Hot Stove

iuparrothead · Post by **iuparrothead** » December 17, 2004 1:37 pm

I'm a comedian aren't I?

Ilph · Post by **Ilph** » December 17, 2004 1:40 pm

Yeah, that is pretty funny.

iuparrothead · Post by **iuparrothead** » December 17, 2004 1:41 pm

I don't care... I will continue to pleasantly delude myself...

mexcooker12 · Post by **mexcooker12** » December 17, 2004 1:53 pm

If the yanks somehow figure out a way to get Johnson they could be near unstoppable. Word is that they will eventually get Beltran which will improve their defense. A rotation of Johnson Mussina Pavano and Wright seems pretty nasty to me.

mexcooker12 · Post by **mexcooker12** » December 17, 2004 1:56 pm

I also believe Beltre could be a mistake for the M's. He has only had one good year in the 5 years he has played ball and coincedently was the year he was due up for a new contract. I think hes still real young (25-26?) so maybe those first 4 years could be chalked up to youth, but a lot of baseball experts dont think this is a great deal. Also Sexson has proven to be very injury prone. We'll see how it all works out.

BottleofRum · Post by **BottleofRum** » December 17, 2004 4:00 pm

mexcooker12 wrote:If the yanks somehow figure out a way to get Johnson they could be near unstoppable. Word is that they will eventually get Beltran which will improve their defense. A rotation of Johnson Mussina Pavano and Wright seems pretty nasty to me.

They were saying the same thing last year when they got ARod. All you heard was about the Yankees line up 1-9 and how unstopable they would be.........

RJ while a good pitcher when he was in the AL didn't become the force he is until he went to the NL, Pavano had one good year and has Jeff Suppan written all over him, Jaret Wright is a stiff who got lucky in a contract year. 3 NL pitchers who feast on the weak hitting NL teams....... As St Louis found out the AL is a far better hitting league.

mexcooker12 · Post by **mexcooker12** » December 17, 2004 4:09 pm

BottleofRum wrote:
mexcooker12 wrote:If the yanks somehow figure out a way to get Johnson they could be near unstoppable. Word is that they will eventually get Beltran which will improve their defense. A rotation of Johnson Mussina Pavano and Wright seems pretty nasty to me.

They were saying the same thing last year when they got ARod. All you heard was about the Yankees line up 1-9 and how unstopable they would be.........

RJ while a good pitcher when he was in the AL didn't become the force he is until he went to the NL, Pavano had one good year and has Jeff Suppan written all over him, Jaret Wright is a stiff who got lucky in a contract year. 3 NL pitchers who feast on the weak hitting NL teams....... As St Louis found out the AL is a far better hitting league.

You musnt watch a lot of baseball becuase when he pitched with the Mariners Johnson was considered one of the best pitchers in the league. And it they didnt lose this year because of their hitting it was their Defense and Pitching. Beltran would address the defense issue, and I would say Johnson is an upgrade from anything they had last year. I am not completely sold on Pavano myself but he is only going to be their 3rd pitcher. I would be willing to be hes one of the better 3rd pitchers in the leauge. Also all we need is 10 wins out of Wright. I think thats not unreachable. And Wright pitched in the AL (Indians) before he played for the Braves and Johnson also spent more years in the AL than NL, so Pavano is really the only NL pitcher

iuparrothead · Post by **iuparrothead** » December 17, 2004 4:33 pm

Now there are rumors all over ESPN about a Cubs/O's trade involving Sosa!

BottleofRum · Post by **BottleofRum** » December 18, 2004 1:00 am

mexcooker12 wrote:
BottleofRum wrote:
mexcooker12 wrote:If the yanks somehow figure out a way to get Johnson they could be near unstoppable. Word is that they will eventually get Beltran which will improve their defense. A rotation of Johnson Mussina Pavano and Wright seems pretty nasty to me.

They were saying the same thing last year when they got ARod. All you heard was about the Yankees line up 1-9 and how unstopable they would be.........

