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Posted: November 23, 2004 11:54 am
by buffettbride
CUparrot wrote:
Four Play wrote:
buffettbride wrote:I can't think of a single mom I know that didn't have irrational thoughts about harming their own baby--even if it is just for a moment and you know that you would never act on it.
Can you be more specific for me? Harm in what way? This lady cut her baby's arms off.
I think what Mal means is that a lot of women have irrational thoughts following childbirth, but that they vary in severity, and MOST people don't act on them. For instance, I had a friend who confessed to me that following the birth of her son, she suffered some PPD.....she was convinced he hated her and she had thoughts of taking him out in the woods and leaving him there. But she didn't do it, and she spoke to her doc about it, and she's fine now. Her son is now 2 and both are doing fine.

I hope this is not something I have to deal with when my baby is born, but you never know.... :-?
Exactly CU. I'm not sure I made my point the best I could. I certainly wasn't trying to argue that what this woman did was JUSTIFIED!!! It's just PPD does bad bad things to you mentally. I'm sure you will be fine CU!!

Posted: November 23, 2004 12:03 pm
by Mr Play
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 4c838.html

11:24 AM CST on Tuesday, November 23, 2004

PLANO – Covered in her daughter's blood, Dena Schlosser sat in the living room of her apartment listening to the hymn "He Touched Me."

"Shackled by a heavy burden/'Neath a load of guilt and shame/Then the hand of Jesus touched me/And now I am no longer the same," the beginning of the hymn goes.

Ms. Schlosser is heard humming along on a 911 recording as she answers a telephone call from an emergency dispatcher about noon Monday.

"I cut her arms off," the 35-year-old said in a quiet voice about her 10-month-old daughter, who later died. She tells him the baby is unconscious and isn't breathing.

Paramedics found the baby in a crib in a bedroom. Her arms were severed. The child died at Medical Center of Plano.

Ms. Schlosser, who was diagnosed with postpartum depression during a Child Protective Services neglect investigation early this year, was charged with capital murder Monday afternoon.

When paramedics arrived, a man's voice can be heard on the 911 tape calmly saying: "Give me the knife now. Give me the knife."

She offered no explanation for her actions to the dispatcher, and police would not comment about why she may have killed the youngest of her three daughters. They also would not discuss whether investigators recovered a knife or other weapon.

The child's name has not been released, and the woman's husband could not be reached for comment.

"Both arms were completely severed," Plano police spokesman Officer Carl Duke said. "She was not talking when she left here. She was very quiet, subdued."

Plano police said the child's injuries were horrifying.

"I've never had to face anything like this before," Detective Bryan Wood said. "And, frankly, I'd never want to.

"My sympathies go out to the family and to the first responders on the scene."

Ms. Schlosser's husband and two other daughters, ages 6 and 9, lived in the downstairs apartment but were not home at the time. The older daughters, who have been placed in temporary foster homes, were in school.

Ms. Schlosser's husband had called an employee at a child-care facility and asked her to check on his wife as he drove home from work in Arlington, according to the 911 recording. A co-worker of that woman then called 911.

It was not the first time authorities were called to the apartment on Coit Road.

A CPS investigator was sent to Ms. Schlosser's home Jan. 15 after she was seen running down the street, followed by her then-5-year-old daughter, who was on a bicycle. When police and CPS arrived at the scene, the child told them her mother had left her 6-day-old sister alone in the family's apartment. None of the children was injured.

The mother, who was despondent, appeared to be suffering from postpartum depression, said Marissa Gonzales, CPS spokeswoman.
"Mom started walking and running from the apartment," Ms. Gonzales said. "Someone called law enforcement, and she was obviously having some sort of psychotic episode."

Ms. Schlosser was taken to a Collin County hospital, where she was treated for a few days, Ms. Gonzales said. The children were released to their father, who told authorities she had been acting strangely since the birth of the third child Jan. 9.

Once Ms. Schlosser was released from the hospital, she agreed to seek counseling and see a psychiatrist, Ms. Gonzales said.
She kept all of her appointments and at one time had received a prescription for a psychotropic drug. But sometime between January and August, she was taken off the medication, Ms. Gonzales said.

