So how come....

[Brown Eyed Girl]

I have heard a thousand times..look at the whale jump in the air..they are having fun...truth is ...its fun for us to watch when in reality they could be jumping to get the parasites off their backs

agreed, I hear that all the time too, it is my job to correct that misinformation. But who are we to say that getting those parasites off doesn't feel good? It is natural for whales to jump out of the water, why they do it we'll never really know. Could be parasites, could be play behavior, could be another whale snuck up behind them and goosed them on the ass!

Spend some time in the middle of a superpod of 120+ Orcas and I really do think you'll see some things differently. And I'd love to introduce you to a couple of men who could explain it a whole lot more eloquently than I.

[LIPH]

I like pie somebody had to say it

[bumper]

Elephants are a perfect example of the behavior BEG is talking about.

and male grizzly bears eat the cubs go figure, does that cause the sow to mourn? or is she mourning because in reflection of what happened she realized she failed in her role as protector? or is the response much more primitive in nature..by primitive I mean what drives her need for survival or an elephants need or a dolphin or whale.

and BEG...whales like wolves are pack animals..they operate, function and survive in packs..each having a role clearly defined through social conditioning..when survival is threatened either by nature's course or other influence, primitive/primal responses occur

Sam you make my point for me.....trigger a primitive response from a wild animal and there is no reflecting, no arbitrating, no discussion, it attacks, defends and does it what it needs to do to survive or protect. There is no court, no fine no punishment no legal intervention..it purely, instictually reacts.

I will leave others to respond for themselves. Actually you just shot your arguement in the groin.

Study what has been learned from wild dolphins... or wolves or other pack or individual animals. If theres is only instinct... then what about humans and their actions? If it is only instinct for those animals then what is different about the way humans interact? Does it make one feel superior to another being by saying they are incapable of ...(fill in the blank). There is no doubt of some animals or their intelligence or their ability to learn to make or create or use tools. This is well documented.
There are documented cases of oter animals developing or using tactics that go beyond simple instinct. How do you explain that?

Because we have discovered a chimp's use of stick for hunting ants does not mean its new..it simply means we realize it. Do you think the way wolves socialize and hunt has changed in the last 500 years? Our ability to observe it has..it is just new to us I doubt not new to them.

And yes....for arguments sake..animals feel primitive emotion...rage, fear, love or better..those are the words we use to describe what we see...but they are reactive generally to outside influences that either threaten or perpetuate the species. You actually belief an elephant is aware it is having a good day? and as a reward, takes a day off?

Where you lose credibility is making the comparison between human mothers and animals. Animals breed because they are instictually reacting to chemical changes...women have choices....they have the ability to reflect upon the outcome..can I afford it.....have I accomplished what I want..what about my career...am I to selfhish blah blah...ya think a female chimp goes through the same process?

[Moonie]

Where you lose credibility is making the comparison between human mothers and animals. Animals breed because they are instictually reacting to chemical changes...women have choices....they have the ability to reflect upon the outcome..can I afford it.....have I accomplished what I want..what about my career...am I to selfhish blah blah...ya think a female chimp goes through the same process?

I'd say from my experience in working in an elementary school...some of those statements are extremely debatable....and I'm not kidding....

[Sam]

Elephants are a perfect example of the behavior BEG is talking about.

and male grizzly bears eat the cubs go figure, does that cause the sow to mourn? or is she mourning because in reflection of what happened she realized she failed in her role as protector? or is the response much more primitive in nature..by primitive I mean what drives her need for survival or an elephants need or a dolphin or whale.

and BEG...whales like wolves are pack animals..they operate, function and survive in packs..each having a role clearly defined through social conditioning..when survival is threatened either by nature's course or other influence, primitive/primal responses occur

Sam you make my point for me.....trigger a primitive response from a wild animal and there is no reflecting, no arbitrating, no discussion, it attacks, defends and does it what it needs to do to survive or protect. There is no court, no fine no punishment no legal intervention..it purely, instictually reacts.

I will leave others to respond for themselves. Actually you just shot your arguement in the groin.

