The Bible

[Key Lime Lee]

But this is why God gave us all a free will.

Man THAT was a big mistake.

[Crzy]

But this is why God gave us all a free will.

Man THAT was a big mistake.

[bumper]

I can't prove the air exists but I know it does. I feel it, sometimes I smell it.

science has proven air exists, bad comparison

Los Angeles proves almost daily that air, and what's mixed in with it, CAN be seen!

should seen the air 20 years ago...could slice it with a knife...The Russians are manipulating the jet stream.....soon San Dawg weather and ours will be reversed

[bumper]

But this is why God gave us all a free will.

Man THAT was a big mistake.

I thought free will was a paradox? like time travel or "I turn left here, right?"

[Key Lime Lee]

But this is why God gave us all a free will.

Man THAT was a big mistake.

I thought free will was a paradox? like time travel or "I turn left here, right?"

It's more like a thinly-veiled threat:

"You can do whatever you want, but if you don't do it my way I'll punish you with eternal damnation."

I personally enjoy Douglas Adams' take on it all:

''Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and says do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting `Gotcha'. It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it.''

''Why not?''

''Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end.''

[UAHparrothead]

I
It's a Christians responsibility to share their faith, not pressure it on anyone. Plant your seed and leave it at that.

I think you are dead on with that statement. I have told many people that "witnessing" is just that, telling what you have personally experienced. In a courtroom, the witness' job is to tell what he/she has seen, heard, and experienced, not to convience the jury, that's the lawyer's job. There is nothing that will turn someone off quicker than "Where are you going to go when you die?"

[jimolliemom]

Brad and Cocotel, I whole heartedly agree but doing that here will get you in trouble.

BTW, Sunday at Sunday School, the lesson was on how you react when someone doubts Faith/God/Jesus or anything along that line. How most people who do not believe at all, not any form of Christianity, feel assaulted when God is mentioned. I had to laugh and I feel even better about how I answered here and how I am raising my children.

On your mark...get set...

[bumper]

Brad and Cocotel, I whole heartedly agree but doing that here will get you in trouble.

BTW, Sunday at Sunday School, the lesson was on how you react when someone doubts Faith/God/Jesus or anything along that line. How most people who do not believe at all, not any form of Christianity, feel assaulted when God is mentioned. I had to laugh and I feel even better about how I answered here and how I am raising my children.

On your mark...get set...

they teach how to react in Aethiest class when God is brought up by Christians bearing gifts

[Key Lime Lee]

BTW, Sunday at Sunday School, the lesson was on how you react when someone doubts Faith/God/Jesus or anything along that line. How most people who do not believe at all, not any form of Christianity, feel assaulted when God is mentioned.

I don't think that's a fair generalization at all. In fact I don't even think its remotely accurate.

Personally I only get irritated when a) folks assume that I should quietly go along with that which I don't believe, b) when a public institution adds credence to that which I see as a private belief, especially where it involves my children or c) people making the general assumption that because I don't share their views of all-powerful beings that somehow I don't have the same morals or commitment to my children as they do.

Basically it boils down to '"respect my beliefs and I'll respect yours."

Steer clear of those three things and whatever you believe is cool with me.

[jimolliemom]

Lee, I said "Most" and that's what I've come in contact with...not you personally. Not just members of Bn. I respect all beliefs and have no problem with what anyone chooses to believe. I was knocked for being a total Presbyterian. That's what is right for ME. And I've stated that part every time as well...FOR ME... I will say again, I've had Jewish and Mormon friends as well as friends who didn't believe anything or to anyone at all. Fine and dandy. Part of the class I was referring to also gave this which is part of the Study Catechism, "In short, I should always welcome and accept these others in a way that honors and reflects the Lord's welcome and acceptance of me". Oddly enough, it's exactly what I believe that gives me the understanding to respect others who do not feel and live as I do.

I'll say again, Most of the non believers I've come in contact with do not want any word about Christ or God spoken to them. So I don't. This was a question on how you personally feel about the Bible.

[Soraya]

How most people who do not believe at all, not any form of Christianity, feel assaulted when God is mentioned. I had to laugh

Christians have made people feel assaulted and you wanted to laugh? No wonder you have get this reaction.

Your God has never assaulted me and I find the study of comparative religions and their impact of societies to be quite interesting, however, I can do without most of his followers.

and I feel even better about how I answered here and how I am raising my children.

Glad you feel good about denying the children of other religions (or none) the right to same freedoms your children enjoy in school. Glad you like laughing at people that feel uncomfortable with the behavior of Christians and stand up for their beliefs and place in society.

And, I am sure you do not realize this, but this can easily be taken as those that don't 'raise their children' as you do, are somehow doing it incorrectly....I am trying to be gentle here, but quite honestly, I read this, and showed it to my very Christian co-worker earlier today, and we both thought it was a holier then thou put down. Just adding 'I didn't mean it like that' in a later post doesn't negate the original comment.

