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Brown Eyed Girl wrote:

Midnight Flyer wrote:Seal moms mourning though? I don't think so. I don't believe animals have the ability to do that.

Then you believe wrong.

Well I can honestly say after having been around numerous critters that have given birth from cats and dogs to other assorted small and large animals...that Momma definitely misses her youngins.

I "double and tripple dog dare you" to get in a pen or try to take a piglet away from it's momma...and she has no idea who you are.... see what happens and I will lay odds you will come out of that pen a BLEEPING lot faster than you went in.....
Ever seen a mother duck with her ducklings and her fret when one is lost or missing?
How about a mother cat or a dog that has had her kittens or pups taken away from her?

Cattle have already been mentioned.

I could name other examples but I think that is enough and you get the picture. Animals may not be human but they know and can express affection and love and they certainly can feel loss. They may not feel it or express it as humans do but anyone that has ever owned a good dog knows what unconditional love means. Cats are affectionate despite the rumors that they are not and like people some critters are more affectionate than others.....after all they are individuals with their own personalities. Own enough of them, long enough, and you will find out and become a believer in that.
Other than that you will only have the experience and the words of people who have been there.

sonofabeach wrote:

Sam wrote:

sonofabeach wrote:sometimes I do have a twisted sense of humor but for the record, I fall on the side that is against the slaughter of the seals or at least the methods used.
Guess I'm a walking contradiction just like the "open mind" poll said

Bro,
I got the song just for you....here let me sing a little

"...He's a walkin' contradiction. partly truth and partly fiction, taking every wrong direction on his...."

That's me. One day I'm a democrat...the next I'm a republican
One big mixed up FRUITCAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL Aren't we all Bruddha!!! Aren't we all...
BTW I hope you know that song and the writer, and if not I will have to burn you a cd.
Let me know. He was just down in Jax and I had an offer to go but I couldn't make it.

Sam wrote:Special Thxz and beers to Kris K for that song!!!! Thnank you Kris!!! Your one Hell of a song writer, chopper pilot, and a MARINE!!!!!( not to mention a Rhodes Scholar) Welcome Home Bro!!!!

Captain Kristofferson was an infantry officer, airborne ranger, and helicopter pilot with the 8th Infantry Division but never served in the Marine Corps.

st.somewhere wrote:But... If it p*** you off, don't b**** at your BN friends about it!! Go where the fight is!!!

I don't know of any BN member that claims to be an elected official in Canada, so the fight is elsewhere.


Canadians can contact their elected representatives and voice their opposition to the practice.

People that are not Canadian should contact the Embassy.

Ambassador Michael Wilson
Embassy of Canada
501 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, D.C. 20001

It won't cost thousands of dollars for travel and you won't be threatened with arrest. Politely state your beliefs on the matter and ask that the practice be stopped.

Addressing your concerns and objections to a person in the government with jurisdiction over the matter is a better way to bring about the change you desire than bickering among friends.

Sam wrote:

Brown Eyed Girl wrote:

Midnight Flyer wrote:Seal moms mourning though? I don't think so. I don't believe animals have the ability to do that.

Then you believe wrong.

Well I can honestly say after having been around numerous critters that have given birth from cats and dogs to other assorted small and large animals...that Momma definitely misses her youngins.

Oh boy, are you in touch at all with the arrogance in your post Sam? You nor I nor any human has the the ability to label the cognitive processes of sub human animals. Your example fits perfectly the description of our need to project upon animals the feelings of humans however doing so only gives us a label..or identifyer which we can relate to. Perhaps there is a difference between domesticated animals and non but the variable with domesticated animals difficult to measure is our need to apply, in whole or part, human cognitive processes and emotions. I am sure they feel but I believe their ability to feel is limited by primitive programming, ie, need for survival and associated survival processes whether that be dominance or subordinance..both responses to human demands..and both interpreted behaviors

Grizzly man is great example. He thought he was connected at some primal level to Grizzly/Brown bears. He projected upon them human emotions, feelings and thought processes. He gave them names and assigned personality traits as way of familiarizing himself with wild animals. He actually believed a griz gave a rats patoot what he thought, felt or emoted. Big mistake, as he and his g/f ended up as din din one evening.

Umm, Todd? That was me bolding that quote and saying MF believes wrong.

