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jonesbeach10 wrote:Interesting topic. 7 pages into what can be considered a political issue, and it hasn't turned nasty yet (knock on wood).

I think we're mostly at the consensus that something needs to be done, whether it be something as simple as eliminating drug ads to all-out UHS.

And just for the record, the communism that Marx saw when he wrote his Manifesto in the mid-1800s (1848?) was definitely not the same communism that developed under Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of the other communist leaders of the 20th century. 20th century communist leaders ruled their country in an authoritarian dictatorship under the disguise of communism because in a dictatorship, the government tends to own a lot of things. My knowledge of 19th century European History might be a little fuzzy, but I don't think Karl Marx ever envisioned communism becoming another form of authoritarianism.

jonesbeach10 wrote:Interesting topic. 7 pages into what can be considered a political issue, and it hasn't turned nasty yet (knock on wood).

I think we're mostly at the consensus that something needs to be done, whether it be something as simple as eliminating drug ads to all-out UHS.

And just for the record, the communism that Marx saw when he wrote his Manifesto in the mid-1800s (1848?) was definitely not the same communism that developed under Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of the other communist leaders of the 20th century. 20th century communist leaders ruled their country in an authoritarian dictatorship under the disguise of communism because in a dictatorship, the government tends to own a lot of things. My knowledge of 19th century European History might be a little fuzzy, but I don't think Karl Marx ever envisioned communism becoming another form of authoritarianism.

krusin1 wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:Interesting topic. 7 pages into what can be considered a political issue, and it hasn't turned nasty yet (knock on wood).

I think we're mostly at the consensus that something needs to be done, whether it be something as simple as eliminating drug ads to all-out UHS.

And just for the record, the communism that Marx saw when he wrote his Manifesto in the mid-1800s (1848?) was definitely not the same communism that developed under Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of the other communist leaders of the 20th century. 20th century communist leaders ruled their country in an authoritarian dictatorship under the disguise of communism because in a dictatorship, the government tends to own a lot of things. My knowledge of 19th century European History might be a little fuzzy, but I don't think Karl Marx ever envisioned communism becoming another form of authoritarianism.

Maybe not... but if he didn't see it coming, he sure didn't understand much about human nature.

Proof... can you name even one example of communism on a large scale that DIDN'T turn into authoritarianism?

jonesbeach10 wrote:

krusin1 wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:Interesting topic. 7 pages into what can be considered a political issue, and it hasn't turned nasty yet (knock on wood).

I think we're mostly at the consensus that something needs to be done, whether it be something as simple as eliminating drug ads to all-out UHS.

And just for the record, the communism that Marx saw when he wrote his Manifesto in the mid-1800s (1848?) was definitely not the same communism that developed under Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of the other communist leaders of the 20th century. 20th century communist leaders ruled their country in an authoritarian dictatorship under the disguise of communism because in a dictatorship, the government tends to own a lot of things. My knowledge of 19th century European History might be a little fuzzy, but I don't think Karl Marx ever envisioned communism becoming another form of authoritarianism.

Maybe not... but if he didn't see it coming, he sure didn't understand much about human nature.

Proof... can you name even one example of communism on a large scale that DIDN'T turn into authoritarianism?

I totally agree with you. Of course, Marx also thought that it would take decades to successfully create in a slow gradual process, whereas most "communist" countries became communist relatively overnight. I think it's one of those things that looks fantastic on paper, but in reality blows the big one.

Migration Michelle wrote:WOW!!!! Quite a hot topic here! I couldn't even get through all the pages.

One comment (cause I can't stay quiet!)...

Maybe Australia and Canada don't have as many lawyers!?!?

buffettbride wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

buffettbride wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

buffettbride wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:
4. Live healthier . . . hey! If people worked out more, ate better, drank less, didn't smoke like an idiot (yes, I believe all smokers are idiots) then you wouldn't need health care as much . . . I haven't been to the doctor in literally 8 years . . .

It's very expensive to truly "live healthier." Processed foods are cheaper than whole foods like fresh fruits, veggies, and meats. When we stopped buying processed food and only bought fresh stuff, our grocery bill tripled. To feed 4 people, I spend almost what we make for our house payment in food. It's wayyyyy cheaper to buy a big economy bag of spaghetti, cereal, etc. to feed the family than it is to only eat unprocessed stuff. It seriously makes me consider planting a garden so I don't have to buy as much food!

