BuffettNews.com

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

Yuh, I feel dirty when i agree with flyboy but this was very interesting until the communism tangent hit.

ConchRepublican wrote:

mjeischen wrote:

ConchRepublican wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

You don't think that Universal Healthcare would give the government massive control over just about everything in your life? Think about the services which they could withhold if they don't like what you put in your body. If you don't do what they say, they can control whether or not you live or die. Literally.

Thats an extreme point of view to take don't you think . . .

Not really. Look at how people view smokers. If there's UHC, don't you think smokers would be put to the back of the line? Once it becomes "managed" then bean counters will control all that, not doctors.

I see it now -

At your height weight and age, have you had your fruit for the week? No? tsk, tsk. No wonder you are sick.

But I broke my leg

Sit down and we'll get to you when we can.

So . . . what would you do? How do you fix the problem? Saying something won't work is one thing, doing something about it is another. If my car breaks I fix it - i don't throw my hands in the air and walk away.

What do you say of the countries that are doing it. We've had a few BN folks check in and say they love it - are they commies? I feel they explained it very well and seemed quite pleased.

Just because one evolves off a "socialist" idea doesn't make it communist. If it did we would have more missles pointed at Canada and Europe.

Skibo wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

Yuh, I feel dirty when i agree with flyboy

Skibo wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

Yuh, I feel dirty when i agree with flyboy but this was very interesting until the communism tangent hit.

HA! It's an extreme but I knew it would be mentioned eventually.

mjeischen wrote:

ConchRepublican wrote:

mjeischen wrote:

ConchRepublican wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

You don't think that Universal Healthcare would give the government massive control over just about everything in your life? Think about the services which they could withhold if they don't like what you put in your body. If you don't do what they say, they can control whether or not you live or die. Literally.

Thats an extreme point of view to take don't you think . . .

Not really. Look at how people view smokers. If there's UHC, don't you think smokers would be put to the back of the line? Once it becomes "managed" then bean counters will control all that, not doctors.

I see it now -

At your height weight and age, have you had your fruit for the week? No? tsk, tsk. No wonder you are sick.

But I broke my leg

Sit down and we'll get to you when we can.

So . . . what would you do? How do you fix the problem? Saying something won't work is one thing, doing something about it is another. If my car breaks I fix it - i don't throw my hands in the air and walk away.

What do you say of the countries that are doing it. We've had a few BN folks check in and say they love it - are they commies? I feel they explained it very well and seemed quite pleased.

Just because one evolves off a "socialist" idea doesn't make it communist. If it did we would have more missles pointed at Canada and Europe.

If I had an answer, I wouldn't be a print production/salesperson!!!

Really, there are a lot smarter people than me out there who I look for to find the solution. My biggest issue is I think it's a sociatal (sp?) problem. A lack of personal responsibility which has ripple effects to every corner of society.

I think one place it should start is with reforming the courts. With less awards for malpractice, I think overall costs will start to go down.

I also think people should be given more choices. Instead of a business healthcare plan, perhaps people should have a fund, tax-free like a 401k, which they can use to choose their own plan. This way their plan will follow them throughout their life. Thing is, for this to work, people need to be responsible for it and accept the personal loss, most likely monetarily, if they judge incorrectly. In my experience, most people would prefer to have others take care of this for them.

I'm guilty as well, I don't call my wife the CFO for nothing!

It's not much, but I think this basic idea is what's important. Give people the freedom to chose and the competition for services will make the system better. Not overnight, but nothing happens quickly. Which is another problem, instant gratification . . .but that's another story. Or is it?????

mjeischen wrote:

ConchRepublican wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

You don't think that Universal Healthcare would give the government massive control over just about everything in your life? Think about the services which they could withhold if they don't like what you put in your body. If you don't do what they say, they can control whether or not you live or die. Literally.

Thats an extreme point of view to take don't you think . . .

not at all, in fact if you want to accurately predict future behavior, just look at historical behavior. There are already folks on this very thread ready to start withholding healthcare to others because of certain behaviors. Just be careful because sooner or later, they'll get to a behavior that seems acceptable to you but political winds have blown another direction and now you too are a victim of the food police or the helmet police or you don't get your blood pressure checked often enough or you eat too much pizza or...