And I stand behind it 100%. Humans do tend to anthropomorphize with animals, but having worked with a variety of wild as well as domesticated animals I can tell you that they do feel their version of "joy" or "happiness" and that they also grieve, vocally as well as behaviorally.

Next time we're together, before the serious drankin starts, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

Brown Eyed Girl wrote:Umm, Todd? That was me bolding that quote and saying MF believes wrong.

And I stand behind it 100%. Humans do tend to anthropomorphize with animals, but having worked with a variety of wild as well as domesticated animals I can tell you that they do feel their version of "joy" or "happiness" and that they also grieve, vocally as well as behaviorally.

Next time we're together, before the serious drankin starts, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

I think that is the point..they feel their version of joy or happiness but to reflect upon events leading to their expression of grief is well beyond what we can interpret. Consciousness is the ability to reflect coupled with the ararewness of reflection...Animals, I doubt, can reflect. We might however attribute to them emotions we are feeling in relation to an event leading up to their expression or our interpretation of emotions. We would have to have this discussion well before any drankin....was everything I could do to articulate the above..now my head hurts

bumper wrote:

Brown Eyed Girl wrote:Umm, Todd? That was me bolding that quote and saying MF believes wrong.

And I stand behind it 100%. Humans do tend to anthropomorphize with animals, but having worked with a variety of wild as well as domesticated animals I can tell you that they do feel their version of "joy" or "happiness" and that they also grieve, vocally as well as behaviorally.

Next time we're together, before the serious drankin starts, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

I think that is the point..they feel their version of joy or happiness but to reflect upon events leading to their expression of grief is well beyond what we can interpret. Consciousness is the ability to reflect coupled with the ararewness of reflection...Animals, I doubt, can reflect. We might however attribute to them emotions we are feeling in relation to an event leading up to their expression or our interpretation of emotions. We would have to have this discussion well before any drankin....was everything I could do to articulate the above..now my head hurts

Then how do you explain mother whales crying and attacking when their calves are taken from them, the refusal of a pod of whales to leave when one of their pod has died and the efforts they go through to keep the whale at the surface for breathing, the behavior of a dolphin mother when her calf is stillborn--she will do everything she can to make it breathe and swim, then when the realization hits they often try to hurt themselves? What accompanies all of these events is a gut wrenching keening sound, that if you were to hear and see it you could only describe it as grief.

Does it exist at the same level in all species? I doubt it. But I do think it exists at a higher level with marine mammals and primates, with Cetaceans being at the top.

I'm guessing we won't be having this discussion at Irvine, Todd.

bumper wrote:

Brown Eyed Girl wrote:Umm, Todd? That was me bolding that quote and saying MF believes wrong.

And I stand behind it 100%. Humans do tend to anthropomorphize with animals, but having worked with a variety of wild as well as domesticated animals I can tell you that they do feel their version of "joy" or "happiness" and that they also grieve, vocally as well as behaviorally.

Next time we're together, before the serious drankin starts, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.

I think that is the point..they feel their version of joy or happiness but to reflect upon events leading to their expression of grief is well beyond what we can interpret. Consciousness is the ability to reflect coupled with the ararewness of reflection...Animals, I doubt, can reflect. We might however attribute to them emotions we are feeling in relation to an event leading up to their expression or our interpretation of emotions. We would have to have this discussion well before any drankin....was everything I could do to articulate the above..now my head hurts

bumper,
I do agree that some people sometimes do humanize an animal's feelings.
That being said I also know animals can feel pain and they can express joy or happiness and they can express anger and nervousness. Most do care about their young and raising them.....like I said try getting between a sow and her piglets, or take one or more of the piglets away from her. See what happens. other cases have been mentioned previously.

No not all sows/ animal mothers will react the same way, just as not every human mother reacts the same way. ( ie. mothers murdering their children.)

Certainly people see human traits in other animals...but what they forget as in the case you mention....they are still an animal, in that particular case a VERY POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS animal. Like the woman that went to the Jax Zoo some years ago climbed 2 fences and tried to feed a tiger a loaf of bread. The tiger ripped her arm off.

Their is a high price to be paid for Stupidity. In nature it is called survival of the fittest.

No matter if you don't believe in unconditional love from an animal....talk with anyone that owns dogs for example....

