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Moonie wrote:
The fact remains...we have more coming in..(or trying) than going out...that speaks for itself...

That's a red herring, because the thread was about job security in the USA. And I and Flyboy have gone to great, GREAT lengths to avoid saying that so-and-so's system is across-the-board better, but what we are saying is "pay attention, because if they can do it we sure can too."

Anyway, the reasons that so many Meixcans want to migrate are pretty complex but the bottom line is that NOT ALL Mexicans want to do so. And many of the ones that have migrated are saving their money with the intent to move back home some day. Which is, when you get right down to it, the American way!

Fact: You have few middle class Mexicans trying to get across the border. The ones that come here are almost all poor people from rural villages.

Fact: It's strictly economic. They feel that they can earn more here as laborers and they are willing to risk their lives to do so. It's not like Mexico doesn't have jobs, they basically don't want to be peasants or farm laborers all of their lives, but rather want to get ahead.

And to my way of thinking there ain't nothing wrong with that. It's a bit of a pity that we don't have more people in the USA who want to do international business -- certainly the British Empire and many Europeans nations were legendary for their seamanship and trading skills. Instead of getting bent out of shape over minimum-wage earning people who are trying to get ahead, we need to develop the next series of electronic devices that the rest of the world needs.

Alas, we ain't going that way lately.

Moonie wrote:The fiasco that Medicare has become in the last 15/20 years, alone...tells you that you do not want the Federal Govt. involved anymore than they already are...in Health Care...

we may/do need something, but it's not the Feds. running it..

If it's not industry (which seems intent on lining only their pockets) and it's not the Feds, then who's going to do it?

My opinion: We need to expect better things (like ethics and competence) from the Feds and we need to change the goals for industry (such as "numbers of happy patients" rather than "dollars earned."

There are no simple solutions. But clearly we need to do some serious soul searching and find a way to work this mess out.

PirateJohn wrote:

Moonie wrote:
The fact remains...we have more coming in..(or trying) than going out...that speaks for itself...

That's a red herring, because the thread was about job security in the USA. And I and Flyboy have gone to great, GREAT lengths to avoid saying that so-and-so's system is across-the-board better, but what we are saying is "pay attention, because if they can do it we sure can too."

Anyway, the reasons that so many Meixcans want to migrate are pretty complex but the bottom line is that NOT ALL Mexicans want to do so. And many of the ones that have migrated are saving their money with the intent to move back home some day. Which is, when you get right down to it, the American way!

Fact: You have few middle class Mexicans trying to get across the border. The ones that come here are almost all poor people from rural villages.

Fact: It's strictly economic. They feel that they can earn more here as laborers and they are willing to risk their lives to do so. It's not like Mexico doesn't have jobs, they basically don't want to be peasants or farm laborers all of their lives, but rather want to get ahead.

And to my way of thinking there ain't nothing wrong with that. It's a bit of a pity that we don't have more people in the USA who want to do international business -- certainly the British Empire and many Europeans nations were legendary for their seamanship and trading skills. Instead of getting bent out of shape over minimum-wage earning people who are trying to get ahead, we need to develop the next series of electronic devices that the rest of the world needs.

Alas, we ain't going that way lately.

Whois wanting to prevent people from getting ahead or advancing themselves??

It is about a little thing called THE LAW!!!! What other laws are you for breaking?

What about those that worked hard to be here legally?
What do you say to them?

I am not sure what the Illegals are paying Coyotes to smuggle them across but it certainly is a lot of money.

Oh yeah... what about the way Mexico treats Illegals there? Why have you not mentioned that?

krusin1 wrote:
No offense, but I've been hearing that same prediction about the U.S. being overtaken by (fill in the name of Country X here) for the last thirty years. Hasn't happened. Why not? IMHO because we don't go over-regulate (strangle) businesses like many, many other countries do.

Will the U.S. get overtaken economically by China or India or ?? Maybe. Again, depends greatly on how government treats the people and businesses that keep the economy rolling. .

No offense taken Mon. It's good to get back to a civil debate.

