NYCLU sues city over subway searches

[Sam]

I have been waiting for this to happen since the policy was implemented...

Are we really giving up Freedom for everyone in the name of safety???
After all it is mass transportation ...just as flying is and bags are searched when a person fkys commercial airlines.

Granted I can see this being in question, "of everyone carring a backpack on the street" being stopped....but this is mass transportation.... What should be done??? Not seach anyone and let the potential deaths and maimings and damage and fear occur???

**************************************************************

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/cri ... -breaking2

NYCLU sues city over subway searches

BY JOSHUA ROBIN and DAN JANISON
STAFF WRITERS with THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

August 4, 2005, 2:54 PM EDT

The New York Civil Liberties Union today filed suit against the city to keep police from searching the bags of passengers entering the subway, organization lawyers said.

The suit, which filed in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, will claimed that the two-week old policy violates constitutional guarantees of equal protection and prohibitions against unlawful searches and seizures, while doing almost nothing to shield the city from terrorism.

It argues that the measure also allows the possibility for racial profiling, even though officers are ordered to randomly screen passengers.

"While concerns about terrorism of course justify -- indeed, require -- aggressive police tactics, those concerns cannot justify the Police Department's unprecedented policy of subjecting millions of innocent people to suspicionless searches," states the suit.

[Among five plaintiffs was Brendan MacWade, 32, of Brooklyn, who escaped the World Trade Center towers after they were struck by hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001.

"I want to catch terrorists as much as any politicians or officials but this policy does not work," he said.

Another plaintiff, Joseph Gehring Jr., who identified himself as a lifelong Republican, said he was disappointed to find subway riders accepting the police inspections so docilely.

"Here we were giving up our rights to what was obviously a publicity stunt," he said. "We are becoming accustomed to having our civil liberties taken away."

Gail Donoghue, a city lawyer said the city's random subway searches "meets all appropriate legal requirements and preserves the important balance between protecting our city and preserving individual rights."

She added, "We believe the NYCLU is shortsighted in failing to recognize this. We are confident our position will prevail in court."

The city is named as a defendant, along with the police department and Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

Thursday, before the suit was released, Kelly said that the searches were "just one more layer, one more tool."

The civil liberties union has criticized the searches as over-reaching since Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced the measure on July 21, after terrorists targeted London's mass transit system for the second time in two weeks. It also calls the stops ineffective because terrorists can walk through entrances where police are not screening.

The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld the right of law enforcement to conduct random searches, said Barry Kamins, a professor of criminal procedure at Fordham and Brooklyn law schools. But it found that those checks can be considered unlawful if their primary purpose is for law enforcement, such as searching for evidence of a crime. Rather, police must use the stops chiefly to preserve public safety, he said.

The suit comes as elected officials continue to tussled over racial profiling. Nine City Council members Thursday asked Bloomberg to direct officers to note the racial or ethnic identity of people searched.

The call came after a city councilman and a state assemblyman suggested young Arabs should be targeted for searches to prevent terror attacks.

Robert Lawson, a Bloomberg spokesman, said that the police already have adequate safeguards. "The mayor has repeatedly stated since the start of this policy that there would be zero tolerance for racial profiling," Lawson added.

Staff writer Daryl Khan contributed to this story.

[The Lost Manatee]

One of the issues that has to be addressed is if it is truly random or if it is solely up to the officer in question. If it isn't truly random then it becomes necessary for everyone to be subjected to a search of some sort to avoid racial profiling. I know many people say "why search grandma or young white kids, they weren't the one's hijacking? You should only search people who appear to be Middle Eastern." There are several problems with that, see Timothy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph as examples of sick individuals who don't appear to be Middle Eastern. Or the 3 or 4 year old picked up at the Orlando Airport with a gun sewn into a teddy bear. This is why it needs to be completely random.

Also, is it a search for security purposes only or is it a search for anything that is illegal, such as drugs, etc. There is a lawsuit against the TSA because TSA agents have been searching for more then items on their banned list. As I understand it, the issue is that if an arrest is made for something other then a security related item then the police search was made without probable cause. I'm sure that an attorney could explain the problems there.