"We had received assurances that Mom was stable from the people who were dealing with her, the professionals," Geoffrey Wool, CPS spokesman in Austin, said of the decision by her doctors to take her off of the medication.

CPS caseworkers continued to visit the family through the spring and summer, the last time on July 29.

"She was doing well," Ms. Gonzales said.
The case was closed Aug. 9 and classified with a finding of "Reason To Believe-Neglectful Supervision."

"At the time we had closed the case, we had been assured she was stabilized and she posed no risk to herself or her children, to the extent that you can predict these things," Mr. Wool said.

The baby's death shocked residents of the apartment complex, which is home to numerous families.

Michael Lujan, 25, who lives in the same building, said he often saw Ms. Schlosser and her children having picnics under the trees near their building. He said she stayed home with the children while her husband worked. Her older daughter often rode her bike.

"I'm in shock," said Mr. Lujan, who has two children. "She seemed sweet to me ... just like any other mother. She was loving and tended to their needs."

Others struggled to understand how such a tragedy could happen.

"What would drive a person to do that?" said resident Jacob Hopland, 22. "I know kids are hard to handle, but you have to step up and be a good parent."

Officer Duke said Ms. Schlosser was not talking with officers at the police station about what happened. No previous criminal record could be found.

Mood problems are common up to two week after giving birth, said J. Douglas Crowder, clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas.

"That's the so-called baby blues," Dr. Crowder said. "When it goes longer than that, you need to be concerned."

Postpartum symptoms are the same as depression, Dr. Crowder said. Mood swings, loss of appetite, insomnia, fatigue and thoughts of suicide are typical. At the worst psychotic level, mothers may hallucinate or conclude that their children are hopelessly flawed and better off dead.
But he said violence toward children is uncommon in postpartum cases.
Dr. Crowder said a law that went into effect last year requires doctors to warn parents of the effects of postpartum depression.

The law was precipitated by the case of Andrea Yates of Houston, who was sentenced to life in prison in 2002 for drowning three of her five children, he said. It is meant to prompt families to seek medical help for women who display symptoms.

Posted: November 23, 2004 12:26 pm
by semitruths
I have a friend who works at a children's hospital. She/they do a tremendous amount there to help kids with problems of all kinds, for parents who go through so much extreme emotional hardships .... and to think that someone can be this far 'off base' to harm a child in this manner .... I can't bring myself to even mention this to her. :o :o :o

Posted: November 23, 2004 12:37 pm
by ph4ever
Thanks for the update!!! I was watching NBC5 this morning and in their reports it was mentioned that a CPS case worker had also accompanied the mother to a couple of her therapy sessions.

Posted: November 23, 2004 12:43 pm
by iuparrothead
buffettbride wrote:PPD is a SERIOUS condition that is not always taken very seriously and not always understood. I know I'll probably take a lashing for saying this, but most new moms have irrational fantasies about harming their babies. For some moms, it's very extreme. For others, it's a fleeting thought. What is very important, though, is understanding that this is a mental illness. It can usually be treated successfully with medication, however, there is a lot of pressure (a lot of times from husbands), to not take medication to manage the problem.
Mal is soooo right on here. PPD, like most mental illness, is so misunderstood by the general public. And she's right on about the pressure husbands discouraging treatment and medication. Russell Yates was the real criminal in the death of his and Andrea's children. Andrea was very sick and needed help for a long time. Russell discouraged medication, forced her to stay home, closed her off with 5 helpless children that needed her and she genuinely believed she was doing the right thing for them by ending their lives in the bathtub. She was dillusional and believed they were going to die a much more horrible and painful death under her care than if she just ended their lives peacefully.

I feel terribly for this women that killed her child. When/if she's ever well again, she is going to suffer worse than anyone.

