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SuperTrooper wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:

SuperTrooper wrote:WEEI was having an interesting discussion on who is really "Mr. Clutch" in NY: Jeter or A-ROD?

Yankmee fans almost exclusively side with Jeter based on what they "see", but the statistical evidence points otherwise. Using the "close and late" stat (ABs 7th inning and later, team tied, leading or trailing by a run) since A-ROD joined the Yankmees:
Jeter .214, 8HR, 16 RBI
A-ROD .278. 14 HR, 28 RBI

I will grant that Jeter has usually hit leadoff during this period, reducing chances for RBIs, but the BA struck me as low for someone labelled "clutch".

it all comes down to Jeter is a winner and Arod isn't. Arod is a all around better ball player and as long as the Yankees continue to not win championships the man getting paid 24 million a year is going to take the majority of the blame. Here is an interesting question... whether your a Yankee fan or Sox fan would you trade Ramirez for Arod straight up?

Baseball is a team game and Jeter has been surrounded by some of the best baseball has to offer since the day he came to the majors. A-ROD has been part of an offensive lineup that has put up astounding numbers the past 3 years. The difference between these "good" Yankmee teams the the "great" teams is:

PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING

Hitting will cary you through the regular season, but pitching wins in the post season. A-ROD has never been on a team with enough pitching to win championships.

Well, this years pitching staff should have enough. I was cautiously optimistic this year coming in, thinking Johnson would have a better year now that he would be adjusted to NY, Moose would be Moose, a full year of those hard sinkers from Wang, Mr "I'm-Happy-as-Hell-To-Be-Out-Of Colorado" Shawn Chacon, and Wright and Small to fill innings at the end of the rotation.

Unfortunatley, Johnson seemed to have aged about 10 years, Chacon is on the DL, and Wright and Small have been inconsistant all year. Mussina has been better than expected, and Wang seemed to be doing well too until last night.

A great book came out recently Birth of a Dynasty by Joel Sherman that chronicles the 1996 team into so much depth its amazing. It's also amazing how much different the 1996 team was compared to the teams of recent years.

In general, it seems Torre's reign has been divided into two halves. One is 1996-2001 when they won 5 pennants in 6 years and 4 rings in 5 years. The teams were built on the ability to play small ball with marginal (not great) power on offense and a solid rotation that would give you everything they had everytime out. I think David Cone's first game after recovering from an aneurism in 96 seems to epitomize that sentiment. The bullpen was always solid and teams knew that Wettland and Rivera were lurking at the end of the game.
From 2002-2005 (I think it's too early to judge this year), the Yankees seemed to have returned to "Bronx Bomber fashion" and playing a style of offense that seems to be sit around and wait for the three run homer, and winning a lot of ugly 9-7 games with less emphasis on pitching.

SuperTrooper wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:

SuperTrooper wrote:WEEI was having an interesting discussion on who is really "Mr. Clutch" in NY: Jeter or A-ROD?

Yankmee fans almost exclusively side with Jeter based on what they "see", but the statistical evidence points otherwise. Using the "close and late" stat (ABs 7th inning and later, team tied, leading or trailing by a run) since A-ROD joined the Yankmees:
Jeter .214, 8HR, 16 RBI
A-ROD .278. 14 HR, 28 RBI

I will grant that Jeter has usually hit leadoff during this period, reducing chances for RBIs, but the BA struck me as low for someone labelled "clutch".

it all comes down to Jeter is a winner and Arod isn't. Arod is a all around better ball player and as long as the Yankees continue to not win championships the man getting paid 24 million a year is going to take the majority of the blame. Here is an interesting question... whether your a Yankee fan or Sox fan would you trade Ramirez for Arod straight up?

Baseball is a team game and Jeter has been surrounded by some of the best baseball has to offer since the day he came to the majors. A-ROD has been part of an offensive lineup that has put up astounding numbers the past 3 years. The difference between these "good" Yankmee teams the the "great" teams is:

PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING

Hitting will cary you through the regular season, but pitching wins in the post season. A-ROD has never been on a team with enough pitching to win championships.

i couldn't agree more....

SuperTrooper wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:

BottleofRum wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:

SuperTrooper wrote:WEEI was having an interesting discussion on who is really "Mr. Clutch" in NY: Jeter or A-ROD?

Yankmee fans almost exclusively side with Jeter based on what they "see", but the statistical evidence points otherwise. Using the "close and late" stat (ABs 7th inning and later, team tied, leading or trailing by a run) since A-ROD joined the Yankmees:
Jeter .214, 8HR, 16 RBI
A-ROD .278. 14 HR, 28 RBI

I will grant that Jeter has usually hit leadoff during this period, reducing chances for RBIs, but the BA struck me as low for someone labelled "clutch".

Would you trade Ramirez for Arod straight up?

If you factor in the salaries I say No. Manny has 2 years left @ $34M, Arod has 4 years left @ $100M. Salaries aside, I would do that trade and put him back at SS.

no salaries taken into consideration... I would gladly take AROD for Manny (as long as he loses the lip gloss )

If you will recall most Sox fans were in favor of this trade in the offseason 2003-2004. It would've happened if the union had allowed a deferment of some of A-ROD's salary. I often wonder what A-ROD's numbers would be playing 82 games at Fenway rather than Yankee Stadium.