Personally, from what I have seen, many businesses in the USA are regulated out the wazoo while their counterparts in other nations are less regulated. I was looking into importing seafood and one of the extremely non-partisan trade magazines commented on the number of new regulations that had been put into place by the current administration to protect their business allies. So, depending on the industry and the other specific nations that you want to discuss, I don't totally buy into the notion that we are deregulated. We deregulated telephone service and trucking, and that's about it (not literally, but for the purposes of this discussion ... )

I remember all of the discussion of Japan taking over the world. Hasn't happened yet, and doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.

China, on the other hand, is another case. With 1/6th of the world's population (we are what ... 1/20th?) and tremendous land mass, they have resources to carry out things that Japan could only dream of.

And for those who think that the Chinese aren't technologically savvy, you need to watch CCTV (Chinese Central TV) some time. Shanghai has become a model city, and it looks like something out of the Jetsons.

Anywho, the Chinese are rolling along like the Juggernaut (the Krishna one, not the comic book one) and I guess that anything is possible, but I sure to see them as a friendly but inevitable threat to the US in the sense that we are all going to be poor people unless we get our acts together. NAFTA is a good start and we need to stop dragging our feet.

PirateJohn wrote:

krusin1 wrote:
No offense, but I've been hearing that same prediction about the U.S. being overtaken by (fill in the name of Country X here) for the last thirty years. Hasn't happened. Why not? IMHO because we don't go over-regulate (strangle) businesses like many, many other countries do.

Will the U.S. get overtaken economically by China or India or ?? Maybe. Again, depends greatly on how government treats the people and businesses that keep the economy rolling. .

No offense taken Mon. It's good to get back to a civil debate.

Personally, from what I have seen, many businesses in the USA are regulated out the wazoo while their counterparts in other nations are less regulated. I was looking into importing seafood and one of the extremely non-partisan trade magazines commented on the number of new regulations that had been put into place by the current administration to protect their business allies. So, depending on the industry and the other specific nations that you want to discuss, I don't totally buy into the notion that we are deregulated. We deregulated telephone service and trucking, and that's about it (not literally, but for the purposes of this discussion ... )

I remember all of the discussion of Japan taking over the world. Hasn't happened yet, and doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.

China, on the other hand, is another case. With 1/6th of the world's population (we are what ... 1/20th?) and tremendous land mass, they have resources to carry out things that Japan could only dream of.

And for those who think that the Chinese aren't technologically savvy, you need to watch CCTV (Chinese Central TV) some time. Shanghai has become a model city, and it looks like something out of the Jetsons.

Anywho, the Chinese are rolling along like the Juggernaut (the Krishna one, not the comic book one) and I guess that anything is possible, but I sure to see them as a friendly but inevitable threat to the US in the sense that we are all going to be poor people unless we get our acts together. NAFTA is a good start and we need to stop dragging our feet.

BLEEP!!! They have threateed to Nuke us! Oh yeah let us not forget about their prison labor.......no wonder they can produce so cheaply...

Moonie wrote:thank god..and pass the frijoles... all aren't wanting to come here...

the majority I've knows...are here legally..and are from the INTERIOR of Mexico...not border or rural towns..

your observations and conclusions are just that...your perspective on the matter...

doesn't mean that someone else's observation, conclusions or perspective aren't correct...anymore than yours are..

True, but I am passing along what I have heard from an economist in Mexico City who has been studying the immigration arguments for some time. He and I correspond every so often. I would say that his observations are more than casual observation.

And FWIW his contention is that the exodus from Mexico isn't a lack of jobs at all since Mexican unemployment is something like 5% or less, but simply that jobs for laborers are better in the States.

That, and my middle class pals in Monterrey (200 miles from the Mexican border) were completely unaware of the Minutemen and that nonsense when I was in Monterrey in January. For the middle classes in Monterrey as long as they can shop at the malls in McAllen, TX they frankly don't care. They sell steel and electronics in Europe and vacation in New York and San Diego.

You said that you have spent time in Mexico. What parts, our of curiosity?