RJ while a good pitcher when he was in the AL didn't become the force he is until he went to the NL, Pavano had one good year and has Jeff Suppan written all over him, Jaret Wright is a stiff who got lucky in a contract year. 3 NL pitchers who feast on the weak hitting NL teams....... As St Louis found out the AL is a far better hitting league.

You musnt watch a lot of baseball becuase when he pitched with the Mariners Johnson was considered one of the best pitchers in the league. And it they didnt lose this year because of their hitting it was their Defense and Pitching. Beltran would address the defense issue, and I would say Johnson is an upgrade from anything they had last year. I am not completely sold on Pavano myself but he is only going to be their 3rd pitcher. I would be willing to be hes one of the better 3rd pitchers in the leauge. Also all we need is 10 wins out of Wright. I think thats not unreachable. And Wright pitched in the AL (Indians) before he played for the Braves and Johnson also spent more years in the AL than NL, so Pavano is really the only NL pitcher

Your right I musnt watch allot of baseball

I never said Johnson was not a good AL pitcher! I said he didn't become a great pitcher until he went to the NL. IF he comes to the AL he will have to face far better DH filled line-ups than he ever faced in the NL. Last March everyone wanted to give the championship to the Yankees because they got ARod, they said NY had no holes, they were solid 1-9

Vasquez gave NY 14 wins last year. How many wins will Johnson give NY? At most 18-20?? Jaret Wright is a stiff he won 15 games last year and as I said he lucked out in a contract year. From 1999-2003 he went 19-29 with a 7.00+ ERA..... last year was the exception, he will crack in NY.... Pavano is a better pitcher than Wright, he may be a Suppan clone but he is still better than Wright.

Back to your original point that I musnt watch a lot of baseball........ and to blow a hole in your theory - - Johnson spent just as many season in the AL (9) as he has in the NL (9)!

mexcooker12 · Post by **mexcooker12** » December 18, 2004 9:58 am

You musnt know how to count either because he played 10 seasons in the AL and 9 in the NL. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/s ... atsId=4288 While you are there take a look at 1992 through 1997, if those arent GREAT pitching numbers than I guess I dont know what are.

Ilph · Post by **Ilph** » December 18, 2004 6:53 pm

iuparrothead wrote:Now there are rumors all over ESPN about a Cubs/O's trade involving Sosa!

ESPN this morning had a 5-6 minute segment on what went wrong with the Chicago - Sosa relationship. It was pretty good

Ilph · Post by **Ilph** » December 19, 2004 11:48 am

From ESPN.com

By Phil Rogers
Special to ESPN.com
If a Sammy Sosa trade is imminent, it remains a closely guarded secret. But Jim Hendry, the Cubs' brazen general manager, tells reporters he feels better about the chance to unload his $25-million commitment to Sosa than he did a couple weeks ago.

"The climate seems to have changed quite a bit since I left the GM meetings," Hendry said, referring to a November gathering. "There are five or six clubs with a level of interest.''

What has changed?

The biggest change is there's now less supply to fill the demand for run-producing hitters. Adrian Beltre, Troy Glaus, Richie Sexson, Edgar Renteria, Steve Finley, Jeff Kent, Corey Koskie, Jermaine Dye, Nomar Garciaparra and Richard Hidalgo are off the market. That means teams still looking to make an offensive impact, primarily the Mets, Baltimore and Los Angeles, are left with a choice:

Scott Boras or Sosa.

Sosa, who would cost a team somewhere south of $40 million over two years -- depending on whether agent Adam Katz and Sosa alter the 2006 contract option, which is guaranteed if he's traded, and if the Cubs take back contracts or include cash in a trade -- might be the lesser of the two evils. The thought of getting Sosa cheaply has prompted even cash-poor teams like Kansas City and Washington to make inquires.

It's safe to say those teams aren't tying up Boras' telephone.