Study what has been learned from wild dolphins... or wolves or other pack or individual animals. If theres is only instinct... then what about humans and their actions? If it is only instinct for those animals then what is different about the way humans interact? Does it make one feel superior to another being by saying they are incapable of ...(fill in the blank). There is no doubt of some animals or their intelligence or their ability to learn to make or create or use tools. This is well documented.
There are documented cases of oter animals developing or using tactics that go beyond simple instinct. How do you explain that?

Because we have discovered a chimp's use of stick for hunting ants does not mean its new..it simply means we realize it. Do you think the way wolves socialize and hunt has changed in the last 500 years? Our ability to observe it has..it is just new to us I doubt not new to them.

And yes....for arguments sake..animals feel primitive emotion...rage, fear, love or better..those are the words we use to describe what we see...but they are reactive generally to outside influences that either threaten or perpetuate the species. You actually belief an elephant is aware it is having a good day? and as a reward, takes a day off?

Where you lose credibility is making the comparison between human mothers and animals. Animals breed because they are instictually reacting to chemical changes...women have choices....they have the ability to reflect upon the outcome..can I afford it.....have I accomplished what I want..what about my career...am I to selfhish blah blah...ya think a female chimp goes through the same process?

Tell it to the dolphins nd that is the only reason they breed. Dolphins are very frisky animals and have sex anytine they choose. Male dolphins are known to get "frisky" with female scuba divers. A dog humps someones leg or a vacumn cleaner or whatever because why? are these chemical changes or learned behavior? Who taught the dog or the wild dolphin to do such?

What credibility am I losing ? Certainly you admit that any mother goes through multiple changes in her body.That includes the the mother of any manmal in this particular case such as producing milk for the baby.
Some mothers cannot produce milk for whatever reason.besides finding another source of milk for the baby's diet what does that mean?

It has to do with many things and at least you are admitting animals DO FEEL things on at least a lower level.
It also means if you go back and reread what I had posted that I do not know what level they feel on. So apparently we agree that they do feel.

However animals do know the loss of their young, they will notice the loss of a person, and in some cases the loss of their mate as in some species that bond/mate for life.

Care to explain how animals that were left behind have made their way to a new home where the family moved to? Simple instinct or something more? Sometimes well over a Thousand miles....they covered and traveled and survived, to get to a place they had never been.

Like I said elsewhere, I don't know your experience with animals,.... and as BEG invited you and your lady, to come and see and experience for yourself firsthand. "It doesn't get any better than that, Bro!" Blieve the docs that say it isimpossible for a human baby to smile and grin......or talk to the multitudes of Mothers and Fathers that have seen it or visit new mothers and fathers and witness it first hand. You decide if it was only gas or whatever or was a real expression of joy and happiness.

[bumper]

Where you lose credibility is making the comparison between human mothers and animals. Animals breed because they are instictually reacting to chemical changes...women have choices....they have the ability to reflect upon the outcome..can I afford it.....have I accomplished what I want..what about my career...am I to selfhish blah blah...ya think a female chimp goes through the same process?

I'd say from my experience in working in an elementary school...some of those statements are extremely debatable....and I'm not kidding....

I am saying women have choices..does not mean some act as if they do..but all things being equal posess the ability if called upon to reflect upon the outcome. Hence the use of the pill etc. that is clearly a choice which shows reflection and awareness

[Sam]

Oneother thing about your conclucions to consider.... some years ago and using chimps as your case pointed out....Scientist noticed something funny about the raisins that were being dispened ... the chimps could get the raisins ( or whatever the food was) by pressing a bar or button and the food would come out.

They noticed the males hitting pushing the button or bar/lever... getting a some food and walking over and giving it to the female chimps for "sexual favors".

[bumper]

Tell it to the dolphins nd that is the only reason they breed. Dolphins are very frisky animals and have sex anytine they choose. Male dolphins are known to get "frisky" with female scuba divers. A dog humps someones leg or a vacumn cleaner or whatever because why? are these chemical changes or learned behavior? Who taught the dog or the wild dolphin to do such?

A dog humps in order to dominate..if its a vacuum.. he is simply misguided or perhaps it feels good to him..not all dogs do it so its a personality trait, not a general test which I thought we were discussing in generalities?

What credibility am I losing ? Certainly you admit that any mother goes through multiple changes in her body.That includes the the mother of any manmal in this particular case such as producing milk for the baby.
Some mothers cannot produce milk for whatever reason.besides finding another source of milk for the baby's diet what does that mean?