PirateJohn wrote:

krusin1 wrote:
No offense, but I've been hearing that same prediction about the U.S. being overtaken by (fill in the name of Country X here) for the last thirty years. Hasn't happened. Why not? IMHO because we don't go over-regulate (strangle) businesses like many, many other countries do.

Will the U.S. get overtaken economically by China or India or ?? Maybe. Again, depends greatly on how government treats the people and businesses that keep the economy rolling. .

No offense taken Mon. It's good to get back to a civil debate.

Personally, from what I have seen, many businesses in the USA are regulated out the wazoo while their counterparts in other nations are less regulated. I was looking into importing seafood and one of the extremely non-partisan trade magazines commented on the number of new regulations that had been put into place by the current administration to protect their business allies. So, depending on the industry and the other specific nations that you want to discuss, I don't totally buy into the notion that we are deregulated. We deregulated telephone service and trucking, and that's about it (not literally, but for the purposes of this discussion ... )

I remember all of the discussion of Japan taking over the world. Hasn't happened yet, and doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.

China, on the other hand, is another case. With 1/6th of the world's population (we are what ... 1/20th?) and tremendous land mass, they have resources to carry out things that Japan could only dream of.

And for those who think that the Chinese aren't technologically savvy, you need to watch CCTV (Chinese Central TV) some time. Shanghai has become a model city, and it looks like something out of the Jetsons.

Anywho, the Chinese are rolling along like the Juggernaut (the Krishna one, not the comic book one) and I guess that anything is possible, but I sure to see them as a friendly but inevitable threat to the US in the sense that we are all going to be poor people unless we get our acts together. NAFTA is a good start and we need to stop dragging our feet.

Got to say PirateJohn, you're an interesting mix of viewpoints. A page or so ago, you were speaking positively of national healthcare and regulating the ability of business to dismiss employees. Here, though, you're on the record decrying regulation of businesses, in support of NAFTA, and worried about how economically powerful China will be (a concern I share, BTW.)

Just curious... if you were a congressman, what would your first three pieces of legislation do?

(Really not trying to put you on the spot/embarass/whatever. Just trying to get a better handle on your stances.)

Sam wrote:

PirateJohn wrote:

krusin1 wrote:
No offense, but I've been hearing that same prediction about the U.S. being overtaken by (fill in the name of Country X here) for the last thirty years. Hasn't happened. Why not? IMHO because we don't go over-regulate (strangle) businesses like many, many other countries do.

Will the U.S. get overtaken economically by China or India or ?? Maybe. Again, depends greatly on how government treats the people and businesses that keep the economy rolling. .

No offense taken Mon. It's good to get back to a civil debate.

Personally, from what I have seen, many businesses in the USA are regulated out the wazoo while their counterparts in other nations are less regulated. I was looking into importing seafood and one of the extremely non-partisan trade magazines commented on the number of new regulations that had been put into place by the current administration to protect their business allies. So, depending on the industry and the other specific nations that you want to discuss, I don't totally buy into the notion that we are deregulated. We deregulated telephone service and trucking, and that's about it (not literally, but for the purposes of this discussion ... )

I remember all of the discussion of Japan taking over the world. Hasn't happened yet, and doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.

China, on the other hand, is another case. With 1/6th of the world's population (we are what ... 1/20th?) and tremendous land mass, they have resources to carry out things that Japan could only dream of.

And for those who think that the Chinese aren't technologically savvy, you need to watch CCTV (Chinese Central TV) some time. Shanghai has become a model city, and it looks like something out of the Jetsons.

Anywho, the Chinese are rolling along like the Juggernaut (the Krishna one, not the comic book one) and I guess that anything is possible, but I sure to see them as a friendly but inevitable threat to the US in the sense that we are all going to be poor people unless we get our acts together. NAFTA is a good start and we need to stop dragging our feet.

BLEEP!!! They have threateed to Nuke us! Oh yeah let us not forget about their prison labor.......no wonder they can produce so cheaply...

I presume that you aren't confusing the Chinese with the Koreans. The Koreans are currently making veiled threats; the Chinese haven't said anything like that since Mao died.