All that crap you see on boxes now like "made with whole grains" it's all crap food. Even bread. It's all bad bad bad bad bad. (And I seriously read the label of every single food I buy). The stuff in our food is crap.

don't know what to tell you . . . I eat alot of seafood . . . drink a ton of water . . . I don't use multi vitamins which are either bad for you or don't do anything benefitial . . . don't smoke . . . don't drink as much as my buffettnews name would lead you to believe . . . eat alot of fruit (apples and banana's are wicked cheap) and stay away from salt and sugar.

haven't been sick in years. just saying . . . perhaps those are the reasons perhaps they aren't.

you are an idol of healthy perfection. we should all bow to your way of life. (btw, do you have any idea the price of seafood in colorado??? )

you kinda sound like a pompous retard tho.

but not a smoker . . . and not going to pay for smokers health bills . . . directly or indirectly anymore than I am already forced to do . . .

bottom . .. Universal Health Care is simply a bad idea . . .

and calling people names is just f'n sexy . . . keep it up. please!

oh i agree it isn't a good idea as well.

if you have private insurance through your employer you DO pay for smokers health bills. the premium you pay through your company is equal among employees---whether they smoke, have cancer, or run marathons.

if i knew if your family had a strong history of cancer, could i have the same right to refuse to pay your insurance/medical bills because the chance of you getting cancer was increased by that much?

the point is, is health care, whether government sponsored or privately sponsored is far more complicated than just "trying to be healthy." not seeing a doctor for how ever many years is not exactly healthy either. in fact, quite to the contrary. having a good relationship with your primary health care provider and having regular checkups is very, very important. should i have to pay for your chemo if you neglected to have annual winkie exams done and showed up at the doctor one day with stage 4 prostate cancer?


of course not.

but then again if that ever happened I would just rub some dirt on it and get on with my life . . . dirt rubbing solves all health issues . . . that and salt water . . . and oysters . . .
i'd rather hand you a pack of camel lights.

drunkpirate66 wrote:

buffettbride wrote: should i have to pay for your chemo if you neglected to have annual winkie exams done and showed up at the doctor one day with stage 4 prostate cancer? i'd rather hand you a pack of camel lights.

of course not.

but then again if that ever happened I would just rub some dirt on it and get on with my life . . . dirt rubbing solves all health issues . . . that and salt water . . . and oysters . . .

Wino you know wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:Interesting topic. 7 pages into what can be considered a political issue, and it hasn't turned nasty yet (knock on wood).

I think we're mostly at the consensus that something needs to be done, whether it be something as simple as eliminating drug ads to all-out UHS.

And just for the record, the communism that Marx saw when he wrote his Manifesto in the mid-1800s (1848?) was definitely not the same communism that developed under Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of the other communist leaders of the 20th century. 20th century communist leaders ruled their country in an authoritarian dictatorship under the disguise of communism because in a dictatorship, the government tends to own a lot of things. My knowledge of 19th century European History might be a little fuzzy, but I don't think Karl Marx ever envisioned communism becoming another form of authoritarianism.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm quite happy living in a represenative republic, thank you.
As I said before, if anyone feels the desire to emigrate to a communist or socialist nation, I'll be more than happy to help them get there.

LIPH wrote:

Migration Michelle wrote:WOW!!!! Quite a hot topic here! I couldn't even get through all the pages.

One comment (cause I can't stay quiet!)...

Maybe Australia and Canada don't have as many lawyers!?!?

Then collectively they must not be as smart, or as good looking, as we are.

krusin1 wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Really good idea (universal health care).

I did like the comment about the only part of government that works well is the military - killing folks and breaking things. It really IS one of the few things this country is good at and willing to spend almost unlimited taxpayers' money on. Nice contribution to civilization.

CAREFUL THERE fb55... you are insulting the brave men and women who provide the very freedom you (ab)use every time you open your misguided mouth.

The U.S. Military has provided freedom and advanced human rights for more people than every other group on earth combined. In just the last century they stopped the Nazis, won the Cold War (peace through strength), saved the nation of Kuwait, and put Saddam's torture and rape chambers out of business.

Contribution to civilization? The U.S. Military has literally SAVED civilization.

You need to back off and stick to talking about things you understand.

mjeischen wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

buffettbride wrote: should i have to pay for your chemo if you neglected to have annual winkie exams done and showed up at the doctor one day with stage 4 prostate cancer? i'd rather hand you a pack of camel lights.

of course not.

but then again if that ever happened I would just rub some dirt on it and get on with my life . . . dirt rubbing solves all health issues . . . that and salt water . . . and oysters . . .

Are you rubbing the saltwater and oysters on your winkie too . . . that borderlines some sort of fetish . . . Who covers that counseling?

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

RinglingRingling wrote:

LIPH wrote:

Migration Michelle wrote:WOW!!!! Quite a hot topic here! I couldn't even get through all the pages.

One comment (cause I can't stay quiet!)...

Maybe Australia and Canada don't have as many lawyers!?!?

Then collectively they must not be as smart, or as good looking, as we are.

one look at Burl Ives, William Shatner, and Michael J. Fox would tell you that...

mjeischen wrote:

12vmanRick wrote: Remember the communist manifesto and the 10 things to make it to a Utopian Society?

. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
I own my house. Well the bank owns it until I buy it all then I own it. Where they hell are we giving this away. People own the property they buy.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Has been most everywhere for some time. People have to pay for "stuff" . . . you didn't think you were entitled to roads, public works, police and fire protection did you?

