Debate #1

[flipflopgirl]

McCain fought hard, tried to use debate gamesmanship by ignoring his opponent, but rarely scored.
Obama could have fought harder, and he could've laid waste to most any McCain point had he chose to argue with more passion.

Overall, I'd have to call this one a draw...

it was just ugly...seriously i think the US needs a YOUNG, HOT president!!! I am going to vote for John Patti!!!!

Oh yeah, just hire McCain... then trip him walking down the aisle.
voilå.. we got Sarah Palin!

this isn't the young hottie you had in mind, right?

NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!! She scares the living ESTROGEN right out of me!!!!

[sonofabeach]

Big mistake putting this on a Friday night.
Hell, I already know who I'm voting for anyway so why waste my time?
I went out and got drunk until 1:30 in the morning. I've got my priorities right

[drunkpirate66]

Regardless of who said what. Regardless of which direction they were looking. They was one huge mistake made last night and it was repeated over ten times in a very short debate. Barrack Obama said the words "John McCain is right . . . ." over and over again. Never, never NEVER do that. My high school political science teacher knew that much! It doesn't matter if Barrack Obama said "John McCain is right, BUT . . . ." The fact is the words "John McCain is right . . . " were heard atleat 10 times that I counted by millions of people who may or may not be undecided voters.

On McCain's end, the phrase "Barrack Obama clearly doesn't understand" or "Barrack Obama obviously does not have the experience" were repeated over and over . . .

[ScarletB]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

[ScarletB]

McCain fought hard, tried to use debate gamesmanship by ignoring his opponent, but rarely scored.
Obama could have fought harder, and he could've laid waste to most any McCain point had he chose to argue with more passion.

Overall, I'd have to call this one a draw...

it was just ugly...seriously i think the US needs a YOUNG, HOT president!!! I am going to vote for John Patti!!!!

Oh yeah, just hire McCain... then trip him walking down the aisle.
voilå.. we got Sarah Palin!

this isn't the young hottie you had in mind, right?

NOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!! She scares the living ESTROGEN right out of me!!!!

DITTO Christine. What middle age hasn't removed she's taken care of!

[drunkpirate66]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

Not trying to be funny but if Obama's multi - million dollar campaign was all about "change" and comparing McCain to a twice elected president which he must feel is good strategy then why at the most crucial moment during this whole election process when more people were watching then at anyother point did Obama choose to AGREE with McCain on almost every issue and repeating the phrase "McCain is right" after almost every time McCain spoke?

[ScarletB]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

Not trying to be funny but if Obama's multi - million dollar campaign was all about "change" and comparing McCain to a twice elected president which he must feel is good strategy then why at the most crucial moment during this whole election process when more people were watching then at anyother point did Obama choose to AGREE with McCain on almost every issue and repeating the phrase "McCain is right" after almost every time McCain spoke?

Didn't listen to it so I can't coment. I have to believe there were "BUTS" after those as you sort of indicated I mean everyone agrees what the problems are, it's the solutions where it differs. However, as I said, I didn't watch it as my mind is made up ESPECIALLY since the entrance of Ms Palin (insert "shudder" here)

[Moonie]

Christine - did you see her interview with Katie? Is it just me - I am trying not to be biased - but it really was horrible - and I was actually frightened of the thought she could be our VP who has to have conversations with foreign leaders. I have enough issues with John McCain - but even more with her.

I watched it. I was painful. Her response about I'll go find ya some, etc. was nothing less than stupid and confirms her lack of experience.

What a ridiculous choice of VP candidate. The Republican Party should be embarrassed.

Her stance on shooting wolves from low flying airplanes, did it for me.

Does she think because she's cute she can still answer with stupid replies and no one notice?

I was actually undecided until up to a few weeks ago. I'm going with NEO, sit this one out.

[drunkpirate66]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

Not trying to be funny but if Obama's multi - million dollar campaign was all about "change" and comparing McCain to a twice elected president which he must feel is good strategy then why at the most crucial moment during this whole election process when more people were watching then at anyother point did Obama choose to AGREE with McCain on almost every issue and repeating the phrase "McCain is right" after almost every time McCain spoke?