Some people believe/say human babies cannot smile.......Ask any parent and they will most likely tell you differently.

You guys really just can't get enough of this, can you?
(purely rhetorical question)

phjrsaunt wrote:You guys really just can't get enough of this, can you?
(purely rhetorical question)

Some do well with intellectual discussions....boring as that may be to some, it lends itself to logic and reasonable discussions, read, less name calling and use of pejoratives..boring as that may be to some
on the upside..less for the moderators to do (last sentence purely rhetorical)

BEG, I hope you don't mind, if I add to add to your thread. Let him explain how each dolphin ( and I will guess this applies to all whales as well...) when the the mother births she gives the calf/infant a particular and individual sound signature. This has been repeatedly and well documented.
Effectively the mother is giving the calf/pup/baby/ whatever you want to call it, a name that is known to the pod and to other dolphins.

Do some research on dolphins and contact The Dolphin Project of Georgia.
A very good friend of mine founded it back in the 80's. It might surprise you what has been learned about the lives of wild dolphin....They play, they love, they have fights and disagreements within groups and will chase those that break some sort of code or law out of the pod and more or less disown them, and more. MUCH MORE.

Dolphins are not always the docile friendly animal that we as humans think of/percieve them to be. They have their own problems too. I doubt you would still care to claim that anyone is humanizing dolphins after seeing/ learning what they do and how they interact with themselves and people and what not in the wild.

bumper wrote:

phjrsaunt wrote:You guys really just can't get enough of this, can you?
(purely rhetorical question)

Some do well with intellectual discussions....boring as that may be to some, it lends itself to logic and reasonable discussions, read, less name calling and use of pejoratives..boring as that may be to some
on the upside..less for the moderators to do (last sentence purely rhetorical)

I think is just bored and tryiong to create a situation without being TOO OBVIOUS and crate some business and something for her to do. After all when is the last time she got lock a thread? HEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHHEHHE

DON'T HIT ME AUNTIE!!!! I am not into that sort of stuff no matter what you have been told by others!!!

LOOK AUNTIE!! RIGHT OVER THERE!!! THER IS A GUY HOLDING UP A SIGN IN BIG BOLD LETTERS FREE BEER and JIMMY BUFFETT TICKETS.... tomorrow!!!!!! RUNS LIKE BLEEP AWAY from Auntie!

Moonie wrote:Elephants are a perfect example of the behavior BEG is talking about.

and male grizzly bears eat the cubs go figure, does that cause the sow to mourn? or is she mourning because in reflection of what happened she realized she failed in her role as protector? or is the response much more primitive in nature..by primitive I mean what drives her need for survival or an elephants need or a dolphin or whale.

and BEG...whales like wolves are pack animals..they operate, function and survive in packs..each having a role clearly defined through social conditioning..when survival is threatened either by nature's course or other influence, primitive/primal responses occur

Sam you make my point for me.....trigger a primitive response from a wild animal and there is no reflecting, no arbitrating, no discussion, it attacks, defends and does it what it needs to do to survive or protect. There is no court, no fine no punishment no legal intervention..it purely, instictually reacts.

bumper wrote:[
and BEG...whales like wolves are pack animals..they operate, function and survive in packs..each having a role clearly defined through social conditioning..when survival is threatened either by nature's course or other influence, primitive/primal responses occur

Sweetie...one day you and Michelle will take a trip with me...you'll see it differently after that, I promise. Until then, pass the saltines, please.

bumper wrote:

Moonie wrote:Elephants are a perfect example of the behavior BEG is talking about.

and male grizzly bears eat the cubs go figure, does that cause the sow to mourn? or is she mourning because in reflection of what happened she realized she failed in her role as protector? or is the response much more primitive in nature..by primitive I mean what drives her need for survival or an elephants need or a dolphin or whale.

and BEG...whales like wolves are pack animals..they operate, function and survive in packs..each having a role clearly defined through social conditioning..when survival is threatened either by nature's course or other influence, primitive/primal responses occur

domestic cats do the same thing...I've had it happen. Generally, only the males are killed. It's to bring the female back in estrus and eliminate them from competition with the breeding females...

I know first hand that the Mother Cat was extremely traumitized by the loss of her kittens.