And lastly, does this really make us any safer. The airline screening has been shown to be less then perfect, repeatedly and has yet to address air freight which is stowed in the cargo bins below the passenger cabin. I'm all for safety however I don't want to live in a police stay, Utah is too close to that for my comfort already.

[Sam]

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that profiling is a tool...it is used by doctors, insurance companies, Police use profiling for Drunk drivers, and more than I can care to count. Not legal ?? okies take it to court and fight it...most people do not have the money to fight it...No sympathy for a drunk driver....okies but if the driver was doing nothing wrong and was not showing any signs of being intoxicated, why would that be ok to bust bur not someone carrying a ckilo of horse or coke for profiling???

No one seems to have any problem with profiling being used to catch a serial arsonist, or a serial rapist or killer ....do they?? Insurance companies profile their clients before they accept or reject them.
Advertising profiles people all the time..... take a look at a warranty card on most any product you buy.... why do you think they are asking those questions???
A doctor profiles an illness in order to treat it.....

Yet lets add the word racial here and automatically it becomes a bad thing.... well let me ask you...if profiling would have prevented the destruction of the WTC towers I and II and saved all of the lives of the peopel involved on 9/11..... would you have allowed it to be used or would you let the death,sestruction, and carnage happen?

I still believe nothing is wrong when profiling is used PROPERLY I do have a problem with it being abused though.

I do have a problem with it NOT ALLOWED to be used against the Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists.....okies so we waste our time on searching nursing mothers and strip searching 80 year old grand mothers....WE KNOW WHO THE THREAT IS....PROFILE THE BLEEP OUT OF THEM. Most people would never know they are being profiled anyway. And BY ALL MEANS KEEP UP THE RANDOM SEARCHES....

[aeroparrot]

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that profiling is a tool...it is used by doctors, insurance companies, Police use profiling for Drunk drivers, and more than I can care to count. Not legal ?? okies take it to court and fight it...most people do not have the money to fight it...No sympathy for a drunk driver....okies but if the driver was doing nothing wrong and was not showing any signs of being intoxicated, why would that be ok to bust bur not someone carrying a ckilo of horse or coke for profiling???

No one seems to have any problem with profiling being used to catch a serial arsonist, or a serial rapist or killer ....do they?? Insurance companies profile their clients before they accept or reject them.
Advertising profiles people all the time..... take a look at a warranty card on most any product you buy.... why do you think they are asking those questions???
A doctor profiles an illness in order to treat it.....

Yet lets add the word racial here and automatically it becomes a bad thing.... well let me ask you...if profiling would have prevented the destruction of the WTC towers I and II and saved all of the lives of the peopel involved on 9/11..... would you have allowed it to be used or would you let the death,sestruction, and carnage happen?

I still believe nothing is wrong when profiling is used PROPERLY I do have a problem with it being abused though.

I do have a problem with it NOT ALLOWED to be used against the Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists.....okies so we waste our time on searching nursing mothers and strip searching 80 year old grand mothers....WE KNOW WHO THE THREAT IS....PROFILE THE BLEEP OUT OF THEM. Most people would never know they are being profiled anyway. And BY ALL MEANS KEEP UP THE RANDOM SEARCHES....

Well, the only issue is that with the Pakistanis who did the bombing in London are probably going to make life for me difficult. I am a Hindu Indian BUT Pakistanis and Indians come from the same race so I would not be looked highly on.

[AlbatrossFlyer]

everything i've read says the police search every 5th or 10th person. also they will arrest you if they find any contraband.

considering the the most prolific form of bombings is either the car bomb or the suicide bomber just walking into a crowded area on a sidewalk. why don't the police just start random patdowns on the sidewalk or stopping cars to search them?

[jonesbeach10]

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that profiling is a tool...it is used by doctors, insurance companies, Police use profiling for Drunk drivers, and more than I can care to count. Not legal ?? okies take it to court and fight it...most people do not have the money to fight it...No sympathy for a drunk driver....okies but if the driver was doing nothing wrong and was not showing any signs of being intoxicated, why would that be ok to bust bur not someone carrying a ckilo of horse or coke for profiling???