Didn't listen to it so I can't coment. I have to believe there were "BUTS" after those as you sort of indicated I mean everyone agrees what the problems are, it's the solutions where it differs. However, as I said, I didn't watch it as my mind is made up ESPECIALLY since the entrance of Ms Palin (insert "shudder" here)

There were "buts". BUT . . . you never agree with your opponent during a debate - well, maybe once to show openmindedness. Obama said the words "John McCain is right" over and over and over and over and over again. You know who you are voting for and I think we could do alot worse then Obama. I know I am voting for McCain and I am honestly not all that motivated by him. However, there are supposedly millions of voters who have not decided and they heard "John McCain is right" from a guy preaching change last night. I feel that was a huge mistake on McCain. CNN (usually liberal minded CNN) even said it was a massive error and 68% of people feel McCain "won".

[Martonian]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

Not trying to be funny but if Obama's multi - million dollar campaign was all about "change" and comparing McCain to a twice elected president which he must feel is good strategy then why at the most crucial moment during this whole election process when more people were watching then at anyother point did Obama choose to AGREE with McCain on almost every issue and repeating the phrase "McCain is right" after almost every time McCain spoke?

Didn't listen to it so I can't coment. I have to believe there were "BUTS" after those as you sort of indicated I mean everyone agrees what the problems are, it's the solutions where it differs. However, as I said, I didn't watch it as my mind is made up ESPECIALLY since the entrance of Ms Palin (insert "shudder" here)

There were "buts". BUT . . . you never agree with your opponent during a debate - well, maybe once to show openmindedness. Obama said the words "John McCain is right" over and over and over and over and over again. You know who you are voting for and I think we could do alot worse then Obama. I know I am voting for McCain and I am honestly not all that motivated by him. However, there are supposedly millions of voters who have not decided and they heard "John McCain is right" from a guy preaching change last night. I feel that was a huge mistake on McCain. CNN (usually liberal minded CNN) even said it was a massive error and 68% of people feel McCain "won".

I agree that Obama agreed too much with McCain last night. I think you'll see SNL lampoon that tonight.

I'm not sure where that 68% number came from. The CNN/Opinion Research Poll showed Obama won 51-38. I actually think it was a draw, but I think that Obama crossed the commander in chief threshold for a lot of people.

A lot of the people on the Right said that Obama can only speak if he has a teleprompter... well, he put that to rest. They also liked to criticize Obama for his "ahh", "umms" but he didn't have much of those either.

[drunkpirate66]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

Not trying to be funny but if Obama's multi - million dollar campaign was all about "change" and comparing McCain to a twice elected president which he must feel is good strategy then why at the most crucial moment during this whole election process when more people were watching then at anyother point did Obama choose to AGREE with McCain on almost every issue and repeating the phrase "McCain is right" after almost every time McCain spoke?

Didn't listen to it so I can't coment. I have to believe there were "BUTS" after those as you sort of indicated I mean everyone agrees what the problems are, it's the solutions where it differs. However, as I said, I didn't watch it as my mind is made up ESPECIALLY since the entrance of Ms Palin (insert "shudder" here)

There were "buts". BUT . . . you never agree with your opponent during a debate - well, maybe once to show openmindedness. Obama said the words "John McCain is right" over and over and over and over and over again. You know who you are voting for and I think we could do alot worse then Obama. I know I am voting for McCain and I am honestly not all that motivated by him. However, there are supposedly millions of voters who have not decided and they heard "John McCain is right" from a guy preaching change last night. I feel that was a huge mistake on McCain. CNN (usually liberal minded CNN) even said it was a massive error and 68% of people feel McCain "won".

I agree that Obama agreed too much with McCain last night. I think you'll see SNL lampoon that tonight.

I'm not sure where that 68% number came from. The CNN/Opinion Research Poll showed Obama won 51-38. I actually think it was a draw, but I think that Obama crossed the commander in chief threshold for a lot of people.

A lot of the people on the Right said that Obama can only speak if he has a teleprompter... well, he put that to rest. They also liked to criticize Obama for his "ahh", "umms" but he didn't have much of those either.

Watching CNN this morning and the call in poll was 68% for McCain. Might have changed. Who knows? But I think that McCain picked up way more of the truly undecided last night and Obama certainly helped by calling him "right" . .. IMO.