With the exception of Carlos Delgado and Moises Alou, Boras controls the best free-agent hitters still available. He is seeking deals ranging from five to 10 years for Carlos Beltran and J.D. Drew, and on Thursday got a five-year, $64 million deal for Beltre. Boras also wants teams to ignore Magglio Ordonez's decision to have his injured left knee repaired in Europe, with a procedure not yet approved in the United States.

Ordonez is the only one of these Boras clients who didn't have a bust-out season in 2004. But among the available hitters, only Beltran and Delgado (who is seeking a four-year deal at $16 million a year) have been more productive the past three years.

Other than Dusty Baker, perhaps no one would more like to see Sosa moved than Boras. He seems to be buying time in the Beltran sweepstakes as he waits for the Cubs to jump to the front with an offer that knocks Houston out of the water. Tim Purpura, the Astros' general manager, says he is fully prepared to let this saga run until Jan. 8, which is the last day for teams to offer arbitration.

It's possible for the Cubs to squeeze Sosa and Beltran onto the payroll, but Hendry would like to have the decks cleared to chase Beltran, with Drew as a secondary target.

Here are a few scenarios that could allow him to do that:

Sosa to the Mets for Cliff Floyd
Pedro Martinez didn't come cheaply to the Mets. But that signing doesn't preclude the addition of more payroll. After all, he's only a $5-million a year upgrade over Al Leiter, who made $8 million last season.

If anything, the signing of Martinez should make it easier for GM Omar Minaya to scoop up Sosa. It is Martinez, not Sosa, who would carry the biggest expectations and get the most attention next spring training. That lessens the risk a little for Minaya, who is not counting on Sosa to be his signature move.

No one in baseball believes in Sosa more than Minaya and his top lieutenant, Sandy Johnson, who were the first to see his passion for the game and acknowledge his potential. They could give him the support he badly needs, rebuilding his confidence and allowing him to rehab his image.

This deal surfaced almost immediately after Minaya was hired as GM. It still makes a ton of sense. People who scoff about Sosa as damaged goods don't understand Sosa's pride and his bond with Johnson and Minaya. Those two guys could keep him in line for rookie manager Willie Randolph.

(The Mets would love to make a clean break with their faded icon, Mike Piazza. While he does not fit on the Cubs, Hendry might be able to even help broker that deal.)

Sosa to Baltimore for Jay Gibbons and Jorge Julio
The Orioles get a second star to play alongside Miguel Tejada. The Cubs get some needed balance. Sosa gets a chance to hit in a park that suits him, with a chance to perhaps sign a long-term contract after 2005 that puts him in place for his run at the career home run record.

Sosa and third baseman-outfielder Dave Kelton to Los Angeles for Shawn Green
This doesn't bring a lot of salary relief for the Cubs, as Green, who is part of the proposed three-team trade involving the Dodgers, Yankees and Diamondbacks, will get $16 million in 2005, but it balances the lineup and keeps the Cubs from having to pay a $4.5 million buyout after the season. For the Dodgers, it opens first base for Hee Seop Choi.

GM Paul DePodesta also will have to weigh the long-term risk over the flexibility he'd get from having Sosa only through 2006. The Dodgers might be gun-shy because of the lack of production from Todd Hundley and Fred McGriff, Cubs castoffs who sunk the Dan Evans regime.

Sosa to the Yankees for Kevin Brown
Rather than get caught up in the Beltran bidding, which would mean a salary commitment in 2006 and beyond to almost half a billion dollars, the Yankees could add a respected bat who is signed for only two years. At some point, owner George Steinbrenner is going to run into serious issues with MLB's 60-40 debt equity rules. The Yankees would love to move Brown, a goat in Game 7 of the ALCS against Boston. He could join the Cubs' rotation or the cast of candidates to close. If his back is healthy, he could fit right in on baseball's most powerful staff.

Sosa to Kansas City in a three-way deal that sends Mike Sweeney to the Mets and Floyd to the Cubs
This is a long-shot deal (would the Mets want Sweeney at $12.5 million for three more years?), but the Royals are dying for an impact player. The lure to Sosa is a chance to play for Dominican manager Tony Pena and be reunited with Jeff Pentland, who was the Cubs' hitting coach during Sosa's best years.