Historically, politicians figure out ways to take control of our lives and hold back rights, benefits, privileges etc. and then "give" them back to the people who exhibit certain behaviors that those particular politicians endorse (i.e., tax loopholes, tax breaks for certain "green" purchases, the whole FICA system, government pork and programs of all kinds, etc.) They can't help it, they're politicians and just like water, they move in directions that give them more power over more money and more decisions over us.

If the government controlled our healthcare and had all of our medical records, please please trust me, they'll figure out how to abuse that power and we will have no recourse because it's THE GOVERNMENT. Think about it, we have recourse if mistakes are made in private / free market healthcare - but if it became another government run program and mistakes are made, tough $@#%*! you can't sue the government

The other absolute certainty is that once you invite the government in and turn over YOUR healthcare to it, you'll NEVER be able to undo the mistake...NEVER

PLEASE FOLKS, BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR

The only relationship between universal health care and communism is they both seem like a good idea, but don't really work out in the end.

Sheesh you freaks.

buffettbride wrote:The only relationship between universal health care and communism is they both seem like a good idea, but don't really work out in the end.

Sheesh you freaks.

thank god Rocky Balboa beat the big Russian which helped unify the relationship between the United States and communist Russia . . . I bet on Drago. I lost.

buffettbride wrote:The only relationship between universal health care and communism is they both seem like a good idea, but don't really work out in the end.

Sheesh you freaks.

Leave it to BB to sum up 9 pages of chatter in two sentences.

Luv that gal!

In summary thus far we have people that feel this is too much government and a few that think this is a possible solution.

If the government didn't administer it can the government correct the current situation? Is it all about malpractice lawsuits?

ConchRepublican wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

You don't think that Universal Healthcare would give the government massive control over just about everything in your life? Think about the services which they could withhold if they don't like what you put in your body. If you don't do what they say, they can control whether or not you live or die. Literally.

You've obviously never dealt with an HMO.

mjeischen wrote:

flyboy55 wrote:Huh?

Universal health care = communism???

Very funny. These discussions about access to health care usually go nowhere because folks go off on a tangent about communism, dictatorship, etc.

Equals communism!? no. It is bred from socialist ideas which is associated with communism. It's an easy connection which allows one to make a blanket observation about an idea. If its socialist, it's communism. If its communism, it's unamerican. Many seem to be trending in the direction that as we make socialist-type decisions for ourselves that finding ourselves in the middle of communist europe is right around the corner.

Flyboy - it is a discussion of an idea and other ideas and thoughts will filter in. Simply coming in to criticize the thoughts and ideas of others does not help the discussion go anywhere either. Perhaps you have something to add that does not attack ones views of our military or their thoughts and beliefs on communism?

I didn't attack anyone's views of the military.

Universal health care? Great idea. Most objections to a universal health care plan revolve around some variation of the argument that the government would screw it up and then micromanage your life.

An example of a system of universal health care that works (and it very close to home) is the system in Canada.

Erroneously called 'socialized medicine', what Canada really has is very similar to what we have except for the fact that it is 'single payer' with the government being the single payer.

The doctors all work for themselves and bill the single insurer, it the government, for services rendered, as opposed to billing 150 different HMO's.

Going further towards a 'socialized medicine' model would be the UK. The doctors are employees of the government medical system, which has its pros and cons.

France and many other European countries have other systems, most of which work well for their citizens, and much better than ours.

Ours is without a doubt the worst in terms of per capita expenditure compared with health outcomes (that's for folks WITH health coverage), not to mention all those who have no coverage and hence no treatment.

mjeischen wrote: can the government correct the current situation?

given the track record? that's like putting the U.N. in charge of ridding New York City of corruption...

I think there is a huge disconnect between people in this country who actually think the government can solve more problems than it creates every time it tries to butt into something it should not be involved in.

I don't think the government is capable of correcting the situation. I don't even think the "government" is really capable of identifying the real problem. Remember, these are the same bozos who feel obligated to strip search your 92 year old grandma at the airport just to make sure no one feels "profiled." And the same type of thinking that brings us idiotic zero-tolerance laws that charge little girls with a felony for using a knife to cut a piece of steak at school. I DO NOT have faith in government decisions and I don't know why anyone would. I don't think any administration could present a solution to this issue that wouldn't anger more people than it helps. If government has a role in healthcare, it is to set standards and then make sure those standards are maintained for the protection of citizens - much like the FDA's mission. But then to get out of the way.

