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Dezdmona wrote:

RinglingRingling wrote:

Dezdmona wrote:And how dare we hold them accountable for having employess who are impared on the job, then claim it's an invasion of privacy when they want ensure their employees are drug free by testing them.

in this case, there was probable cause for testing.

An ounce of prevention...

then we go to the "universal testing" model rather than random. But certainly after the accident, the need to find out if the captain was stupid, lost, or drunk was paramount.

My stepdad worked for Arco and he said there is no way the captain was lost, same route, all the time. Maybe tired or drunk....

surfpirate wrote:My disgust with the Exxon Corporation began with their foot dragging and slow initial response to the disaster (very "FEMA Katrina like"). They had to be forced by public opinion and media reports into taking more accountibility and undertaking faster cleanup actions.

With corporate shareholders to deal with, I expect and even somewhat understand the later and apparently still ongoing legal manuevers. It was that initial lack of action and accountibility which prompted me to begin boycotting Exxon which I still do today.

~~~~~ surfpirate

I wonder how many other outraged citizens still do not purchase Exxon fuels? Believe it or not, I haven't purchased an Exxon product since the crash and quit purchasing Mobil fuels when exxon/mobil did their merger. I too was not a fan of their actions.

Skibo wrote:

surfpirate wrote:My disgust with the Exxon Corporation began with their foot dragging and slow initial response to the disaster (very "FEMA Katrina like"). They had to be forced by public opinion and media reports into taking more accountibility and undertaking faster cleanup actions.

With corporate shareholders to deal with, I expect and even somewhat understand the later and apparently still ongoing legal manuevers. It was that initial lack of action and accountibility which prompted me to begin boycotting Exxon which I still do today.

~~~~~ surfpirate

I wonder how many other outraged citizens still do not purchase Exxon fuels? Believe it or not, I haven't purchased an Exxon product since the crash and quit purchasing Mobil fuels when exxon/mobil did their merger. I too was not a fan of their actions.

Raises hand.

Dezdmona wrote:

Skibo wrote:

surfpirate wrote:My disgust with the Exxon Corporation began with their foot dragging and slow initial response to the disaster (very "FEMA Katrina like"). They had to be forced by public opinion and media reports into taking more accountibility and undertaking faster cleanup actions.