Let's not forget that prior to 2004 Manny was known as a playoff choker.

81 games unless you're counting on a home 1 game playoff...

job41475 wrote:

SuperTrooper wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:

BottleofRum wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:

SuperTrooper wrote:WEEI was having an interesting discussion on who is really "Mr. Clutch" in NY: Jeter or A-ROD?

Yankmee fans almost exclusively side with Jeter based on what they "see", but the statistical evidence points otherwise. Using the "close and late" stat (ABs 7th inning and later, team tied, leading or trailing by a run) since A-ROD joined the Yankmees:
Jeter .214, 8HR, 16 RBI
A-ROD .278. 14 HR, 28 RBI

I will grant that Jeter has usually hit leadoff during this period, reducing chances for RBIs, but the BA struck me as low for someone labelled "clutch".

Would you trade Ramirez for Arod straight up?

If you factor in the salaries I say No. Manny has 2 years left @ $34M, Arod has 4 years left @ $100M. Salaries aside, I would do that trade and put him back at SS.

no salaries taken into consideration... I would gladly take AROD for Manny (as long as he loses the lip gloss )

If you will recall most Sox fans were in favor of this trade in the offseason 2003-2004. It would've happened if the union had allowed a deferment of some of A-ROD's salary. I often wonder what A-ROD's numbers would be playing 82 games at Fenway rather than Yankee Stadium.

Let's not forget that prior to 2004 Manny was known as a playoff choker.

81 games unless you're counting on a home 1 game playoff...

The most disturbing part about last night's game, and there were many disturbing things but at the top was the fact they could not score of Jarret Wright, one of the worst starters in baseball and they still couldn't score off him.


I found this picture today, it is from the 1960's when the Patriots used to play at Fenway.

BottleofRum wrote:The most disturbing part about last night's game, and there were many disturbing things but at the top was the fact they could not score of Jarret Wright, one of the worst starters in baseball and they still couldn't score off him.


I found this picture today, it is from the 1960's when the Patriots used to play at Fenway.

He has been pitching better the last two starts, though i'm still wary. A-Rod actually hit a meaningful homer last night that temporarily halted some Sox momentum (till Farnsworth, Procter, and Myers decided to walk the entire lineup).

And would you guys mind since we always get your struggling players back on track (aka Manny and Schilling) that you could get the Unit back on track? Thanks.

jonesbeach10 wrote:

BottleofRum wrote:The most disturbing part about last night's game, and there were many disturbing things but at the top was the fact they could not score of Jarret Wright, one of the worst starters in baseball and they still couldn't score off him.


I found this picture today, it is from the 1960's when the Patriots used to play at Fenway.

He has been pitching better the last two starts, though i'm still wary. A-Rod actually hit a meaningful homer last night that temporarily halted some Sox momentum (till Farnsworth, Procter, and Myers decided to walk the entire lineup).

And would you guys mind since we always get your struggling players back on track (aka Manny and Schilling) that you could get the Unit back on track? Thanks.

Sox s*** vs. Lefties so tonight could be ugly for them again. Although, their best game this season vs. a lefty was against Johnson .

But, Clement is pitching for the Red Sox and he is also in that "one of the worst starters in baseball" category

Jeter is 2 hits shy of 2,000, I wonder if he gets 2 tonight and they post it on the big board if he gets an ovation. I guess it would depend on the current game situation when it happens.

BottleofRum wrote:Jeter is 2 hits shy of 2,000, I wonder if he gets 2 tonight and they post it on the big board if he gets an ovation. I guess it would depend on the current game situation when it happens.

IF he gets those hits tonight, the real baseball fans will applaud him.
They always do.
Unless THE hit is a game winning homer against their team, most fans are usually quick to acknowledge another player's success. (Unless he wears # 25 and plays for a certain National League team in the Bay Area),

I remember game 6 of the 1991 World Series like it was yesterday.
Just before he died, Kirby Puckett made an appearance at Turner Field in Atlanta, and the fans there gave him a 20-minute standing ovation, and WOULD NOT let him leave the field.
Hell, that had ME crying.
Of course, Kirby Puckett was no Barry Bonds.

Manny Ramirez has three hits lifetime against Proctor.
all of them are quadruples

[sigh of relief]
That is why Derek Jeter is definitely NOT the most overrated player in baseball!!!
A win with the Unit on the mound is a huge success.
Somehow, for the most part of the series, Papi was held in check.
Mo's still got it.

jonesbeach10 wrote:[sigh of relief]
That is why Derek Jeter is definitely NOT the most overrated player in baseball!!!
A win with the Unit on the mound is a huge success.
Somehow, for the most part of the series, Papi was held in check.
Mo's still got it.

I'm sure tomorrow we'll be hearing how it was a bad call by the umpire.
And NO, Derek Jeter is NOT over-rated.