[BFinnsUp]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

Not trying to be funny but if Obama's multi - million dollar campaign was all about "change" and comparing McCain to a twice elected president which he must feel is good strategy then why at the most crucial moment during this whole election process when more people were watching then at anyother point did Obama choose to AGREE with McCain on almost every issue and repeating the phrase "McCain is right" after almost every time McCain spoke?

Didn't listen to it so I can't coment. I have to believe there were "BUTS" after those as you sort of indicated I mean everyone agrees what the problems are, it's the solutions where it differs. However, as I said, I didn't watch it as my mind is made up ESPECIALLY since the entrance of Ms Palin (insert "shudder" here)

There were "buts". BUT . . . you never agree with your opponent during a debate - well, maybe once to show openmindedness. Obama said the words "John McCain is right" over and over and over and over and over again. You know who you are voting for and I think we could do alot worse then Obama. I know I am voting for McCain and I am honestly not all that motivated by him. However, there are supposedly millions of voters who have not decided and they heard "John McCain is right" from a guy preaching change last night. I feel that was a huge mistake on McCain. CNN (usually liberal minded CNN) even said it was a massive error and 68% of people feel McCain "won".

I agree that Obama agreed too much with McCain last night. I think you'll see SNL lampoon that tonight.

I'm not sure where that 68% number came from. The CNN/Opinion Research Poll showed Obama won 51-38. I actually think it was a draw, but I think that Obama crossed the commander in chief threshold for a lot of people.

A lot of the people on the Right said that Obama can only speak if he has a teleprompter... well, he put that to rest. They also liked to criticize Obama for his "ahh", "umms" but he didn't have much of those either.

I thought that I had seen different numbers earlier, with close to evenly distributed McCain wins, Obama wins, Draw set of numbers. However, the article on CCN right now supports the 51-38 spread.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/27/ ... pstoryview

[BFinnsUp]

I didn't see any reason to raise my blood pressure unecessarily by watching it. Unless John McCain offers to personally deliver $1MM to my front door the day after election day there is no way in hell I'd vote for him anyway. His VP selection just sealed the deal, now I'm actually afraid.

To me it's simple - were the last 8 years anything that bear repeating?
For me the answer is a resounding NO. John McCain agreed with george bush 90% of the time, I agreed with him MAYBE 1% of the time (going to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden) So I'm just keeping the TV off until Nov 5th.

Besides, the pundits afterwards drive me nuts. My father used to say "Oh now THEY'RE going to tell us what we heard!"

Not trying to be funny but if Obama's multi - million dollar campaign was all about "change" and comparing McCain to a twice elected president which he must feel is good strategy then why at the most crucial moment during this whole election process when more people were watching then at anyother point did Obama choose to AGREE with McCain on almost every issue and repeating the phrase "McCain is right" after almost every time McCain spoke?

Didn't listen to it so I can't coment. I have to believe there were "BUTS" after those as you sort of indicated I mean everyone agrees what the problems are, it's the solutions where it differs. However, as I said, I didn't watch it as my mind is made up ESPECIALLY since the entrance of Ms Palin (insert "shudder" here)

There were "buts". BUT . . . you never agree with your opponent during a debate - well, maybe once to show openmindedness. Obama said the words "John McCain is right" over and over and over and over and over again. You know who you are voting for and I think we could do alot worse then Obama. I know I am voting for McCain and I am honestly not all that motivated by him. However, there are supposedly millions of voters who have not decided and they heard "John McCain is right" from a guy preaching change last night. I feel that was a huge mistake on McCain. CNN (usually liberal minded CNN) even said it was a massive error and 68% of people feel McCain "won".

I agree that Obama agreed too much with McCain last night. I think you'll see SNL lampoon that tonight.

I'm not sure where that 68% number came from. The CNN/Opinion Research Poll showed Obama won 51-38. I actually think it was a draw, but I think that Obama crossed the commander in chief threshold for a lot of people.

A lot of the people on the Right said that Obama can only speak if he has a teleprompter... well, he put that to rest. They also liked to criticize Obama for his "ahh", "umms" but he didn't have much of those either.