Don't get me wrong. The Chinese present a very friendly face, which makes sense because we have been preaching free trade for 100-200 years and now they see that they will beat us at our own game. And I certainly don't want today's USA to have a culture like today's China.

But with that said and done I don't see the Chinese people as being as oppressed as conservatives in the USA would like us to believe. There are exceptions -- read further in this commentary -- but the rural Chinese seem content and as China rebuilds their middle class IN MOST AREAS OF CHINA there doesn't seem to be any sense of helplessness or rebellion.

As far as prison labor goes, well ... we have as many people in prison per capita as they do. We have prison factories. Pot, kettle, black. I think that a lot of that talk is extreme.

Now, in your defense, I did have a pal from the motorcycle club that I'm the President of take a trip to China to see a manufacturing plant for something that he is importing, and he said that the town was really nasty except for the 5-star hotel where they kept him. He said that the lot of a southern Chinese laborer sucked, and told various other stories that made it plain that it was much better to be a have than a have not (he said that his driver, in a Mercedes, hit someone on a bicycle, got out of the car, and kicked the s*** out of the poor schmuck as the bicyclist laid on the ground). On the other hand the hookers at the hotel were very attractive, or so I was told.

Anyway, I present China not as a model of the way that I want things to be, but rather as a reality of what we have to compete against. Nuking them isn't the answer. We need to compete economically.

I might add that my experience with the Chinese that I know here in town has shown me that they are very, very nice people on a social level. But once again, I think that it's fair to say that it's better to be a have than a have not. I wouldn't want to be cooking at the restaruant that I eat at weekly (the owner has his aunt and a bunch of Mexican guys in the kitchen) nor would I want to be working at a Southern Chinese widget factory.

For that matter, I wouldn't want to be making widgets in Tallahassee either

PirateJohn wrote:

Sam wrote:

PirateJohn wrote:

krusin1 wrote:
No offense, but I've been hearing that same prediction about the U.S. being overtaken by (fill in the name of Country X here) for the last thirty years. Hasn't happened. Why not? IMHO because we don't go over-regulate (strangle) businesses like many, many other countries do.

Will the U.S. get overtaken economically by China or India or ?? Maybe. Again, depends greatly on how government treats the people and businesses that keep the economy rolling. .

No offense taken Mon. It's good to get back to a civil debate.

Personally, from what I have seen, many businesses in the USA are regulated out the wazoo while their counterparts in other nations are less regulated. I was looking into importing seafood and one of the extremely non-partisan trade magazines commented on the number of new regulations that had been put into place by the current administration to protect their business allies. So, depending on the industry and the other specific nations that you want to discuss, I don't totally buy into the notion that we are deregulated. We deregulated telephone service and trucking, and that's about it (not literally, but for the purposes of this discussion ... )

I remember all of the discussion of Japan taking over the world. Hasn't happened yet, and doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.

China, on the other hand, is another case. With 1/6th of the world's population (we are what ... 1/20th?) and tremendous land mass, they have resources to carry out things that Japan could only dream of.

And for those who think that the Chinese aren't technologically savvy, you need to watch CCTV (Chinese Central TV) some time. Shanghai has become a model city, and it looks like something out of the Jetsons.

Anywho, the Chinese are rolling along like the Juggernaut (the Krishna one, not the comic book one) and I guess that anything is possible, but I sure to see them as a friendly but inevitable threat to the US in the sense that we are all going to be poor people unless we get our acts together. NAFTA is a good start and we need to stop dragging our feet.

BLEEP!!! They have threateed to Nuke us! Oh yeah let us not forget about their prison labor.......no wonder they can produce so cheaply...

I presume that you aren't confusing the Chinese with the Koreans. The Koreans are currently making veiled threats; the Chinese haven't said anything like that since Mao died.

Don't get me wrong. The Chinese present a very friendly face, which makes sense because we have been preaching free trade for 100-200 years and now they see that they will beat us at our own game. And I certainly don't want today's USA to have a culture like today's China.

