The future of healthcare in the US?

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UAHparrothead
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by UAHparrothead »

The Remittance Man wrote:
UAHparrothead wrote:I am not singling you out or calling you out, but what you said (in jest or not) made me think of another problem we have... if Obama solved the health care crisis, cured cancer and AIDS, hunted down Bin Laden, discovered the formula to cold fusion and solved the energy crisis single-handedly there would still be those who would find something to criticize about, on the flip side there are those in whose eyes Obama can do nothing wrong...at all...ever, now you can substitute any politicians name and get the same result Democrat or Republican it doesn't matter it only inverses.
I don't feel singled out, I assure you. :wink: But I do question whether there are really all that many people of the "Obama can't do anything wrong" variety out there - they certainly aren't as many or as boisterous as Bush's deciples were back around 2002-03. They were truly frightening. What I think you are seeing on the left is a tremendous sense of relief that Bush and Cheney are finally gone, and now the healing can begin. Obama isn't perfect by a longshot (on gay rights he might as well be a Republican), but to us at least, he is a huge improvement. That doesn't necessarily mean we think he's God.
This is not a question of what Obama is or is not but simply a example of politics go wrong. One of our nation's best attributesis the ability to compromise and discuss issues calmly and openly. That seems to be over and gone.

I know several people who look at Obama the same way that others looked at Bush.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by SchoolGirlHeart »

UAHparrothead wrote:This is not a question of what Obama is or is not but simply a example of politics go wrong. One of our nation's best attributesis the ability to compromise and discuss issues calmly and openly. That seems to be over and gone.

I know several people who look at Obama the same way that others looked at Bush.
I agree. There's no middle ground any more. You're with us or against us, no matter who "us" is.

If I go to a Town Hall meeting and try to voice my opinion, I'm un-American, according to the Speaker of the House. :evil:

If I don't go, I'm a sheep.

It doesn't matter, because none of my elected officials are having a Town Hall meeting and actually listening to their constituents. :-? :-?

'Nuff said, now I'm in a p*ss-poor mood. I know better than to enter debates like this. No good can come of it. :-?

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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by The Remittance Man »

UAHparrothead wrote:This is not a question of what Obama is or is not but simply a example of politics go wrong. One of our nation's best attributesis the ability to compromise and discuss issues calmly and openly. That seems to be over and gone.
In my opinion, that's a common misperception. There was never a time when both sides respected each other all that much, or when there wasn't some name calling.
SchoolGirlHeart wrote: If I go to a Town Hall meeting and try to voice my opinion, I'm un-American, according to the Speaker of the House. :evil:
If you try to voice your opinion? No. If you shout everybody else down with right-wing propaganda and prevent any meaningful exchange of ideas from taking place? Yes, that is un-American.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by C-Dawg »

The Remittance Man wrote:
UAHparrothead wrote:This is not a question of what Obama is or is not but simply a example of politics go wrong. One of our nation's best attributesis the ability to compromise and discuss issues calmly and openly. That seems to be over and gone.
In my opinion, that's a common misperception. There was never a time when both sides respected each other all that much, or when there wasn't some name calling.
SchoolGirlHeart wrote: If I go to a Town Hall meeting and try to voice my opinion, I'm un-American, according to the Speaker of the House. :evil:
If you try to voice your opinion? No. If you shout everybody else down with right-wing propaganda and prevent any meaningful exchange of ideas from taking place? Yes, that is un-American.
So only right wing propaganda is un-American? Try coming to Vermont and speaking your mind. If you aren't liberal, you aren't allowed to speak without being booed and harassed.
According to your statement that's OK? I don't believe that's what you're trying to say, but that's how it comes across.

I'm with Jen....politicians are evil....and I dispise both the Republicans and Democrats equally. The way I see it the GOP are theives who love to make bills with loopholes that allow them to get richer while the average Joe just gets by. The Dems, they are theives who believe they know how to spend your paycheck better than you do. They are Socialists in sheeps clothing. Charity should come from the heart, not from a tax that some politician says I have to pay.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by The Remittance Man »

C-Dawg wrote:So only right wing propaganda is un-American? Try coming to Vermont and speaking your mind. If you aren't liberal, you aren't allowed to speak without being booed and harassed.
According to your statement that's OK? I don't believe that's what you're trying to say, but that's how it comes across.
I guess you could interpret what I said that way if you wanted to. But the real reason why I didn't mention left-wing propaganda is because that is irrelevant to the topic at hand, which is right-wingers doing everything they can to prevent any meaningful dialogue from taking place at those town hall meetings. Of course it isn't right when liberals do it either. But as you suggested, you knew I wasn't really saying otherwise.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by Bicycle Bill »

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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by PirateJohn »

Bicycle Bill wrote:Image
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Presumably your philosophy doesn't include all the young kids that get cancer at an early age, nor the older folks that suffer from things that can best be described as normal products of aging.