Watching CNN this morning and the call in poll was 68% for McCain. Might have changed. Who knows? But I think that McCain picked up way more of the truly undecided last night and Obama certainly helped by calling him "right" . .. IMO.

That makes sense, a different set of numbers from the pollsters.

[BFinnsUp]

I miss Tim

God rest his soul and bless his family

I miss Tim Russert and, even though he was a LIBERAL newscaster, I miss Peter Jennings a lot too.
Two stand-up guys who were in a class by themselves.
Tim seemed to have that knack of letting a person actually ENJOY watching the news, and Peter, bless his soul, at the end of every one of his newscasts always left you feeling happy, hopeful, and optimistic.

We all miss Tim. I would have loved to hear his commentary after last night. I think he would have framed this election and this financial mess much better.

[Martonian]

Watching CNN this morning and the call in poll was 68% for McCain. Might have changed. Who knows? But I think that McCain picked up way more of the truly undecided last night and Obama certainly helped by calling him "right" . .. IMO.

Maybe that was an unscientific poll, like on Hannity & Colmes last night you could text in who you thought the winner was and it was 82% to 16% that McCain won.

Here is more from the CNN poll:

Thinking about the following characteristics and qualities, please say whether you think each one better described Barack Obama or John McCain during tonight's debate:

• Was more intelligent: Obama 55%, McCain 30%

• Expressed his views more clearly: Obama 53%, McCain 36%

• Spent more time attacking his opponent: McCain 60%, Obama 23%

• Was more sincere and authentic: Obama 46%, McCain 38%

• Seemed to be the stronger leader: Obama 49%, McCain 43%

• Was more likeable: Obama 61%, McCain 26%

• Was more in touch with the needs and problems of people like you: Obama 62%, McCain 32%

And a CBS poll of undecideds found this:

Thirty-nine percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. Twenty-four percent thought John McCain won. Thirty-seven percent saw it as a draw.

Forty-six percent of uncommitted voters said their opinion of Obama got better tonight. Thirty-two percent said their opinion of McCain got better.

Sixty-six percent of uncommitted voters think Obama would make the right decisions about the economy. Forty-two percent think McCain would.

Also, a Fox focus group of undecideds felt Obama won.

Again, I think it was a draw, not a game-changer really. McCain needed to win decisively to arrest his poll slide and he didn't do that.

[BFinnsUp]

Watching CNN this morning and the call in poll was 68% for McCain. Might have changed. Who knows? But I think that McCain picked up way more of the truly undecided last night and Obama certainly helped by calling him "right" . .. IMO.

Maybe that was an unscientific poll, like on Hannity & Colmes last night you could text in who you thought the winner was and it was 82% to 16% that McCain won.

Here is more from the CNN poll:

Thinking about the following characteristics and qualities, please say whether you think each one better described Barack Obama or John McCain during tonight's debate:

• Was more intelligent: Obama 55%, McCain 30%

• Expressed his views more clearly: Obama 53%, McCain 36%

• Spent more time attacking his opponent: McCain 60%, Obama 23%

• Was more sincere and authentic: Obama 46%, McCain 38%

• Seemed to be the stronger leader: Obama 49%, McCain 43%

• Was more likeable: Obama 61%, McCain 26%

• Was more in touch with the needs and problems of people like you: Obama 62%, McCain 32%

And a CBS poll of undecideds found this:

Thirty-nine percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. Twenty-four percent thought John McCain won. Thirty-seven percent saw it as a draw.

Forty-six percent of uncommitted voters said their opinion of Obama got better tonight. Thirty-two percent said their opinion of McCain got better.

Sixty-six percent of uncommitted voters think Obama would make the right decisions about the economy. Forty-two percent think McCain would.

Also, a Fox focus group of undecideds felt Obama won.

Again, I think it was a draw, not a game-changer really. McCain needed to win decisively to arrest his poll slide and he didn't do that.

I must have seen the CBS poll earlier, that looks like the numbers I rmember.

As for Hannity, I used to think he was ok but after the interview with Palin I have lost all respect for him.

[Martonian]

As for Hannity, I used to think he was ok but after the interview with Palin I have lost all respect for him.