Survival....she cannot self will milk production, it is in response to chemical changes. If she cannot produce milk out of primitive survival she finds another source

It has to do with many things and at least you are admitting animals DO FEEL things on at least a lower level.
It also means if you go back and reread what I had posted that I do not know what level they feel on. So apparently we agree that they do feel.

What I am acknowledging is... that is how we label it for our understanding and it is rudimentary at best....

However animals do know the loss of their young, they will notice the loss of a person, and in some cases the loss of their mate as in some species that bond/mate for life.

Of course...survival..primitive, and primal at is base

Care to explain how animals that were left behind have made their way to a new home where the family moved to? Simple instinct or something more? Sometimes well over a Thousand miles....they covered and traveled and survived, to get to a place they had never been.

Not all dogs do it...that notion is specific in nature and does not apply to the generalities in which we are speaking

Like I said elsewhere, I don't know your experience with animals,.... and as BEG invited you and your lady, to come and see and experience for yourself firsthand. "It doesn't get any better than that, Bro!" Blieve the docs that say it isimpossible for a human baby to smile and grin......or talk to the multitudes of Mothers and Fathers that have seen it or visit new mothers and fathers and witness it first hand. You decide if it was only gas or whatever or was a real expression of joy and happiness.[/quote]

She just wants to get us drunk..I know that girl

[Sam]

Tell it to the dolphins nd that is the only reason they breed. Dolphins are very frisky animals and have sex anytine they choose. Male dolphins are known to get "frisky" with female scuba divers. A dog humps someones leg or a vacumn cleaner or whatever because why? are these chemical changes or learned behavior? Who taught the dog or the wild dolphin to do such?

A dog humps in order to dominate..if its a vacuum.. he is simply misguided or perhaps it feels good to him..not all dogs do it so its a personality trait, not a general test which I thought we were discussing in generalities?

What credibility am I losing ? Certainly you admit that any mother goes through multiple changes in her body.That includes the the mother of any manmal in this particular case such as producing milk for the baby.
Some mothers cannot produce milk for whatever reason.besides finding another source of milk for the baby's diet what does that mean?

Survival....she cannot self will milk production, it is in response to chemical changes. If she cannot produce milk out of primitive survival she finds another source

It has to do with many things and at least you are admitting animals DO FEEL things on at least a lower level.
It also means if you go back and reread what I had posted that I do not know what level they feel on. So apparently we agree that they do feel.

What I am acknowledging is... that is how we label it for our understanding and it is rudimentary at best....

However animals do know the loss of their young, they will notice the loss of a person, and in some cases the loss of their mate as in some species that bond/mate for life.

Of course...survival..primitive, and primal at is base

Care to explain how animals that were left behind have made their way to a new home where the family moved to? Simple instinct or something more? Sometimes well over a Thousand miles....they covered and traveled and survived, to get to a place they had never been.

Not all dogs do it...that notion is specific in nature and does not apply to the generalities in which we are speaking

Like I said elsewhere, I don't know your experience with animals,.... and as BEG invited you and your lady, to come and see and experience for yourself firsthand. "It doesn't get any better than that, Bro!" Blieve the docs that say it isimpossible for a human baby to smile and grin......or talk to the multitudes of Mothers and Fathers that have seen it or visit new mothers and fathers and witness it first hand. You decide if it was only gas or whatever or was a real expression of joy and happiness.

She just wants to get us drunk..I know that girl [/quote]
Well see if IT FEELS good then their goes your explanation about chemicals being the cause.

Rudimentary understanding at best, is what I was correlating about what a man knows about being pregnant and explaining what it feels like to a woman.

It is not just dogs that have made the journey......not every person is a good person either. Not every person is a murderer. Your point being?

Best of everything to you and yours Bro.

[bumper]

She just wants to get us drunk..I know that girl [/quote]
Well see if IT FEELS good then their goes your explanation about chemicals being the cause.

First I trust her and I am comfortable around her...the rest is just crackin coconuts...cracker posse style

Rudimentary understanding at best, is what I was correlating about what a man knows about being pregnant and explaining what it feels like to a woman.