Female elephants chase off the males when a baby elephant is born...a herd of elephants can pick out bones of their ancestors from a bone pile...

primal instinct...are we to say it's not an emotion? are your thoughts based on observation? or something else?

Moonie wrote:

bumper wrote:

Moonie wrote:Elephants are a perfect example of the behavior BEG is talking about.

and male grizzly bears eat the cubs go figure, does that cause the sow to mourn? or is she mourning because in reflection of what happened she realized she failed in her role as protector? or is the response much more primitive in nature..by primitive I mean what drives her need for survival or an elephants need or a dolphin or whale.

and BEG...whales like wolves are pack animals..they operate, function and survive in packs..each having a role clearly defined through social conditioning..when survival is threatened either by nature's course or other influence, primitive/primal responses occur

domestic cats do the same thing...I've had it happen. Generally, only the males are killed. It's to bring the female back in estrus and eliminate them from competition with the breeding females...

I know first hand that the Mother Cat was extremely traumitized by the loss of her kittens.

Female elephants chase off the males when a baby elephant is born...a herd of elephants can pick out bones of their ancestors from a bone pile...

primal instinct...are we to say it's not an emotion? are your thoughts based on observation? or something else?

I am saying the behavior is bred into the animals genes..its is part or whole of its need for survival and perpetuation of the species...that its response is visceral, primal and primitive and if successful in destroying the threat spends very little time reflecting on what a good job its done and cracks a corona to celebrate. I am saying without human intervention..read..training....that animals or driven by instinct, need to survive and perpetuation of the species...I have heard a thousand times..look at the whale jump in the air..they are having fun...truth is ...its fun for us to watch when in reality they could be jumping to get the parasites off their backs

bumper wrote:

Moonie wrote:Elephants are a perfect example of the behavior BEG is talking about.

and male grizzly bears eat the cubs go figure, does that cause the sow to mourn? or is she mourning because in reflection of what happened she realized she failed in her role as protector? or is the response much more primitive in nature..by primitive I mean what drives her need for survival or an elephants need or a dolphin or whale.

and BEG...whales like wolves are pack animals..they operate, function and survive in packs..each having a role clearly defined through social conditioning..when survival is threatened either by nature's course or other influence, primitive/primal responses occur

Sam you make my point for me.....trigger a primitive response from a wild animal and there is no reflecting, no arbitrating, no discussion, it attacks, defends and does it what it needs to do to survive or protect. There is no court, no fine no punishment no legal intervention..it purely, instictually reacts.

I will leave others to respond for themselves. Actually you just shot your arguement in the groin.

Study what has been learned from wild dolphins... or wolves or other pack or individual animals. If theres is only instinct... then what about humans and their actions? If it is only instinct for those animals then what is different about the way humans interact? Does it make one feel superior to another being by saying they are incapable of ...(fill in the blank). There is no doubt of some animals or their intelligence or their ability to learn to make or create or use tools. This is well documented.
There are documented cases of oter animals developing or using tactics that go beyond simple instinct. How do you explain that?

I have no idea of how much on hand/first hand experience you have ever had with animals. I am not saying that animals are the same or feel the same as humans. I am saying that animals can feel and express emotions. They known pain of loss and they can mourn. They know and experience love and caring and they know joy. They know and recognize nervousness and fear and anger.

To what degree they actualy feel these, I don't know, but I do know they feel them. I think it might sort of compare to that it would sort of be like a male telling woman what it is like to carry feel the growing life within their body, and actually give birth to a child and all the various things and changes that take place in those 9 months or so and the rest of their lives.
Does the father love the child any less because he did not carry the baby inside and actually give it life for those 9 months? As someone many years ago told a young sailor...." you only have to be there for the keel to be laid, you don't have to be there for the launching or the christening or for the voyage." Crude and rude yes...and far too many men take that litterally today. But it shows a man has no real idea or concept what a woman really goes through and it proves that while a man can get an inkling of what is going on and fully understand the processes......One can do the same with animals...get an idea of what they are up to or how they are feeling or what mood they are in.
( My apologies to the mothers out there I am only trying to prove a point about ideas and thoughts that are not really understood.. and no man on Earth has really ever understood the way a woman thinks anyway. DUCK!!! DON'T HIT ME!!! RUNS!!!!!! )