But with that said and done I don't see the Chinese people as being as oppressed as conservatives in the USA would like us to believe. There are exceptions -- read further in this commentary -- but the rural Chinese seem content and as China rebuilds their middle class IN MOST AREAS OF CHINA there doesn't seem to be any sense of helplessness or rebellion.

As far as prison labor goes, well ... we have as many people in prison per capita as they do. We have prison factories. Pot, kettle, black. I think that a lot of that talk is extreme.

Now, in your defense, I did have a pal from the motorcycle club that I'm the President of take a trip to China to see a manufacturing plant for something that he is importing, and he said that the town was really nasty except for the 5-star hotel where they kept him. He said that the lot of a southern Chinese laborer sucked, and told various other stories that made it plain that it was much better to be a have than a have not (he said that his driver, in a Mercedes, hit someone on a bicycle, got out of the car, and kicked the s*** out of the poor schmuck as the bicyclist laid on the ground). On the other hand the hookers at the hotel were very attractive, or so I was told.

Anyway, I present China not as a model of the way that I want things to be, but rather as a reality of what we have to compete against. Nuking them isn't the answer. We need to compete economically.

I might add that my experience with the Chinese that I know here in town has shown me that they are very, very nice people on a social level. But once again, I think that it's fair to say that it's better to be a have than a have not. I wouldn't want to be cooking at the restaruant that I eat at weekly (the owner has his aunt and a bunch of Mexican guys in the kitchen) nor would I want to be working at a Southern Chinese widget factory.

For that matter, I wouldn't want to be making widgets in Tallahassee either

NO I don't have any confusion between China and the NK. If you think that then you are not as informed as you think you are.

I suggest you do some research on China and world events. China has clearly threatened to nuke us. One of their admirals even said/reccommended nuking us. China is not all that you make it out or think it to be. I have a very good friend that travels there several times a year.
Until recently in the past 10-15 years or so China did not have ICBMs, believe it or not.

Will you drop the labels already? I haven't labeled you anything. Though well I could if I chose to, but I won't bother. Not erveryone you have labeled believes as you seem to think they do.

As for prison labor here and and in China, ...well what do our prisoners make here and who do they produce it for? Care to say the same of the Chinese with their prison force? If you know so much about the system there then you already know the differences and there is no comparison.

Care to say China is "really" progressing, with the limits they have placed on the search engines and the requirements placed on them, before they are allowed there?

Sure China is advancing and possibly MAY BE a problem in the future, however I would not neccessarily count on it. As has been said before....we have heard it about any numerous countries before.
China may turn out to be an ally to the US, and China may well do what China does best......

America still has the lead in technology, and will maintain it far into the forseeable future.

krusin1 wrote:
Just curious... if you were a congressman, what would your first three pieces of legislation do?

(Really not trying to put you on the spot/embarass/whatever. Just trying to get a better handle on your stances.)

Whew. I'd have to think about that one! Let's put it this-a-way ... if I made a proposal I'd have my numbers in a row. We are sitting here killing time and BSing. Fun though it is, this is a long way away from authoring a bill

My kneejerk reaction to that question would most likely be something along these lines:

1st bill: Immigation reform.

Big picture: Because we need their labor, coupled with our designs, to compete internationally. NAFTA is going in the correct direction, we need to keep the ball rolling ... and get a handle on the millions of Mexican nationals that are in the USA.

Components: Guest worker program coupled with positive identification and stronger reinforcement of the US and Canadian borders.

Fine print:

Migrants ain't going home. That's a fact, whether anyone believes otherwise or not. Rather than making them outlaws, bring them into the system, expect them to comply with drivers license laws and so forth. Treat them like human beings, and give them a realistic shot at citizenship if they want it (I personally don't think that many would want it if they could work here and return to Mexico. And the folks that return to Mexico will help to build the economy down there, so everyone is happy).

On the other hand deploy the military along the border. They aren't going to shoot anyone - quite the contrary. They are there to rescue and detain anyone foolish enough to try to sneak in. And to keep the undesireables out.

You want to build a fence? Personally, I think it is stupidly expensive, but let's say that you build segments. Hire migrants to build it.