With corporate shareholders to deal with, I expect and even somewhat understand the later and apparently still ongoing legal manuevers. It was that initial lack of action and accountibility which prompted me to begin boycotting Exxon which I still do today.

~~~~~ surfpirate

I wonder how many other outraged citizens still do not purchase Exxon fuels? Believe it or not, I haven't purchased an Exxon product since the crash and quit purchasing Mobil fuels when exxon/mobil did their merger. I too was not a fan of their actions.

Raises hand.

me, I won't buy Exxon or Mobil!

Yeah, I remembered when it happened. I had just gotten back from Spain & Portugal, and when I went to pick my car up at the airport, the price of gas had risen from $1.15 to $1.35 per gallon.

BASTARDS!

Wino you know wrote:Yeah, I remembered when it happened. I had just gotten back from Spain & Portugal, and when I went to pick my car up at the airport, the price of gas had risen from $1.15 to $1.35 per gallon.

BASTARDS!

Now see, you've hit the nail on the head... if there's a big punitive award, it ain't EXXON that's really going to pay.

IT'S US..... AGAIN!

Big companies pass expenses right on to the consumers as much as possible.

Same thing happens when you raise corporate taxes... but I digress....

krusin1 wrote: Now see, you've hit the nail on the head... if there's a big punitive award, it ain't EXXON that's really going to pay.

IT'S US..... AGAIN!

Big companies pass expenses right on to the consumers as much as possible.

Same thing happens when you raise corporate taxes... but I digress....

Someone gets it.

krusin1 wrote:

Wino you know wrote:Yeah, I remembered when it happened. I had just gotten back from Spain & Portugal, and when I went to pick my car up at the airport, the price of gas had risen from $1.15 to $1.35 per gallon.

BASTARDS!

Now see, you've hit the nail on the head... if there's a big punitive award, it ain't EXXON that's really going to pay.

IT'S US..... AGAIN!

Big companies pass expenses right on to the consumers as much as possible.

Same thing happens when you raise corporate taxes... but I digress....

I KNOW!
Can you imagine my furor at having to pay $18.00 to fill up that S.U.V. I was driving at the time?

(But to show my compassionate side, I did send $10.00 to the defense fund of the Captain of the Exxon Valdez).

krusin1 wrote:Same thing happens when you raise corporate taxes... but I digress....

No, that's a fun conversation.
Aim: Raise Corporate Taxes to increase corporate tax revenue.

Effect:
1) Corporations pass along increased price of doing business to consumer.
2) Some consumers decide that they do not need, or need as much of, what corporation produces, so they buy less.
3) Corporation's revenues & profits go down as a result.
4) Corporation has less taxable income.
5) Government receives less corporate tax revenues than before as they are based upon sales and/or profit.

This is how I remember the Exxon Valdez:
I remember in 1990 my husband was stationed at the National Training Center in the Mojave Desert. He only had a few days off a month. Needless to say there wasn't much to do for the family in Ft. Irwin either and I was one really unhappy Army wife, so we would leave post when we could. My husband promised San Deigo was beautiful and made reservations at a Navy "Inn" (not on Coronado) for two nights. Well we got there and it was literally in the "bay dock" area. I figured well I would see the water from our room. We get in the room, open the curtains and the Exxon Valdez was looming in dry dock about 50 yards away!!!! They had blacked out the name on the side but you could still read it. My poor husband about died!!! Yep, we hit all the hot spots in 23 years in the Army.

The next time down we stayed downtown in the Marriott.

Skibo wrote:

Tequila Revenge wrote:

Skibo wrote:I am opposed to punitive damages in any case. They are nothing more than a grab for cash. They paid for the cleanup, they paid the fines associated with the crash, they paid damages to the state and locals that were affected. Enough is enough.

I think you may feel differently if you or your family was directly affected. Exxon did a p*** poor job cleaning up their mess. I know they are counting on people forgetting how things unfolded.

Erm...no I wouldn't. If my family had been directly affected, they would have received payment for actual damages. That is all they or I would have expected. If you ever hit me with your vehicle, I also would only expect you to cover my actual damages, I would not beat you down for pain and suffering so if you ever feel the need to crash a car, hit me, you may save some money.

Do you have kids?

docandjeanie wrote:

RinglingRingling wrote:

Tequila Revenge wrote:

Skibo wrote:I am opposed to punitive damages in any case. They are nothing more than a grab for cash. They paid for the cleanup, they paid the fines associated with the crash, they paid damages to the state and locals that were affected. Enough is enough.

I think you may feel differently if you or your family was directly affected. Exxon did a p*** poor job cleaning up their mess. I know they are counting on people forgetting how things unfolded.

and dying..

It is ridiculous, with all of the profits that they have had in the recent years, they should pay for their mistake, wasn't the captain drunk or something like that?

Just out of curiosity, what does their recent record profits have to do with this?

buffettbride wrote:

green1 wrote:

buffettbride wrote:

RinglingRingling wrote:
accountability, leveling the playing field using the courts, what a concept.

but business, like life, is not fair.

i sure don't want my kids' academic, athletic, or artistic playing field leveled. i want them to strive to achieve to be the best they can be. i want someone to keep score at their soccer games. i want them to be rewarded and recognized for the "A" grades they get for working so hard. likewise, i want them to know what it's like to lose or fail or not get something so they know how to pick themselves up and keep working hard.

businesses and individuals as part of those business should absolutely be accountable to the law, but they should not be punished for being successful.

You said it better than I ever could.

and i'm not even a republican.

... but there is still hope for you.

buffettbride wrote:

RinglingRingling wrote:
accountability, leveling the playing field using the courts, what a concept.

but business, like life, is not fair.