Should we just put them on the street to die quietly, or what? :cry:
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by Bicycle Bill »

PirateJohn wrote:Presumably your philosophy doesn't include all the young kids that get cancer at an early age, nor the older folks that suffer from things that can best be described as normal products of aging.

Should we just put them on the street to die quietly, or what? :cry:
Of course not. But if we could transfer our energies and resources to finding cures for things like you mention, instead of trying to find the elusive "miracle pill" that will let someone eat three Super-sized Big Mac Value-meals a day and still lose weight (or treat the people who eat like there already is such a miracle pill), the country as a whole would be much better off.

I don't think you can disagree with that.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by Skibo »

PirateJohn wrote:
Presumably your philosophy doesn't include all the young kids that get cancer at an early age, nor the older folks that suffer from things that can best be described as normal products of aging.

Should we just put them on the street to die quietly, or what? :cry:
My philosophy is that the parents of these young kids should have the insurance to take care of their children. For the parents that reproduced without the means to support their family, states have CHIP programs. Old people are currently covered under a combination of medicare/medicade + optional supplementary coverage. The children and old people are already being taken care of. The bill in congress is not about taking care of children and old people.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by ph4ever »

Skibo wrote:
PirateJohn wrote:
Presumably your philosophy doesn't include all the young kids that get cancer at an early age, nor the older folks that suffer from things that can best be described as normal products of aging.

Should we just put them on the street to die quietly, or what? :cry:
My philosophy is that the parents of these young kids should have the insurance to take care of their children. For the parents that reproduced without the means to support their family, states have CHIP programs. Old people are currently covered under a combination of medicare/medicaid + optional supplementary coverage. The children and old people are already being taken care of. The bill in congress is not about taking care of children and old people.
Are you saying that people who cannot afford healthcare should not be able to have children? You seem to assume that the CHIP programs cover any child without insurance and that's simply not the case. There are many families that are under insured or lack insurance all together simply because insurance is not affordable for them. Perhaps their employer provided family premiums rose to high to be affordable, perhaps they are self employed. So what do you propose we do with those people - sterilize them so they cannot reproduce?
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by oceanstate »

When you adopt a child, there's an incredibly rigorous process you have to go through in order to prove that you are someone who has the means, ability, and desire to care for the child properly. Not so when you choose to have a child through the natural method. Pretty much anyone can do that.

While society would never allow the government to step in and make people pass some sort of competency/capability assessment before having children, it certainly is a nifty topic for cocktail hour or tailgates.

Discuss amongst yourselves....
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by buffettbride »

ph4ever wrote:
Skibo wrote:
PirateJohn wrote:
Presumably your philosophy doesn't include all the young kids that get cancer at an early age, nor the older folks that suffer from things that can best be described as normal products of aging.

Should we just put them on the street to die quietly, or what? :cry:
My philosophy is that the parents of these young kids should have the insurance to take care of their children. For the parents that reproduced without the means to support their family, states have CHIP programs. Old people are currently covered under a combination of medicare/medicaid + optional supplementary coverage. The children and old people are already being taken care of. The bill in congress is not about taking care of children and old people.
Are you saying that people who cannot afford healthcare should not be able to have children? You seem to assume that the CHIP programs cover any child without insurance and that's simply not the case. There are many families that are under insured or lack insurance all together simply because insurance is not affordable for them. Perhaps their employer provided family premiums rose to high to be affordable, perhaps they are self employed. So what do you propose we do with those people - sterilize them so they cannot reproduce?
I guess I'd have to hand my children over to social services as an unfit parent.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by ph4ever »

buffettbride wrote:
ph4ever wrote:
Skibo wrote:
PirateJohn wrote:
Presumably your philosophy doesn't include all the young kids that get cancer at an early age, nor the older folks that suffer from things that can best be described as normal products of aging.