No one seems to have any problem with profiling being used to catch a serial arsonist, or a serial rapist or killer ....do they?? Insurance companies profile their clients before they accept or reject them.
Advertising profiles people all the time..... take a look at a warranty card on most any product you buy.... why do you think they are asking those questions???
A doctor profiles an illness in order to treat it.....

Yet lets add the word racial here and automatically it becomes a bad thing.... well let me ask you...if profiling would have prevented the destruction of the WTC towers I and II and saved all of the lives of the peopel involved on 9/11..... would you have allowed it to be used or would you let the death,sestruction, and carnage happen?

I still believe nothing is wrong when profiling is used PROPERLY I do have a problem with it being abused though.

I do have a problem with it NOT ALLOWED to be used against the Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists.....okies so we waste our time on searching nursing mothers and strip searching 80 year old grand mothers....WE KNOW WHO THE THREAT IS....PROFILE THE BLEEP OUT OF THEM. Most people would never know they are being profiled anyway. And BY ALL MEANS KEEP UP THE RANDOM SEARCHES....

Well, the only issue is that with the Pakistanis who did the bombing in London are probably going to make life for me difficult. I am a Hindu Indian BUT Pakistanis and Indians come from the same race so I would not be looked highly on.

I don't think I knew that. I have a couple of Hindu friends. One of them is over in India right now.

[ragtopW]

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that profiling is a tool...it is used by doctors, insurance companies, Police use profiling for Drunk drivers, and more than I can care to count. Not legal ?? okies take it to court and fight it...most people do not have the money to fight it...No sympathy for a drunk driver....okies but if the driver was doing nothing wrong and was not showing any signs of being intoxicated, why would that be ok to bust bur not someone carrying a ckilo of horse or coke for profiling???

No one seems to have any problem with profiling being used to catch a serial arsonist, or a serial rapist or killer ....do they?? Insurance companies profile their clients before they accept or reject them.
Advertising profiles people all the time..... take a look at a warranty card on most any product you buy.... why do you think they are asking those questions???
A doctor profiles an illness in order to treat it.....

Yet lets add the word racial here and automatically it becomes a bad thing.... well let me ask you...if profiling would have prevented the destruction of the WTC towers I and II and saved all of the lives of the peopel involved on 9/11..... would you have allowed it to be used or would you let the death,sestruction, and carnage happen?

I still believe nothing is wrong when profiling is used PROPERLY I do have a problem with it being abused though.

I do have a problem with it NOT ALLOWED to be used against the Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists.....okies so we waste our time on searching nursing mothers and strip searching 80 year old grand mothers....WE KNOW WHO THE THREAT IS....PROFILE THE BLEEP OUT OF THEM. Most people would never know they are being profiled anyway. And BY ALL MEANS KEEP UP THE RANDOM SEARCHES....

Well, the only issue is that with the Pakistanis who did the bombing in London are probably going to make life for me difficult. I am a Hindu Indian BUT Pakistanis and Indians come from the same race so I would not be looked highly on.

I know Quite a Few OF both races also Muslim Indians
and Pakistanis and some Sikhs too..
I grew up (OK so I never grew up ) In Northern California

Some of the nicest people around
So what I want to know.....

How (from looking) can you tell a Muslim from a Sikh from a Hindu
From a Baptist.. ????

[aeroparrot]

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that profiling is a tool...it is used by doctors, insurance companies, Police use profiling for Drunk drivers, and more than I can care to count. Not legal ?? okies take it to court and fight it...most people do not have the money to fight it...No sympathy for a drunk driver....okies but if the driver was doing nothing wrong and was not showing any signs of being intoxicated, why would that be ok to bust bur not someone carrying a ckilo of horse or coke for profiling???

No one seems to have any problem with profiling being used to catch a serial arsonist, or a serial rapist or killer ....do they?? Insurance companies profile their clients before they accept or reject them.
Advertising profiles people all the time..... take a look at a warranty card on most any product you buy.... why do you think they are asking those questions???
A doctor profiles an illness in order to treat it.....

Yet lets add the word racial here and automatically it becomes a bad thing.... well let me ask you...if profiling would have prevented the destruction of the WTC towers I and II and saved all of the lives of the peopel involved on 9/11..... would you have allowed it to be used or would you let the death,sestruction, and carnage happen?