i sure don't want my kids' academic, athletic, or artistic playing field leveled. i want them to strive to achieve to be the best they can be. i want someone to keep score at their soccer games. i want them to be rewarded and recognized for the "A" grades they get for working so hard. likewise, i want them to know what it's like to lose or fail or not get something so they know how to pick themselves up and keep working hard.

businesses and individuals as part of those business should absolutely be accountable to the law, but they should not be punished for being successful.

I don't think we're talking about Exxon's academic, athletic or artistic accomplishments here. The Exxon Valdez situation is a case of negligence and damages assessed against the parties responsible.

I believe the 'level playing field' comment was directed at how large corporations have a lot more access and influence over your elected representatives (from local judges all the way up to the President) than you do, and because of this access and influence are able to avoid responsibility for their actions in ways that you as an individual might find difficult. Corporations enjoy power and influence in the world (money) spite of the fact that, while corporations may employ people, corporations are not people themselves.

Corporations are legal business entities which exist almost exclusively to maximize economic benefits for their shareholders. Whether this pursuit does good or ill in the larger community is always an open and debatable question, and there are numerous familiar examples of both kinds of impact.

While your comments make sense when it comes to raising kids, they don't seem to apply to corporations IMHO.

However, supposing that you do wish to pursue the analogy of kids and corporations, consider this: do you not, in fact, implement punitive measures against your kids each and every time they misbehave? Would you allow them to run roughshod over the neighbors' flower beds and not punish them for such anti-social behavior? If you found your kids stealing from their friends (or strangers in the community) would you let it pass or would you discipline them?

I don't think corporations should get a free pass on anti-social behavior.

Skibo wrote:

krusin1 wrote: Now see, you've hit the nail on the head... if there's a big punitive award, it ain't EXXON that's really going to pay.

IT'S US..... AGAIN!

Big companies pass expenses right on to the consumers as much as possible.

Same thing happens when you raise corporate taxes... but I digress....

Someone gets it.

yep.

Join the other 30% of America who thinks everything is going just skippy right now.
If you told me you were a corporate CEO or a hedge fund manager, I'd say "power to ya'! Grab it while you got it..."
but, to be one America's middle class defending record corporate profit, all while OUR cost of living, our healthcare,
our fuel prices and food prices keep on going right up

...just smacks of Kool-Aid overdose.

green1 wrote:

buffettbride wrote:

RinglingRingling wrote:
accountability, leveling the playing field using the courts, what a concept.

but business, like life, is not fair.

i sure don't want my kids' academic, athletic, or artistic playing field leveled. i want them to strive to achieve to be the best they can be. i want someone to keep score at their soccer games. i want them to be rewarded and recognized for the "A" grades they get for working so hard. likewise, i want them to know what it's like to lose or fail or not get something so they know how to pick themselves up and keep working hard.

businesses and individuals as part of those business should absolutely be accountable to the law, but they should not be punished for being successful.

It isn't being punished for being successful. It is being punished for incredible negligence, and the original judgement was reduced because they pled poverty. Times have changed, and given their willingness to drag it out so they hopefully outwait the plaintiffs, their economic circumstances turned and thus the "we can't pay because that would bankrupt us" flies in the face of reported record profits.

Level playing fields are not a dirty concept. Equal access and opportunity for all participants is what this country was founded on. That you misinterpret that, not my problem.

You said it better than I ever could.

a lot of people can express themselves better and more eloquently than you. Sadly, this is an example of personal achievement even with an equal opportunity and access to education....

Lightning Bolt wrote:
Join the other 30% of America who thinks everything is going just skippy right now.
If you told me you were a corporate CEO or a hedge fund manager, I'd say "power to ya'! Grab it while you got it..."
but, to be one America's middle class defending record corporate profit, all while OUR cost of living, our healthcare,
our fuel prices and food prices keep on going right up

...just smacks of Kool-Aid overdose.

Do you really believe it is only 30%? I find it very hard to believe that the economy is really that bad. Unemployment rate was 4.6% in July. That doesn't sound too bad to me. Inflation is running at 2.4% for the past 12 months. Income is up 3.1% over the same period. Hmmm income up more than inflation. That is a good thing. Anyone that thinks this economy is bad just can't be pleased.

Corporate profit is a good thing. I rejoice when the corporation I work for is profitable, not only because they give me 1000 shares of stock every June, but because when my company makes money they reward the employees with raises and bonuses. We don't worry about becoming victims of cost cutting. I've been through unprofitable times. People lose jobs raises are lower or non-existant and that stock isn't worth as much. I am also thrilled that the stock market is up 18% over the past 12 months. My 401k retirement account looks a lot better now than it did at this time last year. I look forward to my retirement in 20some years when I am ready. I do not plan to rely on Social Security, relying on the govt for anything is planning on failure.

If the economy was really so bad, I think the Democratic candidates would be making a lot more noise about it rather than trying to appeal to the tree huggers and asking americans to give up their SUV's.

Skibo wrote:If the economy was really so bad, I think the Democratic candidates would be making a lot more noise about it rather than trying to appeal to the tree huggers and asking americans to give up their SUV's.