Posted: November 23, 2004 1:16 pm
by ph4ever
iuparrothead wrote:
buffettbride wrote:PPD is a SERIOUS condition that is not always taken very seriously and not always understood. I know I'll probably take a lashing for saying this, but most new moms have irrational fantasies about harming their babies. For some moms, it's very extreme. For others, it's a fleeting thought. What is very important, though, is understanding that this is a mental illness. It can usually be treated successfully with medication, however, there is a lot of pressure (a lot of times from husbands), to not take medication to manage the problem.
Mal is soooo right on here. PPD, like most mental illness, is so misunderstood by the general public. And she's right on about the pressure husbands discouraging treatment and medication. Russell Yates was the real criminal in the death of his and Andrea's children. Andrea was very sick and needed help for a long time. Russell discouraged medication, forced her to stay home, closed her off with 5 helpless children that needed her and she genuinely believed she was doing the right thing for them by ending their lives in the bathtub. She was dillusional and believed they were going to die a much more horrible and painful death under her care than if she just ended their lives peacefully.

I feel terribly for this women that killed her child. When/if she's ever well again, she is going to suffer worse than anyone.

Personally I've found that with any mental illness there is quite a bit of pressure to work thru it - not just PPD. I once dated a man whose ex-wife was on meds for depression. He belittled her to me about it and said "I was raised to work thru your problems and not rely on drugs". I think this thinking is fairly common to a lot of people - possibly because of the stigma attached to mental illness that was prevalant in the 50's, 60's and prior. Let's remember it's only been in the past 20 years or so that depression, anxiety and other forms of mental illness have been openly discussed. That's really not a long time for something that has been around forever. Not that I'm condoning the husbands that pressure their wives into trying to work thru their PPD but trying to understand all sides of the problem.

Posted: November 23, 2004 1:19 pm
by fairhopeparrot
I don't understand how anyone whether ill or not could harm their children. God Bless that child.

Posted: November 23, 2004 1:32 pm
by CUparrot
buffettbride wrote:I'm sure you will be fine CU!!
I hope so! It is something I think about from time to time. I know people who have never experienced depression or other mental health issues can have problems with PPD.

Posted: November 23, 2004 1:46 pm
by Mr Play
fairhopeparrot wrote:I don't understand how anyone whether ill or not could harm their children. God Bless that child.
And the older sisters too. They're 6 and 9.

Posted: November 23, 2004 4:19 pm
by halfpint6924
What still bothers me is the women and families out there that would cherish a baby and can't have any. I work with a woman who would have been the best parent but she and her husband couldn't have children. She tries to make up for by being the best aunt she can to her nieces....but being a mother....I know it's just not the same.

Posted: November 23, 2004 4:51 pm
by Mr Play
halfpint6924 wrote:What still bothers me is the women and families out there that would cherish a baby and can't have any.
That was the first thing my wife said when I told her about it last night.

Posted: November 23, 2004 5:18 pm
by iuparrothead
Thus the reason she most certainly was mentally ill, because she hurt her child. We all rationally think that no one in their right mind would hurt a child because we do not suffer from the same desperate condition she did.

When it comes to those that can't have children, I have much more ill-sentiment towards lazy, neglectful parents that are mentally fit. :-?

Posted: November 23, 2004 5:49 pm
by ph4ever
Ann I am so glad you finally responded - you are much more eloquent than me - and you spell better too!! :D

Posted: November 23, 2004 6:03 pm
by Mr Play
iuparrothead wrote:When it comes to those that can't have children, I have much more ill-sentiment towards lazy, neglectful parents that are mentally fit. :-?
I am really struggling to understand this whole thing, but I can't agree with that. Regardless of the reason, abusing a child or killing a baby is far worse than being a lazy parent. To me, the outcome is all that matters. I'm not condoning lazy parenting, but the result of that is still a live human being. The result of killing a baby is a dead baby who never even had a chance.

Posted: November 23, 2004 6:12 pm
by big hat carmen
fairhopeparrot wrote:I don't understand how anyone whether ill or not could harm their children. God Bless that child.
Thankfully for you then, you have never been near a person who is truly psychotic. It is a frightening illness that most people do not understand. From the article, I gather that this mother truly believed that she was doing what was best for the child. That is a prime example of a delusion, an erronous fixed idea.

If anyone wants to read more about depression or any psychotic illness, I recommend the NAMI, National Alliance for the Mentally Ill website.