Phil Rogers is the national baseball writer for the Chicago Tribune, which has a Web site at www.chicagosports.com.

CaptainP · Post by **CaptainP** » December 19, 2004 9:57 pm

Consider me OFF the "trust Billy Beane" bandwagon. Trading Hudson AND Mulder? And getting NOTHING for either? Wow. The Braves and Cardinals fans must be dancing in the streets right now.

I should call my brother Michael. He's an A's fan AND a Cardinals fan....

mexcooker12 · Post by **mexcooker12** » December 20, 2004 10:06 am

I hate the Red Sox but I must admit I think that Matt Clement signing is a great deal for them. His record last year did not indicate how well he pitched. His K's and ERA were both very good and I wish that my Yankees had made a run at him. Needless to say I still like the rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Wright, Brown versus Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield, Arroyo

RAGTOP · Post by **RAGTOP** » December 20, 2004 10:17 am

mexcooker12 wrote:I hate the Red Sox but I must admit I think that Matt Clement signing is a great deal for them. His record last year did not indicate how well he pitched. His K's and ERA were both very good and I wish that my Yankees had made a run at him. Needless to say I still like the rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Wright, Brown versus Schilling, Clement, Wells, Wakefield, Arroyo

I will laugh and laugh and laugh when the Yankees 200+ million dollar payroll comes up short again.

and by the way the Johnson deal still isn't done...

mexcooker12 · Post by **mexcooker12** » December 20, 2004 10:37 am

The main reason the yanks couldnt get it done last year was pitching, so if they solidfy that this year than I think they have as good a chance as anyone. And dont forget that the Red Sox arent exactly the Royals when it comes to payroll. They had the highest payroll of any team to ever win the world series.

RAGTOP · Post by **RAGTOP** » December 20, 2004 10:44 am

mexcooker12 wrote:The main reason the yanks couldnt get it done last year was pitching, so if they solidfy that this year than I think they have as good a chance as anyone. And dont forget that the Red Sox arent exactly the Royals when it comes to payroll. They had the highest payroll of any team to ever win the world series.

and it was still 60 million behind the Yankees

I will laugh and laugh and laugh

Ilph · Post by **Ilph** » December 20, 2004 10:48 am

CaptainP wrote:Consider me OFF the "trust Billy Beane" bandwagon. Trading Hudson AND Mulder? And getting NOTHING for either? Wow. The Braves and Cardinals fans must be dancing in the streets right now.

We are. But Billy Beane has quite a history of making calls that others don't agree with to have them pay off later down the stretch....

CaptainP · Post by **CaptainP** » December 20, 2004 11:00 am

mexcooker12 wrote: Needless to say I still like the rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Wright, Brown

3 starters aged 39 or olders, 2 of which looked their age last year (Moose, Brown), 2 who are coming off of 1 good year following careers of disappointment & underachieving (Wright, Pavano). Johnson is still great, but for how long?

mexcooker12 · Post by **mexcooker12** » December 20, 2004 11:21 am

CaptainP wrote:
mexcooker12 wrote: Needless to say I still like the rotation of Johnson, Mussina, Pavano, Wright, Brown
3 starters aged 39 or olders, 2 of which looked their age last year (Moose, Brown), 2 who are coming off of 1 good year following careers of disappointment & underachieving (Wright, Pavano). Johnson is still great, but for how long?

Johnson is 41, Mussina is 36, Pavano is 29, Wright is 28, and Brown is 39.

Compare that with Schilling is 38, Wells is 41, wakefield is 38, arroyo is 27 and clement is 30.

Combined the Sox rotation is 1 year older than the Yanks. Granted Wakefield throws a knuckleball so he could probably pitch till he's 50. The one thing in common about these guys is that they are workhorses, Johnson, Mussina, Wells and Schilling are all able to pitch a lot of innings.

I dont see any reason why the Yankees cant get at least 2 solid years from Johnson, he hasnt really showed any signs of letting up.