We may be talking other points....a man's ability to describe to a woman her pregnancy has nothing to do with feeling or primitive ideation. It does have to do with a state of being and experiencing first hand all the physical and emotional changes associated with pregnancy. A woman who has never been pregnant could perhaps understand a bit better then a man but total emersion into the experience is the only avenue towards complete understanding

It is not just dogs that have made the journey......not every person is a good person either. Not every person is a murderer. Your point being?

Speaking in specifics concerning behavior only detracts from the generalities of human or animal nature/primitive and survival driven behavior. Because one dog humps a vacuum has nothing to do with general male dog behavior whatsoever.

and a last point of clarification, Primitive in the innnate sense that humans are attracted to each other and how they behave while pursueing that ritual. Primitive as in that part of us that relates to our ancestry base of thousand of years ago that has not completetly left our subconscious mind or evolutionary genes. It is what drives us yet escapes the specifics of detail. It is not that you are attracted to your mate and her to you that is primal...but the why is

Best of everything to you and yours Bro

and to you and yours as well

[bumper]

She just wants to get us drunk..I know that girl

Well see if IT FEELS good then their goes your explanation about chemicals being the cause.

First I trust her and I am comfortable around her...the rest is just crackin coconuts...cracker posse style

Rudimentary understanding at best, is what I was correlating about what a man knows about being pregnant and explaining what it feels like to a woman.

We may be talking other points....a man's ability to describe to a woman her pregnancy has nothing to do with feeling or primitive ideation. It does have to do with a state of being and experiencing first hand all the physical and emotional changes associated with pregnancy. A woman who has never been pregnant could perhaps understand a bit better then a man but total emersion into the experience is the only avenue towards complete understanding

It is not just dogs that have made the journey......not every person is a good person either. Not every person is a murderer. Your point being?

Speaking in specifics concerning behavior only detracts from the generalities of human or animal nature/primitive and survival driven behavior. Because one dog humps a vacuum has nothing to do with general male dog behavior whatsoever.

and a last point of clarification, Primitive in the innnate sense that humans are attracted to each other and how they behave while pursueing that ritual. Primitive as in that part of us that relates to our ancestry base of thousand of years ago that has not completetly left our subconscious mind or evolutionary genes. It is what drives us yet escapes the specifics of detail. It is not that you are attracted to your mate and her to you that is primal...but the why is
primitive as in the way Ringlingx2 responds to you.... I had to do it

Best of everything to you and yours Bro

and to you and yours as well [/quote]

[Sam]

She just wants to get us drunk..I know that girl

Well see if IT FEELS good then their goes your explanation about chemicals being the cause.

First I trust her and I am comfortable around her...the rest is just crackin coconuts...cracker posse style

Rudimentary understanding at best, is what I was correlating about what a man knows about being pregnant and explaining what it feels like to a woman.

We may be talking other points....a man's ability to describe to a woman her pregnancy has nothing to do with feeling or primitive ideation. It does have to do with a state of being and experiencing first hand all the physical and emotional changes associated with pregnancy. A woman who has never been pregnant could perhaps understand a bit better then a man but total emersion into the experience is the only avenue towards complete understanding

It is not just dogs that have made the journey......not every person is a good person either. Not every person is a murderer. Your point being?

Speaking in specifics concerning behavior only detracts from the generalities of human or animal nature/primitive and survival driven behavior. Because one dog humps a vacuum has nothing to do with general male dog behavior whatsoever.

and a last point of clarification, Primitive in the innnate sense that humans are attracted to each other and how they behave while pursueing that ritual. Primitive as in that part of us that relates to our ancestry base of thousand of years ago that has not completetly left our subconscious mind or evolutionary genes. It is what drives us yet escapes the specifics of detail. It is not that you are attracted to your mate and her to you that is primal...but the why is
primitive as in the way Ringlingx2 responds to you.... I had to do it

Best of everything to you and yours Bro

and to you and yours as well

[/quote]

I think you are right that we are talking different points but are more or less agreeing and saying the same thing just in different words and in different ways.
If BEG want to get you drunk make sure it is AFTER you come back from the boat ride and seeing the pod of orcas.... it could be she just might push you over the side and watch you get molested by a pack of "frisky" orcas and videotape it so all of could see it happen. On second thought go ahead and drink HEAVILY before you go. after if she is gonna try to get you drunk then she is paying for your drinks and you are drinking free. Can't beat that deal can you.... well other than being gang-banged by a pod of "frisky" orcas. Just think of the story you could tell and have it videotaped to prove it .