Should we just put them on the street to die quietly, or what? :cry:
My philosophy is that the parents of these young kids should have the insurance to take care of their children. For the parents that reproduced without the means to support their family, states have CHIP programs. Old people are currently covered under a combination of medicare/medicaid + optional supplementary coverage. The children and old people are already being taken care of. The bill in congress is not about taking care of children and old people.
Are you saying that people who cannot afford healthcare should not be able to have children? You seem to assume that the CHIP programs cover any child without insurance and that's simply not the case. There are many families that are under insured or lack insurance all together simply because insurance is not affordable for them. Perhaps their employer provided family premiums rose to high to be affordable, perhaps they are self employed. So what do you propose we do with those people - sterilize them so they cannot reproduce?
I guess I'd have to hand my children over to social services as an unfit parent.
PLEASE!!! The LAST thing you are is an unfit parent!!
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by Skibo »

ph4ever wrote: Are you saying that people who cannot afford healthcare should not be able to have children? You seem to assume that the CHIP programs cover any child without insurance and that's simply not the case. There are many families that are under insured or lack insurance all together simply because insurance is not affordable for them. Perhaps their employer provided family premiums rose to high to be affordable, perhaps they are self employed. So what do you propose we do with those people - sterilize them so they cannot reproduce?
In my state all children are eligible for CHiP. There is a means test and of course the parents are expected to pay what they can afford. And yes, if you can't afford to feed, clothe and shelter a child, perhaps you should reconsider reproduction at the time, get some training to get a better job and improve your standing. I also believe that if you can't afford gas that you shouldn't buy a car. If you can't afford to take a dog or a cat to the vet for annual checkups/shots, that perhaps you should consider a fish. Part of being a responsible adult is making responsible choices. I don't believe I should have to pay for the actions of irresponsible people.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by ph4ever »

Skibo wrote:
ph4ever wrote: Are you saying that people who cannot afford healthcare should not be able to have children? You seem to assume that the CHIP programs cover any child without insurance and that's simply not the case. There are many families that are under insured or lack insurance all together simply because insurance is not affordable for them. Perhaps their employer provided family premiums rose to high to be affordable, perhaps they are self employed. So what do you propose we do with those people - sterilize them so they cannot reproduce?
In my state all children are eligible for CHiP. There is a means test and of course the parents are expected to pay what they can afford. And yes, if you can't afford to feed, clothe and shelter a child, perhaps you should reconsider reproduction at the time, get some training to get a better job and improve your standing. I also believe that if you can't afford gas that you shouldn't buy a car. If you can't afford to take a dog or a cat to the vet for annual checkups/shots, that perhaps you should consider a fish. Part of being a responsible adult is making responsible choices. I don't believe I should have to pay for the actions of irresponsible people.
Not all states are like your state. Some have a cap on who can be eligible for CHIP. I know people that can afford to feed, clothe and shelter their child and pay for basic healthcare out of their pockets but cannot afford a sudden catastrophic illness. So in your mind they are unfit parents just because they are working at building a business that they can pass on to their children so they can be self sufficient in the future.

So what do you propose for those that are not able to "afford" healthcare and they do get pregnant? Forced abortions?
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by buffettbride »

A lot of this conversation operates on the assumption that people go into parenthood a certain way (irresponsible) and doesn't take into account the fact that sometimes sh*t happens. Companies fold. Children get sick. Natural disasters strike. Carbs break down. Houses get moldy. Spouses cheat/divorce. People die. Etc. I would hope that the bubble of my ideal world burst, that I would feel like I have options to help me survive until I can get things in order again.

I don't know about anyone else, but the saying, "when it rains, it pours" definitely applies to me. Any one of those things could happen and be dealt with pretty easily. Start stacking those things on top of eachother, and you have one helluva life to deal with, no matter how responsible you are.

Just sayin'.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by Skibo »

ph4ever wrote: Not all states are like your state. Some have a cap on who can be eligible for CHIP. I know people that can afford to feed, clothe and shelter their child and pay for basic healthcare out of their pockets but cannot afford a sudden catastrophic illness. So in your mind they are unfit parents just because they are working at building a business that they can pass on to their children so they can be self sufficient in the future.