I still believe nothing is wrong when profiling is used PROPERLY I do have a problem with it being abused though.

I do have a problem with it NOT ALLOWED to be used against the Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists.....okies so we waste our time on searching nursing mothers and strip searching 80 year old grand mothers....WE KNOW WHO THE THREAT IS....PROFILE THE BLEEP OUT OF THEM. Most people would never know they are being profiled anyway. And BY ALL MEANS KEEP UP THE RANDOM SEARCHES....

Well, the only issue is that with the Pakistanis who did the bombing in London are probably going to make life for me difficult. I am a Hindu Indian BUT Pakistanis and Indians come from the same race so I would not be looked highly on.

I know Quite a Few OF both races also Muslim Indians
and Pakistanis and some Sikhs too..
I grew up (OK so I never grew up ) In Northern California

Some of the nicest people around
So what I want to know.....

How (from looking) can you tell a Muslim from a Sikh from a Hindu
From a Baptist.. ????

Well, it depends on the type of Muslim. There are those who wear the head dress and those who don't. I am talking about those who don't, like those in London who did the bombings. That will make my life difficult. For those who do, you could obviously tell. The type of head dress that they wear is different than those worn by Sikhs, and even some Hindus. It is difficult to explain in words.... Here is a picture of what a Sikh would look like.



Generally speaking, here is the headdress of a Muslim (even though there are slight differences depending on the race.



Here is a Hindu headdress (very rarely worn) but it signifies class.

[Sam]

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that profiling is a tool...it is used by doctors, insurance companies, Police use profiling for Drunk drivers, and more than I can care to count. Not legal ?? okies take it to court and fight it...most people do not have the money to fight it...No sympathy for a drunk driver....okies but if the driver was doing nothing wrong and was not showing any signs of being intoxicated, why would that be ok to bust bur not someone carrying a ckilo of horse or coke for profiling???

No one seems to have any problem with profiling being used to catch a serial arsonist, or a serial rapist or killer ....do they?? Insurance companies profile their clients before they accept or reject them.
Advertising profiles people all the time..... take a look at a warranty card on most any product you buy.... why do you think they are asking those questions???
A doctor profiles an illness in order to treat it.....

Yet lets add the word racial here and automatically it becomes a bad thing.... well let me ask you...if profiling would have prevented the destruction of the WTC towers I and II and saved all of the lives of the peopel involved on 9/11..... would you have allowed it to be used or would you let the death,sestruction, and carnage happen?

I still believe nothing is wrong when profiling is used PROPERLY I do have a problem with it being abused though.

I do have a problem with it NOT ALLOWED to be used against the Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists.....okies so we waste our time on searching nursing mothers and strip searching 80 year old grand mothers....WE KNOW WHO THE THREAT IS....PROFILE THE BLEEP OUT OF THEM. Most people would never know they are being profiled anyway. And BY ALL MEANS KEEP UP THE RANDOM SEARCHES....

Well, the only issue is that with the Pakistanis who did the bombing in London are probably going to make life for me difficult. I am a Hindu Indian BUT Pakistanis and Indians come from the same race so I would not be looked highly on.

I know Quite a Few OF both races also Muslim Indians
and Pakistanis and some Sikhs too..
I grew up (OK so I never grew up ) In Northern California

Some of the nicest people around
So what I want to know.....

How (from looking) can you tell a Muslim from a Sikh from a Hindu
From a Baptist.. ????

I know of several people from the Middle east and India....that I consider friends...all of them are very nice and friendly polite people.

My main question is this....IF profiling can help find a serial arsonist/killer/rapist or whatever and is used in so many various other different ways...and no one has objections, then why should it not be used as the tool that it is, in helping find the terrs? Example: MOST serial killers are white males within a certain age group...does that make profiling to be racist and non effective in tracking them down?
Obviously not every white male is a serial arsonist/killer...etc. Profiling does NOT say, that any certain person is a criminal or a terr other badguy...just for whatever reason, the profile did match...and somethings were or are in common with the people and the killer/arsonist/ whatever.....
Profiling is simply a tool that is used and like any other tool, and it must be used properly and for it's intended purpose...or else it is abuse....