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Until we chat again....All the best and may your beer forever be cold and tasty.

I am going outside to have a cold beer and putter about and watch the river go by.

Wish you and your lady were here to share it. Trying to decide if I want to fire up the grill and burn something or what .... Nice day here bright sunshine and (mostly) clear blue skies. Come on over and see how life is here.

[buffettbride]

Well, I think a lot of you will be happy to know that karma has effectively bitten me in the ass.

I have a gnarly case of strep throat and I FEEL like I've been clubbed over the head.

[Moonie]

Well, I think a lot of you will be happy to know that karma has effectively bitten me in the ass.

I have a gnarly case of strep throat and I FEEL like I've been clubbed over the head.

actually Mallory.....under no circumstance would l be happy to know that you have strep throat and not feeling well...

wish you a speedy recovery and sincerely hope your children don't catch it...

[SMLCHNG]

wMs.. Sorry to hear that, Mal. Hope you're all better by the weekend!

[bumper]

Well, I think a lot of you will be happy to know that karma has effectively bitten me in the ass.

I have a gnarly case of strep throat and I FEEL like I've been clubbed over the head.

Though it is interesting why you think you have strep,,karma being what it is and all....hope you feel better soon

[Sam]

Well, I think a lot of you will be happy to know that karma has effectively bitten me in the ass.

I have a gnarly case of strep throat and I FEEL like I've been clubbed over the head.

Are you sure it is strep throat and not a result of doing perverted things with the zuchini and showing off again? As for being clubbed over the head feeling no doubt that is from the repeated pounding your head against the headboard of the bed.

Thought you would have learned how to stop that from happening by now.
Seriously, I never wished or wanted any harm or illness to befall you.

I hope and wish you a speedy and full recovery ASAP!!
( OH YEAH....remember to put pillows or cushions on the headboard!!!!)

[sonofabeach]

Well, I think a lot of you will be happy to know that karma has effectively bitten me in the ass.

I have a gnarly case of strep throat and I FEEL like I've been clubbed over the head.

Are you sure it is strep throat and not a result of doing perverted things with the zuchini and showing off again? As for being clubbed over the head feeling no doubt that is from the repeated pounding your head against the headboard of the bed.

Thought you would have learned how to stop that from happening by now.
Seriously, I never wished or wanted any harm or illness to befall you.

I hope and wish you a speedy and full recovery ASAP!!
( OH YEAH....remember to put pillows or cushions on the headboard!!!!)

geez sam,
save the seals and now perverted talk...you're starting to sound like a liberal
In my best satanic voice:
JOIN US

[Moonie]

DUCK...and run fast SOB...real real Fast!

[Sam]

Well, I think a lot of you will be happy to know that karma has effectively bitten me in the ass.

I have a gnarly case of strep throat and I FEEL like I've been clubbed over the head.

Are you sure it is strep throat and not a result of doing perverted things with the zuchini and showing off again? As for being clubbed over the head feeling no doubt that is from the repeated pounding your head against the headboard of the bed.

Thought you would have learned how to stop that from happening by now.
Seriously, I never wished or wanted any harm or illness to befall you.

I hope and wish you a speedy and full recovery ASAP!!
( OH YEAH....remember to put pillows or cushions on the headboard!!!!)

geez sam,
save the seals and now perverted talk...you're starting to sound like a liberal
In my best satanic voice:
JOIN US

I will be more than happy to join you as long as you are buying REAL BEER. Since you invited me to join you must mean you are buying. <GRINZ>
If you are not buying REAL beer instead of that Mexican Rat p*** I have something I have to do. Like go count how many mosquitoes died in the last 2 minutes and compare their deaths with the ratio of baby harp seal deaths and figure in the ratio of the earths current tilt on it's axis in comparison with the radiation that the average airline pilot is exposed to with that of the average worker's in a nuclear power plant exposure, not to mention I have tp compare figures of the greenhouse gases output to that of those if the Kyoto protocols had been implemented...oh yeah then the sloth races start. HMMM I am sure I am forgetting a few other most important things I must be doing. like and a pollen spore count or making a documentary of the life of a toxic algae bloom or something....

But if your buying REAL BEER .....I will be Right there.