How many times do you get the chance in real life to explain a comment to someone you've already offended?

This is why exactly why many tune out when Christians start talking. To other Christians, I am sure this just sounds like a normal, well intentioned comment. For someone outside of that very insular group....it's not.

On your mark...get set...

Hardly a well intentioned why to end your post. It shows that you are trying to do the very same things you are accusing non-believers of. Pot, meet the Kettle.

[UAHparrothead]

It seems that there are those on both the theist and atheist sides that live in their own insular bubbles and with closed minds. Taking anything presented by the other side as offensive. Unitl we can all interact without bristled hairs at every comment then we'll never be able to discuss matters that concern all of us.

[Soraya]

It seems that there are those on both the theist and atheist sides that live in their own insular bubbles and with closed minds. Taking anything presented by the other side as offensive. Unitl we can all interact without bristled hairs at every comment then we'll never be able to discuss matters that concern all of us.

You may have a point, Brad. It's a topic that hits close to the bone for many, and it is often hard to assume the best in others. Certainly it is hard to assume the best about Christians for me because I've been burned too many times. (Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me.)

Now some may say that this thread is only about 'the bible'...but I don't see how you can separate what some claim it teaches from the behavior of many people that use it as a holy book.

I've not seen any of the Non-Christians (atheists and others) in this thread wanting to deny Christians their rights...just have them be on the same playing field as everyone else. It's not a theory to me if my child is not welcome to join a school event or team because she is being raised to be a good, moral person without the threat of hell.

One person in this thread has said that she's taken a lesson on how to share her religion with others...and in the very same sentence insults the people she says she wants to reach! Can we say hypocrite?

It comes down to my not wanting my family to be hit over the head with a Bible and being told the headache it causes is good for us.

[UAHparrothead]

How can one aviod an insult without completely avioding the topic of religion?
If you can't aviod insulting someone, even when no insult was intedned, then it is impossible to have any kind of conversation about religion and that is unfortunate.

Since there has been a lot of talk families I am curious about something. What if your children, in their own investigation, decided to become a Christian? How would you react?

[Key Lime Lee]

Since there has been a lot of talk families I am curious about something. What if your children, in their own investigation, decided to become a Christian? How would you react?

I'd continue to think they were wrong, but would respect their right to do so.

I've actually told my 7 year old daughter several times that I don't want her to believe or not believe something just because I do - what I want is for her to take her own journey, investigate the options, and come to her own conclusions. I'll be happy to share my views, but, honestly, I'd rather raise kids capable of critical thinking than kids who just think what I do.

Honestly in all of this I think the self-reflection is a lot more important to making someone well-adjusted than the conclusion they come to. Folks who arrive at their own beliefs rather than simply adopt them tend to be a lot more capable of genuine discussion.

[Key Lime Lee]

How can one aviod an insult without completely avioding the topic of religion?

Anyone who is insulted by the mere mention of religion, or conversely, the suggestion that its all false, is FAR too insecure in their beliefs to be capable of genuine discussion.

Even tho I don't believe in god, I have no problem with folks who are passionate about it being open about that passion, same way I don't get offended by folks talking about college basketball, another thing I have no interest in.

If there's one thing that modern America teaches us, its that folks will get cross about pretty much anything (Jimmy didn't show up at Mac's show / Jimmy DID show up at Mac's show). As long as you know you're being respectful of others beliefs, there's nothing more you can do. Can't worry about the idiots on either side.

[Soraya]

How can one aviod an insult without completely avioding the topic of religion?

I moderate a board that deals with comparative religions. It has a wide variety of posters and staff. Christians, Jews, Atheists, Pagans (and about a thousand flavors of them), Agnostics...you name it.

It can be done, but it is more the mindset of the posters that they have found what works for them....and others may have found different answers to similar questions.

Once comments like, I am a better person because of XYZ, or "This is the only way you can believe" or "If you don't believe like I do you need to keep quiet" then you have problems.

Blanket statements about 'others' tend to cause problems as well.....even if clarified 'after the fact'. It can be hard, unless extra care is taken online (where we loss some personal knowledge of each other, as well as vocal and body clues as to intent) to refine such statements as they are being posted.

If you can't aviod insulting someone, even when no insult was intedned, then it is impossible to have any kind of conversation about religion and that is unfortunate.

It takes care...and the mindset that others are going to have other opinions that work for them. Take these two statements:

1) For me, the Bible is God's Truth, passed down directly and to be followed closely to allow me to lead a moral life and be assured of eternal salvation through Jesus Christ.