Wino you know wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:[sigh of relief]
That is why Derek Jeter is definitely NOT the most overrated player in baseball!!!
A win with the Unit on the mound is a huge success.
Somehow, for the most part of the series, Papi was held in check.
Mo's still got it.

I'm sure tomorrow we'll be hearing how it was a bad call by the umpire.
And NO, Derek Jeter is NOT over-rated.

I think the home plate umpire was erratic the whole game on both sides. The strike zone was either extremely large or very small, the rest of the umpires were fine but they didn't have any affect on the out come of the game though, Terry Francoma being a p*** poor retarded manager that he is butchered the last two games enough, leaving Wakefield in too long last night with a rested bullpen and for reason's I will never understand he stuck with Clement 2 innings too long tonight when it was clear he couldn't throw the ball over the plate.

God I miss the days of Grady Little....and yes I am serious.

BottleofRum wrote:

Wino you know wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:[sigh of relief]
That is why Derek Jeter is definitely NOT the most overrated player in baseball!!!
A win with the Unit on the mound is a huge success.
Somehow, for the most part of the series, Papi was held in check.
Mo's still got it.

I'm sure tomorrow we'll be hearing how it was a bad call by the umpire.
And NO, Derek Jeter is NOT over-rated.

I think the home plate umpire was erratic the whole game on both sides. The strike zone was either extremely large or very small, the rest of the umpires were fine but they didn't have any affect on the out come of the game though, Terry Francoma being a p*** poor retarded manager that he is butchered the last two games enough, leaving Wakefield in too long last night with a rested bullpen and for reason's I will never understand he stuck with Clement 2 innings too long tonight when it was clear he couldn't throw the ball over the plate.

God I miss the days of Grady Little....and yes I am serious.

Grady would probably still been there if HE hadn't stuck with Pedro for ONE inning too long....

BottleofRum wrote:God I miss the days of Grady Little....and yes I am serious.

I thought the Red Sox made a big mistake when they let him go. (Not that Francona has been all that bad-he DID help erase the "curse", among other things).
But for Little to be remembered for ONE GAME is about as bad as Bill Buckner being remembered for ONE PLAY.

Wino you know wrote:

BottleofRum wrote:God I miss the days of Grady Little....and yes I am serious.

I thought the Red Sox made a big mistake when they let him go. (Not that Francona has been all that bad-he DID help erase the "curse", among other things).
But for Little to be remembered for ONE GAME is about as bad as Bill Buckner being remembered for ONE PLAY.

Grady Little did more with less, just look at the 2003 Red Sox team no Schilling, no Foulke and John Burkett and Jeff Suppan in the rotation - Byung-Hyun Kim, Scott Sauerbeck and Ramiro Mendoza in the bullpen with no legit closer and he still got them within 5 outs of the World Series.

The 2004 team was far superior than the 2003 team in every area (Schilling, Foulke, Myers, Leskanic, Youklis, Arroyo, Dave Roberts, Meintkiewicz, Cabera...) and they came within 3 outs of being swept in the ALCS.

They won in 2004 in despite of Francona not because of him.

My memory is a bit cloudy, but didn't they begin their 2004 comeback with one out in the 8th inning, thus making it FIVE OUTS from being swept? (Not that it matters NOW).
I was actually more amazed in 2004 when they beat the Cardinals in four consecutive games in the world series than I was when they came back to beat the Yankees four straight.
Sh*t happens, and so does baseball.

Wino you know wrote:My memory is a bit cloudy, but didn't they begin their 2004 comeback with one out in the 8th inning, thus making it FIVE OUTS from being swept? (Not that it matters NOW).
I was actually more amazed in 2004 when they beat the Cardinals in four consecutive games in the world series than I was when they came back to beat the Yankees four straight.
Sh*t happens, and so does baseball.

In 2004 game 4 ALCS they were down in the 9th inning by a run. Millar led the inning off with a walk, Dave Roberts pitch ran and you know the rest...

In game 5 they were down by 2 runs in the 8th inning and tied it.

I do remember most of game 5.
The Yankees had chances in games 4, 5, & 6 to wrap it up and didn't.
The only game that was a total blowout, of course, was game 7.

Wino you know wrote:I do remember most of game 5.
The Yankees had chances in games 4, 5, & 6 to wrap it up and didn't.
The only game that was a total blowout, of course, was game 7.

That game 5 was one of the best games ever. Both teams had chances in extra innings. The Yankees got a bad break when Tony Clark's double down the RF line bounced over the wall in the 10th, had it stayed in play Sierra would have scored. The Red Sox bullpen threw 8 straight shutout innings and won it on a broken bat single by Ortiz. I think games 4 and 5 are the only time Rivera has blown back-to-back saves in the post season.

I do remember Tony Clark coming to bat in the 10th (or maybe the 11th) inning of one of those games with two guys on base. I thought to myself IF HE COULD JUST PARK ONE, it would be over.
Of course, that didn't happen.

I THINK you may be right about Riviera-I don't remember him blowing back to back saves any other time.
Leave it to David Ortiz.