But to turn EVERYONE's healthcare upside down and create a new regime of government workers who control that much of our lives and our nation's economy simply to provide "free" healthcare to the 10% of our citizens who can't provide healthcare for themselves and / or families just seems like the mother of all political knee-jerk reactions. There are better and cheaper ways of taking care of this issue which wouldn't require the vast majority of us (who can make the right choices so that we are able to provide healthcare for ourselves and families) to inevitably pay much more for much less...a crummy government healthcare plan that dictates what you can and can't do and when you can and can't do it.

I believe that every day that goes by while congress is NOT in session is a day politicians are not trying to screw something else up.

I haven't been reading ANY of this discussion, but recently a friend in Canada had to spend 8 hours waiting to see a Doctor for her child's bronchitis. She said that was an average wait.

I don't know about any of you, but are you able to take that much time off work every time you or one of your kids needs to see a Doctor?

I also remember reading an article about Physicians in England getting disillusioned because they were getting paid less than some service persons, like plumbers etc... after going through all the education they had to go through, and leaving the profession in that Country for better paying jobs elsewhere, so the quality of care that is being received in that nation is declining as the most competent physicans are leaving.

Frankly, I want competent care & not having to sit in a Dr's office all day with a sick kid.

Dezdmona wrote:I haven't been reading ANY of this discussion, but recently a friend in Canada had to spend 8 hours waiting to see a Doctor for her child's bronchitis. She said that was an average wait.

I don't know about any of you, but are you able to take that much time off work every time you or one of your kids needs to see a Doctor?

I also remember reading an article about Physicians in England getting disillusioned because they were getting paid less than some service persons, like plumbers etc... after going through all the education they had to go through, and leaving the profession in that Country for better paying jobs elsewhere, so the quality of care that is being received in that nation is declining as the most competent physicans are leaving.

Frankly, I want competent care & not having to sit in a Dr's office all day with a sick kid.

picture something in between the public health clinic and your typical DMV office. Our current system is far from perfect but any system that allows some choice as to where you go and who you see is going to automatically produce better choices for consumers. It's called "open competition" and it is a good thing.

On the other hand, imagine a world 10 or 20 years from now where the concept of "let's get a second opinion" is all but forgotten and a virtual impossibility - unless you leave the country like many Canadians and Brits do now , if they have the means to do so.

mjeischen wrote: If the government didn't administer it can the government correct the current situation? Is it all about malpractice lawsuits?

The government cannot fix the problem IMO. The government really hasn't "fixed" much in the history of the U.S.

It isn't just about malpractice, but that is part of the problem. Fact is, a doctor's services are very expensive. A doctor spends over $100,000 to get his MD, he then spends thousands more on equipment and staff. In addition to paying off the debts of his education and equipment, he expects a fair salary for his efforts. Pile on all the regulations he must follow and the added expense of FDA regs (I'm not knockin FDA) just saying they increase costs, and you have a very expensive office visit. Medical care will never be free. I am happy with the current system. Sure there are haves and have nots, but even under our current system, no one is denied healthcare because of their insured status.

Dezdmona wrote:I haven't been reading ANY of this discussion, but recently a friend in Canada had to spend 8 hours waiting to see a Doctor for her child's bronchitis. She said that was an average wait.

I don't know about any of you, but are you able to take that much time off work every time you or one of your kids needs to see a Doctor?

I also remember reading an article about Physicians in England getting disillusioned because they were getting paid less than some service persons, like plumbers etc... after going through all the education they had to go through, and leaving the profession in that Country for better paying jobs elsewhere, so the quality of care that is being received in that nation is declining as the most competent physicans are leaving.

Frankly, I want competent care & not having to sit in a Dr's office all day with a sick kid.

we have good friends in Canada, they hate their socialized medicine there.

buffettbride wrote:The only relationship between universal health care and communism is they both seem like a good idea, but don't really work out in the end.

Sheesh you freaks.

you rock babe

Skibo wrote:

mjeischen wrote: If the government didn't administer it can the government correct the current situation? Is it all about malpractice lawsuits?

The government cannot fix the problem IMO. The government really hasn't "fixed" much in the history of the U.S.

.

you are SO right, they can't even fix themselves.

mjeischen wrote:If the government didn't administer it can the government correct the current situation? Is it all about malpractice lawsuits?

They can't, the only thing that the government does well is defend our country, and that is because they usually leave it to the professional soldiers. I say usually because there have been instances when the government decides that it knows better than soldiers how to wage war. The most recent example of government . . . interference was Vietnam.