Bring more Hispanics into the law enforcement arena. Most of the migrants that I know want to be good neighbors; they will help to weed out the troublemakers if they don't have to worry about the US version of La Migra dragging them away.


Bill #2: Perhaps along the lines of what we have been discusing about healthcare and job security. Call it the Genuine Homeland Security bill.

Someone has to break the impasse between healthcare companies that are earning tremendous amounts of money, yet we do want them to continue developing drugs, and poor people with no insurance who are finding that their drugs are priced out of their reach.

My gut feeling is that if the USA had a basic health care program, and that program negotiated the price of drugs and health care to some standard along the lines of what HMO's do, then that would be a step in the right direction. People in dire medical need should not have to wait until their conditions are critical before they receive care, and that's the system that we arguably have now.

There would always be a provision for employers to offer add'l coverage and for individuals to purchase supplementary coverage. Thus, if you are not satisfied with "socialized medicine" then that's cool. You pay the difference, you get what you want.


There ain't no such thing as a free lunch and I'm inclined to say (kneejerk reaction, again) that government (after all, supposedly the Big G is already paying expenses that would go into another fund if this idea were to be accepted), employers, and employees would have to contribute, the proportions to be decided later. The unemployed would have to be funded by the general fund, i.e. the guv'mint.

Couple basic healthcare with some guarantees to employees that their jobs are a bit more secure, and you would have a genuine piece of Homeland Security.


3rd bill: Drugs are ruining so many lives in this nation. Something needs to be done. And the whole thing is just so frickin' non-productive. Even if you change the laws simply to try something different that works for me because what we have been doing hasn't been working.

Answer: legalize some level of personal use drugs, and to be honest I don't have a lot of familiarity with this one. But I would think that quite a stash of marijuana should be legal. Ditto perhaps small quantities of other recreational drugs. Make drug treatment available under Bill #2 above.



4th bill: Too much BS and not enough efficiency in public schools. Yet I wouldn't want to go too far towards encouraging private schools with fringe attitudes, so if we do vouchers those private schools need to be teaching the kids readin', writin', and 'rithmatic, not that the universe was created in six days. We need to teach a generation of mathematicians
(spelling?) how to apply those skills in the international marketplace, not how to do teach other mathematicians, who will teach other mathematicians, etc., etc.

I am not 100% sure how you would do that but in a break from the perception that liberals want kids to learn touchy-feely things, I say that we need some academic competition. Grades are grades, kids need to know if they are living up to their abilities, and the brighter kids need to be pushed past the kids that cannot or will not behave in class.


That's 4 bills. Should I continue??

(voices in background saying PLEASE DON'T!)

PirateJohn wrote:My kneejerk reaction to that question would most likely be something along these lines:

Actually, I'm quite impressed. There were a lot of pretty well thought out good points in those bills. I need to re-read through them to be able to put real thought behind them, but I think that's a pretty good list.

Sam wrote:
NO I don't have any confusion between China and the NK. If you think that then you are not as informed as you think you are.

Don't have a bit of trouble. One's the green nation on my globe, the other one is the blue nation on my globe

Sam wrote: I suggest you do some research on China and world events. China has clearly threatened to nuke us. One of their admirals even said/reccommended nuking us. China is not all that you make it out or think it to be. I have a very good friend that travels there several times a year.
Until recently in the past 10-15 years or so China did not have ICBMs, believe it or not.

Trust me, as I have said repeatedly, China ain't exactly my idea of a role model. I don't want to call them an enemy either. They are a competitor, and one has to know the competition.

I haven't heard this comment being from a "Chinese admiral," but knowing how things get blown out of perspective, and knowing how few Anglos can speak Chinese, I have to take that one with a grain of salt.

Hey, I see stuff on the 'net every day about nuking the Chinese and nuking the Arabs. I don't take that nonsense seriously.

Trust me, China doesn't really want to nuke us. We owe them so much money, they simply don't want to have to wait 2,000 years before their future ancestors can spend it.

Sam wrote:

Will you drop the labels already? I haven't labeled you anything. Though well I could if I chose to, but I won't bother. Not erveryone you have labeled believes as you seem to think they do.

