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Key Lime Lee wrote:

AlbatrossFlyer wrote:
unfortunately its what the sponsors want....

I understand the business considerations.. but there's a line beyond which too clean is not interesting. When no one shows up at race tracks, what good is the sponsorship?

I guess we haven't reached the "too clean" point yet. With the exception of certain tracks in the southeast Nascar sells as many tickets as it can print. TV viewership continues to make a steady climb. OK, there are a group of fans that like the roughhouse stuff, but that is not what draws the MAJORITY of fans. Yes, people REMEMBER the crashes, but they also remember "the pass in the grass" and Ricky Craven's bump and grind win last year. Dale Sr. blowing a tire on the last lap of Daytona. They remember Ned Jarret calling his son's Daytona victory.

You keep bringing up the Yarbobough/Allison fight. While it did raise some awareness of the sport you find the biggest increases in fan interest DIRECTLY related to the live TV package. THAT is what brought the sponsors to NASCAR. When you watch ESPN Classic and they show races from the early 80s the majority of cars do not have sponsors. The sponsors at the time were car related, beer, jeans. Then somebody looked in the stands and OMG there were women there! When Tide sponsored Darrel Waltrip it changed the face of Nascar, bringing in mainstream sponsors for just about every team.

You can pine for the "good old days" all you want, but the landscape has changed. NASCAR is now very mainstream and wants to stay that way. They do more marketing reasearch, in conjunction with their sponsors, than any other sport. That is what drives their direction now. As with anything involving money the people in charge are willing to cater to the majority in the middle. That research says that MOST people like the close racing and the fact that almost any driver can win from week to week. It drives the rules and technical research that NASCAR does now.

As NASCAR fans we are, for the most part, no longer viewed as beer-swilling southern rednecks. When corporate America wants to get the message out about something NASCAR is always near the top of the list for their money. Sidew13 is right. Follow the money. You know the Golden Rule:

WHOEVER HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES.

Deal with it.

SuperTrooper wrote: TV viewership continues to make a steady climb.

Actually no. TV viewership over the past few years has been decidedly mixed.

SuperTrooper wrote: When you watch ESPN Classic and they show races from the early 80s the majority of cars do not have sponsors.

That's not true either, but don't let accuracy stand in the way of your point.

SuperTrooper wrote: but they also remember "the pass in the grass"

A pass that, these days, would most likely result in a penalty for reckless driving.

SuperTrooper wrote: They do more marketing reasearch, in conjunction with their sponsors, than any other sport.

And their decision-making process reflects this... ironically market research doesn't always reflect the actual desires of the market.

SuperTrooper wrote: You keep bringing up the Yarbobough/Allison fight. While it did raise some awareness of the sport you find the biggest increases in fan interest DIRECTLY related to the live TV package. THAT is what brought the sponsors to NASCAR.

Yes in relation to the live broadcast, but according to your theory sponsors seeing the first live flag to flag broadcast end in a fist-fight on national television should have sent sponsors running from the sport. It didn't.

I guarantee you if you poll race fans and ask 'em if they think the Harvick-Kenseth deal is detrimental to the sport the overwhelming majority will say no, and guaranteed they'll be watching closer this weekend whenever the two get near each other.

And to be clear - I'm not some old-timer pining for the old days of the sport... and I certainly don't mind the mainstreaming of NASCAR... my only concern is when. in a quest for market share NASCAR forgets the fundamentals that make the sport interesting in the first place.

If it was simply close racing and a different winner every week then truck and Busch racing would be as big as Cup - in many cases the racing is BETTER in those divisions. But people want personalities and rivalries. They KNOW who is who in the Cup series and what two guys next to each other might be trouble and that's what makes it interesting, what has always made it interesting.

Go ask the folks involved with the sport on the national level what brings folks back every week and tell me what they say.... chances are they'll tell you the same things they told me.