Posted: November 23, 2004 8:02 pm
by ragtopW
semitruths wrote:
buffettbride wrote:
ragtopW wrote:To me the real issue isn't if this lady had/had PPD but
will other sick demented, uncaring people use this as an excuse???
look at the recent history.. OH I ate too many Twinkees.
I wrote a letter to Jodi foster. My mom did things to me :roll:

what is sad is the "fakes" take our compasion from the 'reals"
because we are just sick up and fed with the whole excuse thing.
I hate to disagree with you Wayne but PPD is a very, very real thing and it is very scary. It doesn't excuse the behavior, but it's not just some weird made up thing. When it's severe and not monitored closely, things like this happen. But it's not to say that it shouldn't go unpunished.



Thanks ST and Mal that is what I meant not the Q weather PPD is or is not
real. But the fact that other people are "making things up"
it hardens our hearts to the point that we just don't feel the
way we should about the ones who do need help.

I can't think of a single mom I know that didn't have irrational thoughts about harming their own baby--even if it is just for a moment and you know that you would never act on it.

I read Wayne a little different on this ........ not questioning the PPD but questioning others ....

Posted: November 23, 2004 9:14 pm
by Y-NO-9-O
Four Play wrote:http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 4c838.html

11:24 AM CST on Tuesday, November 23, 2004

PLANO – Covered in her daughter's blood, Dena Schlosser sat in the living room of her apartment listening to the hymn "He Touched Me."

"Shackled by a heavy burden/'Neath a load of guilt and shame/Then the hand of Jesus touched me/And now I am no longer the same," the beginning of the hymn goes.

Ms. Schlosser is heard humming along on a 911 recording as she answers a telephone call from an emergency dispatcher about noon Monday.

"I cut her arms off," the 35-year-old said in a quiet voice about her 10-month-old daughter, who later died. She tells him the baby is unconscious and isn't breathing.

Paramedics found the baby in a crib in a bedroom. Her arms were severed. The child died at Medical Center of Plano.

Ms. Schlosser, who was diagnosed with postpartum depression during a Child Protective Services neglect investigation early this year, was charged with capital murder Monday afternoon.

When paramedics arrived, a man's voice can be heard on the 911 tape calmly saying: "Give me the knife now. Give me the knife."

She offered no explanation for her actions to the dispatcher, and police would not comment about why she may have killed the youngest of her three daughters. They also would not discuss whether investigators recovered a knife or other weapon.

The child's name has not been released, and the woman's husband could not be reached for comment.

"Both arms were completely severed," Plano police spokesman Officer Carl Duke said. "She was not talking when she left here. She was very quiet, subdued."

Plano police said the child's injuries were horrifying.

"I've never had to face anything like this before," Detective Bryan Wood said. "And, frankly, I'd never want to.

"My sympathies go out to the family and to the first responders on the scene."

Ms. Schlosser's husband and two other daughters, ages 6 and 9, lived in the downstairs apartment but were not home at the time. The older daughters, who have been placed in temporary foster homes, were in school.

Ms. Schlosser's husband had called an employee at a child-care facility and asked her to check on his wife as he drove home from work in Arlington, according to the 911 recording. A co-worker of that woman then called 911.

It was not the first time authorities were called to the apartment on Coit Road.

A CPS investigator was sent to Ms. Schlosser's home Jan. 15 after she was seen running down the street, followed by her then-5-year-old daughter, who was on a bicycle. When police and CPS arrived at the scene, the child told them her mother had left her 6-day-old sister alone in the family's apartment. None of the children was injured.

The mother, who was despondent, appeared to be suffering from postpartum depression, said Marissa Gonzales, CPS spokeswoman.
"Mom started walking and running from the apartment," Ms. Gonzales said. "Someone called law enforcement, and she was obviously having some sort of psychotic episode."

Ms. Schlosser was taken to a Collin County hospital, where she was treated for a few days, Ms. Gonzales said. The children were released to their father, who told authorities she had been acting strangely since the birth of the third child Jan. 9.

Once Ms. Schlosser was released from the hospital, she agreed to seek counseling and see a psychiatrist, Ms. Gonzales said.
She kept all of her appointments and at one time had received a prescription for a psychotropic drug. But sometime between January and August, she was taken off the medication, Ms. Gonzales said.

"We had received assurances that Mom was stable from the people who were dealing with her, the professionals," Geoffrey Wool, CPS spokesman in Austin, said of the decision by her doctors to take her off of the medication.