[aeroparrot]

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that profiling is a tool...it is used by doctors, insurance companies, Police use profiling for Drunk drivers, and more than I can care to count. Not legal ?? okies take it to court and fight it...most people do not have the money to fight it...No sympathy for a drunk driver....okies but if the driver was doing nothing wrong and was not showing any signs of being intoxicated, why would that be ok to bust bur not someone carrying a ckilo of horse or coke for profiling???

No one seems to have any problem with profiling being used to catch a serial arsonist, or a serial rapist or killer ....do they?? Insurance companies profile their clients before they accept or reject them.
Advertising profiles people all the time..... take a look at a warranty card on most any product you buy.... why do you think they are asking those questions???
A doctor profiles an illness in order to treat it.....

Yet lets add the word racial here and automatically it becomes a bad thing.... well let me ask you...if profiling would have prevented the destruction of the WTC towers I and II and saved all of the lives of the peopel involved on 9/11..... would you have allowed it to be used or would you let the death,sestruction, and carnage happen?

I still believe nothing is wrong when profiling is used PROPERLY I do have a problem with it being abused though.

I do have a problem with it NOT ALLOWED to be used against the Fundamentalist Muslim Terrorists.....okies so we waste our time on searching nursing mothers and strip searching 80 year old grand mothers....WE KNOW WHO THE THREAT IS....PROFILE THE BLEEP OUT OF THEM. Most people would never know they are being profiled anyway. And BY ALL MEANS KEEP UP THE RANDOM SEARCHES....

Well, the only issue is that with the Pakistanis who did the bombing in London are probably going to make life for me difficult. I am a Hindu Indian BUT Pakistanis and Indians come from the same race so I would not be looked highly on.

I know Quite a Few OF both races also Muslim Indians
and Pakistanis and some Sikhs too..
I grew up (OK so I never grew up ) In Northern California

Some of the nicest people around
So what I want to know.....

How (from looking) can you tell a Muslim from a Sikh from a Hindu
From a Baptist.. ????

I know of several people from the Middle east and India....that I consider friends...all of them are very nice and friendly polite people.

My main question is this....IF profiling can help find a serial arsonist/killer/rapist or whatever and is used in so many various other different ways...and no one has objections, then why should it not be used as the tool that it is, in helping find the terrs? Example: MOST serial killers are white males within a certain age group...does that make profiling to be racist and non effective in tracking them down?
Obviously not every white male is a serial arsonist/killer...etc. Profiling does NOT say, that any certain person is a criminal or a terr other badguy...just for whatever reason, the profile did match...and somethings were or are in common with the people and the killer/arsonist/ whatever.....
Profiling is simply a tool that is used and like any other tool, and it must be used properly and for it's intended purpose...or else it is abuse....

IF it can be carried out in a way that will not cause undo grief, then maybe I will support it. Remember, when the attacks happened 4 years ago, a few Sikhs were killed afterwards just because they wore a turban and ingrates mistook them for a Muslim.

[Sam]

IF it can be carried out in a way that will not cause undo grief, then maybe I will support it. Remember, when the attacks happened 4 years ago, a few Sikhs were killed afterwards just because they wore a turban and ingrates mistook them for a Muslim.

Yes I do remember but that was not profiling...........that was idiots doing what they do best.

I was in the USAF when the Iranians over ran/ took the US Emabassy in Iran....several Saudi students got beaten up pretty badly in town and off base, by local citizens. The Saudis had been coming there for years., more less to learn English and other things. I had the pleasure of meeting and talking with several of them and made some friends that could play a decent game chess and have some conversations... The pressures on them to excel were quite unreal...and we shared alot about each other's countries and cultures. They were good people and harmed no one....but the people off base had no clue....

I do not want to see anyone abused, generally people are quickly cleared and never know they are or have been profiled. I will grant and allow the system can be abused.....but because several people abuse a tool does not mean that the tool is of no value or that everyone abuses the tool.