What labels, he asks naively? Conservative?

Sam wrote: As for prison labor here and and in China, ...well what do our prisoners make here and who do they produce it for? Care to say the same of the Chinese with their prison force? If you know so much about the system there then you already know the differences and there is no comparison.

A buddy of mine got $1 a day for 10 years by making matresses at the Federal Pen in Atlanta back in the 70's. He parlayed that into two rental mobile homes and actually had some $$$ waiting for him when he got out. Still, that obviously isn't a lot of money.

Sam wrote: Care to say China is "really" progressing, with the limits they have placed on the search engines and the requirements placed on them, before they are allowed there?

Sure China is advancing and possibly MAY BE a problem in the future, however I would not neccessarily count on it. As has been said before....we have heard it about any numerous countries before.
China may turn out to be an ally to the US, and China may well do what China does best......

America still has the lead in technology, and will maintain it far into the forseeable future.

For about the 90th time, I do not endorse everything the Chinese are doing. However, they are our competition and we need to be realistic. Compared to the Mao days their society has opened tremendously. The appear to be the most successful Commie government by far, and the #1 lesson that they seem to have learned is that they are actually listening to their citizens in order to avoid a revolt. They have a very efficient government. Notice that I said efficient. I didn't say fair, or "I want one like that" of anything of the sort.

We hold a technological lead. I would suggest that we re-evaluate in 20 years. By then I will be 70. The Chinese think in terms of thousands of years and dozens of generations. I will just be happy if my Social Security checks don't bounce

sy wrote:

PirateJohn wrote:My kneejerk reaction to that question would most likely be something along these lines:

Actually, I'm quite impressed. There were a lot of pretty well thought out good points in those bills. I need to re-read through them to be able to put real thought behind them, but I think that's a pretty good list.

Bless you SY!

And I saw your other comments and wanted to answer them but, alas ... just haven't had the time. Trust me, I'm not ignorin' ya!

PirateJohn wrote:

krusin1 wrote:
Just curious... if you were a congressman, what would your first three pieces of legislation do?

(Really not trying to put you on the spot/embarass/whatever. Just trying to get a better handle on your stances.)

Whew. I'd have to think about that one! Let's put it this-a-way ... if I made a proposal I'd have my numbers in a row. We are sitting here killing time and BSing. Fun though it is, this is a long way away from authoring a bill

~snip~

All right. Kudos to PirateJohn for a thoughtful response to my (hopefully) thoughtful question.

Just so you know, PJ, I'm with you on immigration, think the healthcare and drug ideas won't work, and can probably meet you in the middle on education.

They oughta put us in congress. You and I could actually have a legitimate, reasonable debate about issues that matter. Probably bore the heck out of the media (lack of hissy fits and name-calling) but might just do the country some good.

China is a the greeen nation and NK isn't or do I have that backwards?

HMMMMM yeah take a look at how many toxic spills have occured in China lately....
Also you may not recall the the one saying it and I have forgotten his name, I assure you nothing was mistranslated in the threat or the person advocating the proposal.
You are damn well pleased to think what you like. Niether changes the matter of fact of what was said.
Oh yeah let's remember Tinnamen Square.....

I also HIGHLY suggest you take a look at what China has said about the "Free China" and what they will do to defend it.

If you are so smart then you won't give a BLEEP about Social Security....you won't need the money...as I said before ..it is only a supplement to one's retirement.

Who did your friend make those mattresses for and who were the mattresses sold to?
Care to say the mattresses are sold by a large company/corporation?

ONE MORE TIME>>>YOU HAVE NOT MENTIONED MEXICO'S STANCE ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION OR THE WAY THEY TREAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ... GEE I wonder why...... Maybe if America treated all Illegals the Way Mexico treats theirs..... you MIGHT have a point, on how the Illegals are treated here.

krusin1 wrote:

PirateJohn wrote:

krusin1 wrote:
Just curious... if you were a congressman, what would your first three pieces of legislation do?

(Really not trying to put you on the spot/embarass/whatever. Just trying to get a better handle on your stances.)

