude? You just got to pick your fights... and that's my two cents worth

just because it's an ages old industry does not mean that it is right, or that it should continue....

there's nothing to debate, caring, humane people continue to fight to stop the slaughter of these young seals...

nothing is used but the pelt...

don't worry about the disappointments in my life...bleeding heart conservationist? it's been a long time since I've been called any kind of....bleeding heart.....you don't know anything about my politics...


go have a couple of Big Macs...LB..stuff yourself...

sonofabeach wrote:I suppose there could be a better way, something quicker.

President Andrew Shepherd: Let me see if I got this. The third story on the news tonight was that someone I didn't know thirteen years ago when I wasn't president participated in a demonstration where no laws were being broken in protest of something that so many people were against, it doesn't exist anymore. Just out of curiosity, what was the fourth story?

I know its a movie quote but it is true. If enough people are against it eventually it will not exist anymore. It just takes time and enough people.

Moonie wrote:

Lightning Bolt wrote:I certainly won't argue that it's a cruel and gruesome execution.
I don't even try to watch it, because it is disturbing.
But it's really no different than when we "harvest" beef, chicken, ... lamb is especially cruel. Whale hunting is terrible-looking, heck, have you ever been to a bull-fight?!
It's downright brutal at the end (which, you notice, is never shown).

It's just overly idealistic and frankly, naive to think we have a right to simply stop an ages-old industry.
Hey, I don't wear or eat seal. What business is it of ours to intrude? You just got to pick your fights... and that's my two cents worth

just because it's an ages old industry does not mean that it is right, or that it should continue....

there's nothing to debate, caring, humane people continue to fight to stop the slaughter of these young seals...

nothing is used but the pelt...

don't worry about the disappointments in my life...bleeding heart conservationist? it's been a long time since I've been called any kind of....bleeding heart.....you don't know anything about my politics...


go have a couple of Big Macs...LB..stuff yourself...

Nice shot there
Good to see you feel strongly about this also.
Except the caring, humane people you speak of likely are not the Canadien citizens whose country this takes place in. This is their cross to bear, and it is
the Canadien government's support that you have to appeal to.

I only wonder if you have equal empathy toward the near millions of
HUMAN BEINGS who are being starved to death in the Darfur region of the Sudan.
Ever heard about this ongoing tragedy?
Have you written our President to protest this genocide?
I realize they are not cute and furry, and snowy white, but watch some video of these poor people's plight.
Look below at my sig line and think about the thousands of homeless resulting from Katrina. These are causes that really strike me as most tragic.

I do realize you are trying to do a good and noble thing.
I guess I'm really taking issue with the priority of it in the big picture of today.

SharkOnLand wrote:

sonofabeach wrote:I suppose there could be a better way, something quicker.

Lightning Bolt wrote:

Moonie wrote:

Lightning Bolt wrote:I certainly won't argue that it's a cruel and gruesome execution.
I don't even try to watch it, because it is disturbing.
But it's really no different than when we "harvest" beef, chicken, ... lamb is especially cruel. Whale hunting is terrible-looking, heck, have you ever been to a bull-fight?!
It's downright brutal at the end (which, you notice, is never shown).

It's just overly idealistic and frankly, naive to think we have a right to simply stop an ages-old industry.
Hey, I don't wear or eat seal. What business is it of ours to intrude? You just got to pick your fights... and that's my two cents worth

just because it's an ages old industry does not mean that it is right, or that it should continue....

there's nothing to debate, caring, humane people continue to fight to stop the slaughter of these young seals...

nothing is used but the pelt...

don't worry about the disappointments in my life...bleeding heart conservationist? it's been a long time since I've been called any kind of....bleeding heart.....you don't know anything about my politics...


go have a couple of Big Macs...LB..stuff yourself...

Nice shot there
Good to see you feel strongly about this also.
Except the caring, humane people you speak of likely are not the Canadien citizens whose country this takes place in. This is their cross to bear, and it is
the Canadien government's support that you have to appeal to.

I only wonder if you have equal empathy toward the near millions of
HUMAN BEINGS who are being starved to death in the Darfur region of the Sudan.
Ever heard about this ongoing tragedy?
Have you written our President to protest this genocide?
I realize they are not cute and furry, and snowy white, but watch some video of these poor people's plight.
Look below at my sig line and think about the thousands of homeless resulting from Katrina. These are causes that really strike me as most tragic.

I do realize you are trying to do a good and noble thing.
I guess I'm really taking issue with the priority of it in the big picture of today.