It is not a "cure all" to find every foreign terr...it is only one tool of many to aid in finding them...and preventing future destruction/death and harm.
Sure the terrs can adapt and modify and change the tactics and strategy they use ... and as they do so we must do so as well. Would people be inconvienced yes! Would people be anymore inconvienced than they are now???? I do not know....

I do know it makes more sense to concentrate efforts on those that are the actual or suspected terrs than to strip search 80 year old women....But I do agree that the RANDOM searches should be maintained.

As far as illeagle items being found during such searches.....I don't know what the answer is to that....I know it can happen, but the legality of it is what I do not know...

[ragtopW]

I know Quite a Few OF both races also Muslim Indians
and Pakistanis and some Sikhs too..
I grew up (OK so I never grew up ) In Northern California

Some of the nicest people around
So what I want to know.....

How (from looking) can you tell a Muslim from a Sikh from a Hindu
From a Baptist.. ????

Well, it depends on the type of Muslim. There are those who wear the head dress and those who don't. I am talking about those who don't, like those in London who did the bombings. That will make my life difficult. For those who do, you could obviously tell. The type of head dress that they wear is different than those worn by Sikhs, and even some Hindus. It is difficult to explain in words.... Here is a picture of what a Sikh would look like.



Generally speaking, here is the headdress of a Muslim (even though there are slight differences depending on the race.



Here is a Hindu headdress (very rarely worn) but it signifies class.

[/quote]


Quite right But I lived where there are many third
Generation and above Sikhs,Muslims, and Hindus
the younger crowd do not so much wear any headgear (unless you count
the Laker caps)
that is where I was basing my question
Yes on Special days and weddings and such but normaly
again where I lived above Sactamento most never wore
anything

[aeroparrot]

Quite right But I lived where there are many third
Generation and above Sikhs,Muslims, and Hindus
the younger crowd do not so much wear any headgear (unless you count
the Laker caps)
that is where I was basing my question
Yes on Special days and weddings and such but normaly
again where I lived above Sactamento most never wore
anything

That's where I was coming from originally too when I said that I would get profiled because of the skin color.

[ragtopW]

Quite right But I lived where there are many third
Generation and above Sikhs,Muslims, and Hindus
the younger crowd do not so much wear any headgear (unless you count
the Laker caps)
that is where I was basing my question
Yes on Special days and weddings and such but normaly
again where I lived above Sactamento most never wore
anything

That's where I was coming from originally too when I said that I would get profiled because of the skin color.

yes and I was agreeing with you

BTW not for Skin color but I get profiled a lot
for my Haircut

[aeroparrot]

Quite right But I lived where there are many third
Generation and above Sikhs,Muslims, and Hindus
the younger crowd do not so much wear any headgear (unless you count
the Laker caps)
that is where I was basing my question
Yes on Special days and weddings and such but normaly
again where I lived above Sactamento most never wore
anything

That's where I was coming from originally too when I said that I would get profiled because of the skin color.

yes and I was agreeing with you

BTW not for Skin color but I get profiled a lot
for my Haircut

Why do I have the song Signs in my head?

[ragtopW]

Quite right But I lived where there are many third
Generation and above Sikhs,Muslims, and Hindus
the younger crowd do not so much wear any headgear (unless you count
the Laker caps)
that is where I was basing my question
Yes on Special days and weddings and such but normaly
again where I lived above Sactamento most never wore
anything

That's where I was coming from originally too when I said that I would get profiled because of the skin color.

yes and I was agreeing with you

BTW not for Skin color but I get profiled a lot
for my Haircut

Why do I have the song Signs in my head?

mine isn't just long I shave the top and sides and let the Back grow..

[Sam]

As I said before it is simply a tool ... and like anyother tool when used properly for the job it is made to do..it normally works very well....when it is used for other purposes and abused.....well we know the results.

RR you brought up a valid point in a way. If Baptists/Methodists, etc., were the ones committing the terrorist acts...that would be part of the profile wouldn't it.....but in the profiling that is currently used say in catching serial arsonists,killers, rapists, etc... how does one know who is which??? It would go along with corroborating evidence...and whatever else the authorities use to catch them.

I have read of a case where a black male was wanted for a felony and the dispatchers that put out the BOLO were not allowed to say he as a black male or mention skin color because it was considered stereotyping or racist.