So what do you propose for those that are not able to "afford" healthcare and they do get pregnant? Forced abortions?
Perhaps you are not familiar with charity? How about the drug companies that have programs for people that cannot afford the medications? How about the fact that public hospitals cannot refuse to treat a person that walks in? As far as those that currently cannot afford healthcare that get pregnant, they currently latch onto the public teat and take advantage of it. Forced abortions exist in China. I think they have a govt run health plan don't they?
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by Skibo »

buffettbride wrote:A lot of this conversation operates on the assumption that people go into parenthood a certain way (irresponsible) and doesn't take into account the fact that sometimes sh*t happens. Companies fold. Children get sick. Natural disasters strike. Carbs break down. Houses get moldy. Spouses cheat/divorce. People die. Etc. I would hope that the bubble of my ideal world burst, that I would feel like I have options to help me survive until I can get things in order again.

I don't know about anyone else, but the saying, "when it rains, it pours" definitely applies to me. Any one of those things could happen and be dealt with pretty easily. Start stacking those things on top of eachother, and you have one helluva life to deal with, no matter how responsible you are.

Just sayin'.
It seems that you have gotten along despite your stormy weather. I don't remember anyone ever saying life would be easy. Everyone has gone through "tough" times to a certain degree. Expecting the federal govt to pay for every sh*t occurrence is pretty demanding on the taxpaying public.
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by ph4ever »

Skibo wrote:
ph4ever wrote: Not all states are like your state. Some have a cap on who can be eligible for CHIP. I know people that can afford to feed, clothe and shelter their child and pay for basic healthcare out of their pockets but cannot afford a sudden catastrophic illness. So in your mind they are unfit parents just because they are working at building a business that they can pass on to their children so they can be self sufficient in the future.

So what do you propose for those that are not able to "afford" healthcare and they do get pregnant? Forced abortions?
Perhaps you are not familiar with charity? How about the drug companies that have programs for people that cannot afford the medications? How about the fact that public hospitals cannot refuse to treat a person that walks in? As far as those that currently cannot afford healthcare that get pregnant, they currently latch onto the public teat and take advantage of it. Forced abortions exist in China. I think they have a govt run health plan don't they?

Of course I'm familiar with charity.

I'm VERY familiar with the drug company programs and know people that have been turned down because the drug company reached their cap for the year for a specific drug.

As I stated in another thread I also know someone who went to a public hospital presenting with chest pains and received substandard care because he didn't have insurance. Told he was just having gas and had a full blown heart attack the next day and damn near died.

I didn't ask you about China. You're the one that is against people having children unless they fit a certain criteria of what you consider financial and adult responsibility. You failed to answer my question of what should be done to those that don't fall into your guidelines of what should constitute a person's ability to be a parent. If someone does not meet your proposed requirements for parenthood and become pregnant - what then? What do you propose happen?
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Re: The future of healthcare in the US?

Post by buffettbride »

Skibo wrote:
buffettbride wrote:A lot of this conversation operates on the assumption that people go into parenthood a certain way (irresponsible) and doesn't take into account the fact that sometimes sh*t happens. Companies fold. Children get sick. Natural disasters strike. Carbs break down. Houses get moldy. Spouses cheat/divorce. People die. Etc. I would hope that the bubble of my ideal world burst, that I would feel like I have options to help me survive until I can get things in order again.

I don't know about anyone else, but the saying, "when it rains, it pours" definitely applies to me. Any one of those things could happen and be dealt with pretty easily. Start stacking those things on top of eachother, and you have one helluva life to deal with, no matter how responsible you are.

Just sayin'.
It seems that you have gotten along despite your stormy weather. I don't remember anyone ever saying life would be easy. Everyone has gone through "tough" times to a certain degree. Expecting the federal govt to pay for every sh*t occurrence is pretty demanding on the taxpaying public.


Not ALL of those things have happened to me, but I do have sympathy for the folks who have weathered many of those things at one time. I very easily could be one broken-down car or flooded basement or dead appliance from not being able to reasonably afford health care for my family with the current options available to me.

I'm sure where I expect the feds to take care of all of that, but to make it such a black and white "I'm only responsible for ME" attitude is really what's wrong with this picture. If that's the attitude I had at my job, I'd surely be fired.

I'd like to think I teach my kids that what they get out of life is equivalent to what they put in---and the more you put into life the more you'll get out of it.
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