I want to start off by saying that I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

While people might pay attention a little closer when the cars in question are together it is not the BASIS for general fan interest in NASCAR. It is nothing more than a diversion from the RACING. If that's why you watch NASCAR then more power to you. In general these incidents are rare enough that it brings them to our attention. My own opinion is that these actions are stupid, immature, and add nothing to the sport.

Regarding TV, for each of the networks involved TOTAL VIEWERSHIP was up last year over the previous year. While weather-related problems at the beginning of the year caused lower numbers, the mid-summer numbers (particularly the night races) brought it back up.

This weekend is the only race I genuinely don't look forward to. Long green stringing cars out across a track so wide you could run 5 across on the backstretch with room to spare. This track offers little challenge to the drivers. It'll probably come down to a fuel milage race. Give me Bristol anyday.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to the 2 races at NHIS. While I don't always agree with decisions NASCAR makes I still love the RACING.

SuperTrooper wrote:Anyway, I'm really looking forward to the 2 races at NHIS. While I don't always agree with decisions NASCAR makes I still love the RACING.

I hear ya... in the end it's the passion for the sport that drives both of us to care.

Do you go to any races, Lee?

SuperTrooper wrote:Do you go to any races, Lee?

Dick Berggren's Speedway Illustrated
pg. 61
Learning Curves by Lee Totten
Lee is a well race fan!

I have met Lee about a year ago in person. And have chatted on line with him many times. He is not a person to post innaccurate facts.

And no I am not slamming you ST or anyone else. But Everytime Lee post the truth, most people who don't know him, mistake him for being rude or a jerk. He is very nice, and very smart person.

just the facts

Sidew13 wrote:

SuperTrooper wrote:Do you go to any races, Lee?

Dick Berggren's Speedway Illustrated
pg. 61
Learning Curves by Lee Totten
Lee is a well race fan!

I have met Lee about a year ago in person. And have chatted on line with him many times. He is not a person to post innaccurate facts.

And no I am not slamming you ST or anyone else. But Everytime Lee post the truth, most people who don't know him, mistake him for being rude or a jerk. He is very nice, and very smart person.

just the facts

I wasn't challenging Lee's status as a fan! I was asking him, fan to fan, if he gets to go to any races. I felt that we had covered our opinions and was trying to move in a new direction. I had no idea he was THAT Lee Totten.

I'm sure he is a nice, smart person, and I look forward to meeting him someday. I sometimes get annoyed when people here make the same point over and over again without advancing the discussion.

Sidew13 wrote:

SuperTrooper wrote:Do you go to any races, Lee?

Dick Berggren's Speedway Illustrated
pg. 61
Learning Curves by Lee Totten
Lee is a well race fan!

November 2003 issue. An artical about Driver's Most Embarrassing Moments.

I understand about beating a dead horse.

SuperTrooper wrote:While I don't always agree with decisions NASCAR makes I still love the RACING.

KeyLimeLee wrote: I hear ya... in the end it's the passion for the sport that drives both of us to care.

And those are the most important things to remember. If we all argeed all the time, what fun would it be. But as long it is a calm, rational "dissagreement", then it's all good.

Ricky Craven's bump and grind win last year

and as a Ricky Craven fan, I must say WOOOO HOOOO

Sidew13 wrote:

Ricky Craven's bump and grind win last year

and as a Ricky Craven fan, I must say WOOOO HOOOO

I must agree... Craven is not my favorite, but I really like him as a person. I had the privelege of meeting him at an appearance two years ago and it is a totally different experience meeting the "less popular" drivers who win maybe one race a year but still finish in the top 20 consistently. Since they don't have long lines like others (Kenseth, Stewart, Wallace just to name a few), they take time for pictures and sign two or three items.
<<<here I am with Ricky

cool pic, p1987

I got to meet Jimmy Spence 10 or so years ago.. He was at a local car show with Mark Martin and Dale Earnhardt. You couldn't get near Dale, and believe me I tried. Martin was the same. But Spencer had no line, so sad. Me and a buddy just stood there and talked with him for 20 or so min. He is real nice in person, believe it or not

Sidew13 wrote:But Spencer had no line, so sad. Me and a buddy just stood there and talked with him for 20 or so min. He is real nice in person, believe it or not

Must've been the wrong Spencer... that whining fat thing can't be a nice guy!!!

prrthd1987 wrote:

Sidew13 wrote:But Spencer had no line, so sad. Me and a buddy just stood there and talked with him for 20 or so min. He is real nice in person, believe it or not

Must've been the wrong Spencer... that whining fat thing can't be a nice guy!!!