CPS caseworkers continued to visit the family through the spring and summer, the last time on July 29.

"She was doing well," Ms. Gonzales said.
The case was closed Aug. 9 and classified with a finding of "Reason To Believe-Neglectful Supervision."

"At the time we had closed the case, we had been assured she was stabilized and she posed no risk to herself or her children, to the extent that you can predict these things," Mr. Wool said.

The baby's death shocked residents of the apartment complex, which is home to numerous families.

Michael Lujan, 25, who lives in the same building, said he often saw Ms. Schlosser and her children having picnics under the trees near their building. He said she stayed home with the children while her husband worked. Her older daughter often rode her bike.

"I'm in shock," said Mr. Lujan, who has two children. "She seemed sweet to me ... just like any other mother. She was loving and tended to their needs."

Others struggled to understand how such a tragedy could happen.

"What would drive a person to do that?" said resident Jacob Hopland, 22. "I know kids are hard to handle, but you have to step up and be a good parent."

Officer Duke said Ms. Schlosser was not talking with officers at the police station about what happened. No previous criminal record could be found.

Mood problems are common up to two week after giving birth, said J. Douglas Crowder, clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas.

"That's the so-called baby blues," Dr. Crowder said. "When it goes longer than that, you need to be concerned."

Postpartum symptoms are the same as depression, Dr. Crowder said. Mood swings, loss of appetite, insomnia, fatigue and thoughts of suicide are typical. At the worst psychotic level, mothers may hallucinate or conclude that their children are hopelessly flawed and better off dead.
But he said violence toward children is uncommon in postpartum cases.
Dr. Crowder said a law that went into effect last year requires doctors to warn parents of the effects of postpartum depression.

The law was precipitated by the case of Andrea Yates of Houston, who was sentenced to life in prison in 2002 for drowning three of her five children, he said. It is meant to prompt families to seek medical help for women who display symptoms.

Posted: November 23, 2004 9:15 pm
by Y-NO-9-O
Sorry, meant to say...
Y-NO-9-O wrote:
Four Play wrote:http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 4c838.html

11:24 AM CST on Tuesday, November 23, 2004

PLANO – Covered in her daughter's blood, Dena Schlosser sat in the living room of her apartment listening to the hymn "He Touched Me."

"Shackled by a heavy burden/'Neath a load of guilt and shame/Then the hand of Jesus touched me/And now I am no longer the same," the beginning of the hymn goes.

Ms. Schlosser is heard humming along on a 911 recording as she answers a telephone call from an emergency dispatcher about noon Monday.

"I cut her arms off," the 35-year-old said in a quiet voice about her 10-month-old daughter, who later died. She tells him the baby is unconscious and isn't breathing.

Paramedics found the baby in a crib in a bedroom. Her arms were severed. The child died at Medical Center of Plano.

Ms. Schlosser, who was diagnosed with postpartum depression during a Child Protective Services neglect investigation early this year, was charged with capital murder Monday afternoon.

When paramedics arrived, a man's voice can be heard on the 911 tape calmly saying: "Give me the knife now. Give me the knife."

She offered no explanation for her actions to the dispatcher, and police would not comment about why she may have killed the youngest of her three daughters. They also would not discuss whether investigators recovered a knife or other weapon.

The child's name has not been released, and the woman's husband could not be reached for comment.

"Both arms were completely severed," Plano police spokesman Officer Carl Duke said. "She was not talking when she left here. She was very quiet, subdued."

Plano police said the child's injuries were horrifying.

"I've never had to face anything like this before," Detective Bryan Wood said. "And, frankly, I'd never want to.

"My sympathies go out to the family and to the first responders on the scene."

Ms. Schlosser's husband and two other daughters, ages 6 and 9, lived in the downstairs apartment but were not home at the time. The older daughters, who have been placed in temporary foster homes, were in school.

Ms. Schlosser's husband had called an employee at a child-care facility and asked her to check on his wife as he drove home from work in Arlington, according to the 911 recording. A co-worker of that woman then called 911.

It was not the first time authorities were called to the apartment on Coit Road.