He's probably the most partisan person on TV and radio. I watch H&C because I like to get both sides, but yea his interview with Palin was more like an infomercial, as detailed by Jon Stewart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtSbozdgWAw

[Lightning Bolt]

Watching CNN this morning and the call in poll was 68% for McCain. Might have changed. Who knows? But I think that McCain picked up way more of the truly undecided last night and Obama certainly helped by calling him "right" . .. IMO.

Maybe that was an unscientific poll, like on Hannity & Colmes last night you could text in who you thought the winner was and it was 82% to 16% that McCain won.

Here is more from the CNN poll:

Thinking about the following characteristics and qualities, please say whether you think each one better described Barack Obama or John McCain during tonight's debate:

• Was more intelligent: Obama 55%, McCain 30%




• Expressed his views more clearly: Obama 53%, McCain 36%

• Spent more time attacking his opponent: McCain 60%, Obama 23%

• Was more sincere and authentic: Obama 46%, McCain 38%

• Seemed to be the stronger leader: Obama 49%, McCain 43%

• Was more likeable: Obama 61%, McCain 26%

• Was more in touch with the needs and problems of people like you: Obama 62%, McCain 32%

And a CBS poll of undecideds found this:

Thirty-nine percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Barack Obama was the winner. Twenty-four percent thought John McCain won. Thirty-seven percent saw it as a draw.

Forty-six percent of uncommitted voters said their opinion of Obama got better tonight. Thirty-two percent said their opinion of McCain got better.

Sixty-six percent of uncommitted voters think Obama would make the right decisions about the economy. Forty-two percent think McCain would.

Also, a Fox focus group of undecideds felt Obama won.

Again, I think it was a draw, not a game-changer really. McCain needed to win decisively to arrest his poll slide and he didn't do that.

I must have seen the CBS poll earlier, that looks like the numbers I rmember.

As for Hannity, I used to think he was ok but after the interview with Palin I have lost all respect for him.

Only NOW you're coming to this realization about Hannity???
I was certain he gets a weekly paycheck from the GOP... he's such a right-wing fascist honk.

[Lightning Bolt]

Regardless of who said what. Regardless of which direction they were looking. They was one huge mistake made last night and it was repeated over ten times in a very short debate. Barrack Obama said the words "John McCain is right . . . ." over and over again. Never, never NEVER do that. My high school political science teacher knew that much! It doesn't matter if Barrack Obama said "John McCain is right, BUT . . . ." The fact is the words "John McCain is right . . . " were heard atleat 10 times that I counted by millions of people who may or may not be undecided voters.

On McCain's end, the phrase "Barrack Obama clearly doesn't understand" or "Barrack Obama obviously does not have the experience" were repeated over and over . . .

For tooooo long, the administration and GOP has tried to rely on simple slogans and sound bytes.
They make assumption that the voting public is too stupid to actually listen to the debate and the responses.
That this would be the FauxNews talking point... "You're right, John" only shows how little substance was brought by McCain, while Obama filled in those gaping holes with real detail.
I still think that while Obama was more clear and conveyed a better intelligence,
he could've pounded McCain with his own voting record with Georgie W. and I'm sure he'll improve on this point.

[flyboy55]

Regardless of who said what. Regardless of which direction they were looking. They was one huge mistake made last night and it was repeated over ten times in a very short debate. Barrack Obama said the words "John McCain is right . . . ." over and over again. Never, never NEVER do that. My high school political science teacher knew that much! It doesn't matter if Barrack Obama said "John McCain is right, BUT . . . ." The fact is the words "John McCain is right . . . " were heard atleat 10 times that I counted by millions of people who may or may not be undecided voters.

On McCain's end, the phrase "Barrack Obama clearly doesn't understand" or "Barrack Obama obviously does not have the experience" were repeated over and over . . .

I watched the debate. I noted how afterward, one of the commentators picked up this. I believe a little context would be in order here. Most of the times that Obama began a rebuttal of McCain with seeming agreement, it had to do with 'motherhood and apple pie' issues that everyone agrees with. It doesn't change the fact that there are substantive policy differences between the two candidates.

Speaking of high school debating tactics, McCain's annoying repetition of the phrase "my opponent doesn't understand . . ." or words to that effect, an obvious play to get Obama riled up, apparently didn't work.