Whew. I'd have to think about that one! Let's put it this-a-way ... if I made a proposal I'd have my numbers in a row. We are sitting here killing time and BSing. Fun though it is, this is a long way away from authoring a bill

~snip~

All right. Kudos to PirateJohn for a thoughtful response to my (hopefully) thoughtful question.

Just so you know, PJ, I'm with you on immigration, think the healthcare and drug ideas won't work, and can probably meet you in the middle on education.

They oughta put us in congress. You and I could actually have a legitimate, reasonable debate about issues that matter. Probably bore the heck out of the media (lack of hissy fits and name-calling) but might just do the country some good.

Hasn't been a good shootin' in Congress for years ...

Naw, actually that was a pretty cool little exercise, and I appreciate your comments, Mon.

Sam wrote: Oh yeah let's remember Tinnamen Square..... .

How can we? According to CCTV it never happened

Actually, the tale is much longer than that but that's for another discussion. And when I was reading the writeup at Wikipedia I saw some things that contradicted what I thought, and so I just thought that I'd STFU until I had a third opinion.

We had Waco. They had Tinnamen Square. Both horrible mistakes involving dissidents and innocents.

Sam wrote: I also HIGHLY suggest you take a look at what China has said about the "Free China" and what they will do to defend it.

.

Yeah, but they consider Formosa (Taiwan) to be a rogue state. And currently most of the world, including the US officially, feels the same way. We wouldn't take it very kindly if Castro were trying to encourage Florida to revolt, either. And the official line with Mainland China is that they want peaceful trade, followed by peaceful reunification and no reprisals.

We'll see. Personally, I can see their point. And my understanding is that sentiment on Taiwan runs strongly towards an eventual reunification.

Sam wrote:
If you are so smart then you won't give a BLEEP about Social Security....you won't need the money...as I said before ..it is only a supplement to one's retirement. .

Well ... I'm a cautious person at times. I wear a belt *AND* suspenders

Seriously, for most folks it's their primary form of retirement.

Personally, I hope to work until I drop dead, with sporadic forays to travel. But you never can tell what may happen. I could get hit by a truck leaving the office tonight, and SS could look awfully good.

Sam wrote:
Who did your friend make those mattresses for and who were the mattresses sold to?
Care to say the mattresses are sold by a large company/corporation? .

I don't know who they were for although I am tempted to say that I'll bet they were used in the prison's themselves. That was a fellow by the name of Barrow that I knew when I was in college, and he worked for us. Very nice guy. He had committed a string of bank robberies and got 10 years for it. And, yes, he was a distant relative of Clyde Barrow.

Sam wrote: ONE MORE TIME>>>YOU HAVE NOT MENTIONED MEXICO'S STANCE ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION OR THE WAY THEY TREAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ... GEE I wonder why...... Maybe if America treated all Illegals the Way Mexico treats theirs..... you MIGHT have a point, on how the Illegals are treated here.

LOL! Well ... that subject hasn't come up for several days and I just sorta ignored it!

I hear the same stories that you hear and I have little way of confirming or denying those tales because I haven't traveled in Southern Mexico nor do I have any strong connections in Chiapas or the nearby states where the "Guats" (Belizian/British term) are crossing.

I do know that the Mexican Constitution forbids foreigners from being involved in politics down there. Remember, they were conquered by the French (do your own jokes there) as well as the Spanish. So they understandably have a lot of resentment with foreign meddling in their politics. We, on the other hand, don't have those provisions in our Constitution. Double standard? Maybe, but I am pragmatic and that's the way it is. So as someone told me today, write your Congressman

I guess that if you are implying that Mexico treats their illegal immigrants in a cruel manner I would, first of all, question that a bit (double standards again -- gringos on good terms get told to get their paperwork right but I am sure that working class Guats are booted out ASAP). Secondly, is cruelty really something that you want the USA to adopt as a standard? I don't.

Anyhow, Sam, I guess that you need to be more specific here because I am honestly not 100% sure what you are gettin' at.

Moonie wrote:If I had all the answers...I'd own that island in the South Pacific..

Queen of Somewhere Hot??????