A CPS investigator was sent to Ms. Schlosser's home Jan. 15 after she was seen running down the street, followed by her then-5-year-old daughter, who was on a bicycle. When police and CPS arrived at the scene, the child told them her mother had left her 6-day-old sister alone in the family's apartment. None of the children was injured.

The mother, who was despondent, appeared to be suffering from postpartum depression, said Marissa Gonzales, CPS spokeswoman.
"Mom started walking and running from the apartment," Ms. Gonzales said. "Someone called law enforcement, and she was obviously having some sort of psychotic episode."

Ms. Schlosser was taken to a Collin County hospital, where she was treated for a few days, Ms. Gonzales said. The children were released to their father, who told authorities she had been acting strangely since the birth of the third child Jan. 9.

Once Ms. Schlosser was released from the hospital, she agreed to seek counseling and see a psychiatrist, Ms. Gonzales said.
She kept all of her appointments and at one time had received a prescription for a psychotropic drug. But sometime between January and August, she was taken off the medication, Ms. Gonzales said.

"We had received assurances that Mom was stable from the people who were dealing with her, the professionals," Geoffrey Wool, CPS spokesman in Austin, said of the decision by her doctors to take her off of the medication.

CPS caseworkers continued to visit the family through the spring and summer, the last time on July 29.

"She was doing well," Ms. Gonzales said.
The case was closed Aug. 9 and classified with a finding of "Reason To Believe-Neglectful Supervision."

"At the time we had closed the case, we had been assured she was stabilized and she posed no risk to herself or her children, to the extent that you can predict these things," Mr. Wool said.

The baby's death shocked residents of the apartment complex, which is home to numerous families.

Michael Lujan, 25, who lives in the same building, said he often saw Ms. Schlosser and her children having picnics under the trees near their building. He said she stayed home with the children while her husband worked. Her older daughter often rode her bike.

"I'm in shock," said Mr. Lujan, who has two children. "She seemed sweet to me ... just like any other mother. She was loving and tended to their needs."

Others struggled to understand how such a tragedy could happen.

"What would drive a person to do that?" said resident Jacob Hopland, 22. "I know kids are hard to handle, but you have to step up and be a good parent."

Officer Duke said Ms. Schlosser was not talking with officers at the police station about what happened. No previous criminal record could be found.

Mood problems are common up to two week after giving birth, said J. Douglas Crowder, clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas.

"That's the so-called baby blues," Dr. Crowder said. "When it goes longer than that, you need to be concerned."

Postpartum symptoms are the same as depression, Dr. Crowder said. Mood swings, loss of appetite, insomnia, fatigue and thoughts of suicide are typical. At the worst psychotic level, mothers may hallucinate or conclude that their children are hopelessly flawed and better off dead.
But he said violence toward children is uncommon in postpartum cases.
Dr. Crowder said a law that went into effect last year requires doctors to warn parents of the effects of postpartum depression.

The law was precipitated by the case of Andrea Yates of Houston, who was sentenced to life in prison in 2002 for drowning three of her five children, he said. It is meant to prompt families to seek medical help for women who display symptoms.

Posted: November 24, 2004 8:38 am
by ph4ever
This morning on news reports the mother gave an indication that she was no longer stable. It was reported that she told her husband she wanted to send her children back to God. :( :(

Posted: November 24, 2004 10:58 am
by iuparrothead
Four Play wrote:
iuparrothead wrote:When it comes to those that can't have children, I have much more ill-sentiment towards lazy, neglectful parents that are mentally fit. :-?
I am really struggling to understand this whole thing, but I can't agree with that. Regardless of the reason, abusing a child or killing a baby is far worse than being a lazy parent. To me, the outcome is all that matters. I'm not condoning lazy parenting, but the result of that is still a live human being. The result of killing a baby is a dead baby who never even had a chance.
I understand what you're saying. What I'm suggesting is that there are parents that would sacrifice formula for their baby so they can buy a carton of cigarettes. Parents that leave their toddlers home alone while they go to the mini-mart to buy lottery tickets. Parents that don't take their kids to the doctor because they're too lazy to get off the couch. Parents that feed their kids junk food and soda because it's more convenient. Those kind of parents are of their right mind, and they are doing great harm and putting their child at risk because they are lazy and selfish... not because they are mentally ill and incapable of making good parenting decisions. :(