I also believe that some people are put on this earth to be stewards of many different things...St.Francis comes to mind...

I work in the Public School system...I donate my time (that's w/o pay), anyone who works in the school system donates of their own free will...bought clothes, given money, etc.

Supporting the HSUS and ASPCA, NWF, and specifically Defenders of Wildlife in their efforts to save wolves in this country, are some the organizations I support and do what I can to promote their efforts.

However, I'd never shoot down yours, or anyones else's attempt to right some of the wrongs..but I don't sit back and blast those that do what they can....I can't save the world..

You've been active in the efforts you mentioned above? other than sending your buck to M'ville for the blue band? Unitl you have actively supported some of the things you mentioned, don't attack me. It's a very small world you live in..if in the big picture...you don't include our furry friends in it...and some not so furry, like whales, and otters, and turtles,...and... and...and...you catch my drift...

I can't replace those houses and homes lost in Katrina..but I can commend the tireless efforts of those Humane Societies that saved as many beloved pets as they did...some had lost everything but being united with some of these pets were enough for them.

Moonie wrote:I don't have any issues with hunting...none...or firearms...own a few myself...but I think this is wrong...

Let me see if I understand this ...

1. Go hunting with a gun. Be lucky enough to find a defenseless animal in the wild. Be a good enough shot to blow its brains out, or maybe not be a good enough shot and only wound it so it suffers terribly until it finally dies from either loss of blood or being attacked by a predator. No issue for you

2. Go hunting with a club. Be lucky enough to find a defenseless animal on an ice floe. Splatter its brains all over the ice and snow with the club. Cruel and inhumane and must be stopped.

The way I see it, the end result of the 2 scenarios is the same, a defenseless animal is killed. The only distinction is the means by which the end is achieved. Maybe it's too nuanced for me and I need someone much wiser than I to explain it, but in the legal profession we call this a distinction without a difference.

sonofabeach wrote:I googled and watched a video of clubbings.
Pretty brutal and I don't really consider myself much of an animal lover.
I suppose there could be a better way, something quicker.

Who put the video on the web?

LIPH wrote:

Moonie wrote:I don't have any issues with hunting...none...or firearms...own a few myself...but I think this is wrong...

Let me see if I understand this ...

1. Go hunting with a gun. Be lucky enough to find a defenseless animal in the wild. Be a good enough shot to blow its brains out, or maybe not be a good enough shot and only wound it so it suffers terribly until it finally dies from either loss of blood or being attacked by a predator. No issue for you

2. Go hunting with a club. Be lucky enough to find a defenseless animal on an ice floe. Splatter its brains all over the ice and snow with the club. Cruel and inhumane and must be stopped.

The way I see it, the end result of the 2 scenarios is the same, a defenseless animal is killed. The only distinction is the means by which the end is achieved. Maybe it's too nuanced for me and I need someone much wiser than I to explain it, but in the legal profession we call this a distinction without a difference.

Not speaking for moonie, but I suppose it is about the perspective one has....Large game animals are not as helpless as some think and can be dangerous if a hunter misses a shot. Cape Buffalo come to mind among other critters. But people that hunt know this and accept the risk. Doesn't matter if they use a bow or other "primitive weapon" or a modern day firearm. "Blowing the brainsout of a defenseless animal" for meat after sitting in a stand for hours or how ever long or sitting in the same stand and shooting itwith a camera are not as easy or as simplistic as it sounds.
Try it with a camera sometime. Walking up to a baby critter laying there next to it's mother, looking at you, and then you beat it to death is totally different thing altogether....

Most hunters will put the meat of the animal to good use. I have not heard of anyone using the meat of the baby (Harp?) seals only their fur/hide/skin.

Granted death of the critters is the end result, however one death feeds hungry people, the other death merely serves to provide apparel for those wealthy enough to afford it and deprives a mother of her offspring.

Sam wrote:Blowing the brainsout of a defenseless animal" for meat after sitting in a stand for hours or how ever long or sitting in the same stand and shooting itwith a camera are not as easy or as simplistic as it sounds.

I didn't say it was easy but if you're in a stand, not out in the open, chances are the animal doesn't know you're there so it's defenseless.

My point is, if someone approves of one way of killing an animal but thinks a different method of killing an animal is cruel and inhumane, it smacks of hypocrisy to me. Either killing an animal is wrong or it isn't, you can't have it both ways just because you find one method of killing acceptable.