2) The Bible is Truth. You are lost without it and will be dammed to hell. It's the immoral heathens that don't believe Jesus that are the problem with society and they should be excluded from expressing their ideas in public.

Now, tell me, which one encourages communication, and the other shuts it off? They both say almost the same thing (The Bible is the literal word of God, it teachers a person to be moral and good as well as the plan for the afterlife) but the intent and tone are COMPLETELY different.

Since there has been a lot of talk families I am curious about something. What if your children, in their own investigation, decided to become a Christian? How would you react?

It would depend on quite a bit. Rocky (my daughter) has many Christian friends, and in second grade, I think we went to about 20 confirmation parties. (..and many of the mothers had me help with the planning or with their daughter's dresses and veils, even though I am not a believer).

They are good people that didn't seem to beat anyone over the head with a book and respected others right to believe (or disbelieve) in public. They didn't force prayers before school events or think their children were somehow better then others just because of what church they went to.

If she found she had faith, and expressed it as these friends, I'd be surprised but that's about it.

Now, if she starts taking classes at the local seminary, looking down on others that don't share her churches belief, joins a cult-like group, starts thinking she is less because she is female, I will be p***.

However, I have raised her better than that. (...and yes, that may be taken badly by some Christians here...I am not trying to be gentle at this point). She has empathy and respect for others (and had gotten them without being raised to follow a book), and knows how to use her brain. She likes science too much (her favorite class) to chuck logic out the window completely.

Again, two different views, but in the mean time, I want her to be judged by her own merits and behavior, not which church she goes to or how loud she prays in public.

[UAHparrothead]

I think it is a matter of disengaging out defense mechanisms and trying to hear the other person. But we all have presuppositions so when I hear, "She likes science too much (her favorite class) to chuck logic out the window completely." My immediate reaction to that is "So as a Christian I am not logical." But you probably didn't mean that by it, but that is my first gut reaction. So you can see how statements can be taken out of context and words can be put into mouths and insinuations into the meaning behind those words.

[jimolliemom]

Soraya...I think you should read my post again...
I was laughing at the TOPIC of class...not the ways or actions of anyone. Ironic how that was the class just a few days after this began. To me, that was God giving me a lesson I needed. How DO I deal with this kind of discussion????(Note, asking God...not anyone in particular)

Now, wanna talk about children?? I'm very glad your daughter is a nice child and has a good brain. I would hope that for everyone's kid. BUT...after lots of accusing and heavy overtones...my kids are FAR from judged by where they go to church or who their parents are or the home they live in or ANYTHING other than their character. My son is 15 and 1/2. He makes ALL A's on his report card of which 4 are Honors classes. He is on the Football team and plays offense and defense. He is a Boy Scout where he just made STAR rank and has been accepted into the Order of the Arrow and is Senior Patrol Leader. He tutors friends (of all races and beliefs) before school. He gets to school 35 minutes early every day just for this, even the days after having chains and bars added to his braces and his mouth is throbbing. He has his Learner's Permit, he ushers at churchand he is active in the Youth Group and he spent his Spring Break helping break ground for a home for Habitat for humanities. Oh, did I mention he is the first to help collect and donate (his own money!) for all our Club functions? Well wounded...yep. And he understands and accepts other religions and non religions for others. He also knows how he feels and he has a WONDERFUL one on one relationship with God. Now, I could give you a similar list for my daughter but since she's only 6 years old, she hasn't been involved in as much. Do not assume that since I am a Christian and I raise my children as such that they are closed minded and I have warped them somehow!

As far as the closing of my last post, it was meant as a joke for the folks who are ready for an argument at the drop of a hat. And you proved my point.

[Soraya]

I think it is a matter of disengaging out defense mechanisms and trying to hear the other person. But we all have presuppositions so when I hear, "She likes science too much (her favorite class) to chuck logic out the window completely." My immediate reaction to that is "So as a Christian I am not logical." But you probably didn't mean that by it, but that is my first gut reaction. So you can see how statements can be taken out of context and words can be put into mouths and insinuations into the meaning behind those words.

I completely understand that....I admitted that I was not trying to be gentle.

However, there are two different things that are helping us continue to talk. Yes, Christianity can be the best choice for someone with faith, but how can you be Christian and logical? You can't..but the main part is that you don't have to be. It's called faith for a reason.

I've said from the beginning that faith is not logical and no one has certainly shown how it is.

As for the liking science bit....you may recall from my earlier posts that we are in an area that kids are excused from science class because of their parent's faith and people go to Natural History Museums and make sciences and denounce science.

How could my daughter like science, want to study it, and still have faith? I won't say it is impossible, because I know some folks that are Christians and have a great love of science, but it isn't the most likely from where I sit either.

Here is another way to look at it. Even with pushing each other's buttons a bit, why are you and I able to continue to have a mostly positive conversation?