Yep, it WAS that Spencer .

BTW... NASCAR screwed up twice last night in the Busch race. Putting a guy in the back that shouldn't be there and later a guy upfront who shouldn't be there what a bunch of Monkeys f***ing the football
(sorry Shane)

SuperTrooper wrote: Harvick took exception to a bump most would consider "just a racin' deal", and escalated it beyond reason. It's too bad Dale Sr. isn't around to explain what being a Nascar driver means to him.

Speaking of facts, in reviewing the tape of the race, one can clearly see that Harvick never made contact with Matt Kenseth. Harvick presented many pieces of evidence to NASCAR illustrating that Kenseth spun out on his own (perhaps on the oil left from the blown engine that instigated the caution?). It was clear, however, that Kenseth believed Harvick had spun him. NASCAR agreed with Harvick but said he was being penalized simply for having been involved in trouble in the past, which seems, to me, to be totally ridiculous.

Speaking of ridiculous, howsabout this from Helton's comments in the driver's meeting this AM...

But I want to remind everybody that this sport is what it is because of its longevity, it's effort to be correct and fair and the participants that make it up and the officials that run the races and the race tracks that entertain us and the sponsors that become involved

Anyone think maybe he forgot one important group of people like, I dunno, maybe the FANS?

bubba phan wrote:NASCAR agreed with Harvick but said he was being penalized simply for having been involved in trouble in the past

Sounds fair to me, NOT . Why not arrest drivers for a drunk driving violation 5 years ago.

KeyLimeLee wrote:Anyone think maybe he forgot one important group of people like, I dunno, maybe the FANS?

Fans? What are they? Oh yeah, the ones BUYING THE TICKETS. Hello NASCAR, Wake up

I have to give credit to FOX for being willing to slam NASCAR at the start of yesterday's broadcast. They gave a voice to a lot of the questions in fans minds. They also let them have it at the end for throwing the caution with half a lap to go. I don't think the 9 car could have passed Newman, but if Ryan had an engine failure or a tire blow on the last corner it would have been interesting. NASCAR gave the lame excuse that there were still several cars approaching the crash. WTF are the spotters for?

I am jumping into this one late, but what's up with cars 9 and 10 laps down getting to start up front on the side by side restarts and messing up the leaders who have a legitimate shot at winning the race? Case in point, Dale Jarrett in yesterday's race in Michigan. There were guys 9 or more laps down keeping him from chasing the leaders. AND THEN the freakin caution on the last lap when Kasey Kahne was making a run for the lead. Gees. . .what has happened to the sport? I remember the Alabama gang racing like nobody's business right up until the end. I'm also not looking forward to the switch from FOX to NBC for race coverage. NBC never has announcers that know anything.

Just wait until the last 10 races when you have 30 guys with NO CHANCE of winning the championship getting in the way of the 10 who do.

If it's gonna be like playoffs, then ditch the other 30 guys after the "regular season".

Key Lime Lee wrote:Just wait until the last 10 races when you have 30 guys with NO CHANCE of winning the championship getting in the way of the 10 who do.

If it's gonna be like playoffs, then ditch the other 30 guys after the "regular season".

Sounds like a Hugh monkey F***ing a whole bunch of footballs.

As far as the 10 laps or so lap-down, if it's at the beginning of the race, the driver DOES have a chance to make up some laps. But with 20 or so, they don't have a prayer. They should restart at the back.

Sidew13 wrote:Sounds like a Hugh monkey F***ing a whole bunch of footballs.

DAYS OF THUNDER!!!