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
We do get taxed on inheritance as well as 90% of the other things we have in our lives. I'm over it.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Kind of like the Native Americans when your ancestors wanted to live here? By seizing property of Americans are you meaning criminals? I'm not sure I'm following here.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. YOu have a checking and savings with the Federal Reserve Bank becaasue it is your only choice? I have choices here in fact 1 on every corner it seems. What about Mortgages and Credit Cards how is the government raking in on that. Its not their money. Matter of Fact I deduct my interest from my taxes . . . essentially taking from the government what they thought they could have

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. What does wire tapping have to do with state run media outlets!? DId you understand what this meant. THe Patriot Act has no bearing on this at all . . . Your referencing the wire tapping and information gathering by the government to aid in our Jihad on Terror. I believe the most controversial elements of this will be amended in the near future. Otherwise we do not have state run media outlets . . . KAtie Couric and Matt Lauer do not work for the government. Some news outlets are a little off kilter - maybe not "fair and balanced" but not state run.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. In the next 10 years you and I can get a front row seat listen t o some Jimmy and drink some beers while we watch the government take over the industrial landscape.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. We should have an equal obligation to work I wish we had this.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. I'm more concerned about the blurred distinction between church and state


10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. We don't have Free education in fact we're furthest from it. My property taxes are through the roof paying for these schools. . . more taxes . . . The government is mandating school improvement because no one else is holding them accountable . . . no reason to be a nation of mental midgets.

I don't see what you see.

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

flyboy55 wrote:

krusin1 wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Really good idea (universal health care).

I did like the comment about the only part of government that works well is the military - killing folks and breaking things. It really IS one of the few things this country is good at and willing to spend almost unlimited taxpayers' money on. Nice contribution to civilization.

CAREFUL THERE fb55... you are insulting the brave men and women who provide the very freedom you (ab)use every time you open your misguided mouth.

The U.S. Military has provided freedom and advanced human rights for more people than every other group on earth combined. In just the last century they stopped the Nazis, won the Cold War (peace through strength), saved the nation of Kuwait, and put Saddam's torture and rape chambers out of business.

Contribution to civilization? The U.S. Military has literally SAVED civilization.

You need to back off and stick to talking about things you understand.

I had to chuckle when I read your post. Anything that comes within a mile of criticizing this country's foreign policy/ military interventionism gets cast as a knock against men and women serving in uniform. Did you recently have job working for the current administration as a political advisor?

I try not to argue about these things here at BN anymore. However, if you want to argue about it, step outside. If I'm not there in five minutes, start (arguing) without me.

Merry Christmas.

12vmanRick wrote:

mjeischen wrote:

12vmanRick wrote: Remember the communist manifesto and the 10 things to make it to a Utopian Society?

. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
I own my house. Well the bank owns it until I buy it all then I own it. Where they hell are we giving this away. People own the property they buy.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. Has been most everywhere for some time. People have to pay for "stuff" . . . you didn't think you were entitled to roads, public works, police and fire protection did you?

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
We do get taxed on inheritance as well as 90% of the other things we have in our lives. I'm over it.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Kind of like the Native Americans when your ancestors wanted to live here? By seizing property of Americans are you meaning criminals? I'm not sure I'm following here.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. YOu have a checking and savings with the Federal Reserve Bank becaasue it is your only choice? I have choices here in fact 1 on every corner it seems. What about Mortgages and Credit Cards how is the government raking in on that. Its not their money. Matter of Fact I deduct my interest from my taxes . . . essentially taking from the government what they thought they could have

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state. What does wire tapping have to do with state run media outlets!? DId you understand what this meant. THe Patriot Act has no bearing on this at all . . . Your referencing the wire tapping and information gathering by the government to aid in our Jihad on Terror. I believe the most controversial elements of this will be amended in the near future. Otherwise we do not have state run media outlets . . . KAtie Couric and Matt Lauer do not work for the government. Some news outlets are a little off kilter - maybe not "fair and balanced" but not state run.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. In the next 10 years you and I can get a front row seat listen t o some Jimmy and drink some beers while we watch the government take over the industrial landscape.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. We should have an equal obligation to work I wish we had this.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. I'm more concerned about the blurred distinction between church and state


10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. We don't have Free education in fact we're furthest from it. My property taxes are through the roof paying for these schools. . . more taxes . . . The government is mandating school improvement because no one else is holding them accountable . . . no reason to be a nation of mental midgets.

I don't see what you see.

it's ok not everyone can be that smart LOL.. just kidding. Everyone has their point of view is all. I see us on a road to socialism and straight to hell. It just seems to me the signs are there and both parties are party to that demise. 1 trillion dollar deficit, war we don't need, a president that seemingly has no sense of direction, a recession that borders a depression, etc.

ConchRepublican wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

You don't think that Universal Healthcare would give the government massive control over just about everything in your life? Think about the services which they could withhold if they don't like what you put in your body. If you don't do what they say, they can control whether or not you live or die. Literally.

mjeischen wrote:

ConchRepublican wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

You don't think that Universal Healthcare would give the government massive control over just about everything in your life? Think about the services which they could withhold if they don't like what you put in your body. If you don't do what they say, they can control whether or not you live or die. Literally.

Thats an extreme point of view to take don't you think . . .