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ph4ever wrote:starting with the NO Government responsible for the levies; not researching and spending their money foolishly.

A lot of articles out there about NO local and state govt as well as Army Corps of Engineers repeatedly requesting funds for projects relating to the levys over the past several years but being offered significantly less because of other federal spending priorities.

Key Lime Lee wrote:

ph4ever wrote:starting with the NO Government responsible for the levies; not researching and spending their money foolishly.

A lot of articles out there about NO local and state govt as well as Army Corps of Engineers repeatedly requesting funds for projects relating to the levys over the past several years but being offered significantly less because of other federal spending priorities.

...like a $250 million dollar "bridge to nowhere" in Alaska.

[OPINION]

In my world, we'd be having fundraisers for the war in Iraq and my tax $$ cover the costs of US disaster relief, not the other way around.

[/OPINION]

I hear ya, Lee:

www.USAFbakesale.com

please order your brownies now
supplies are limited

Lightning Bolt wrote:

Tony5150RN wrote: ... this was a tri-disaster situation covering a large area. This type of scenario is something that FEMA has never dealt with before. Not only was there the storm itself, there was the flood (disaster # 2), and then the unrest in the city (disaster #3.) Unfortunately, the area that got the most media attention was New Orleans. The media failed to show the relief efforts that were proceeding, as early as Monday evening, in the rest of LA, Mississippi, and Alabama.

I can respect your perspective as a relief worker that you felt assistance was being handled, but...
I cannot buy, not for one moment, that this was a situation NEVER DEALT with before???
What about Hurrican Andrew? It was more surprisingly intense than Katrina. Didn't that relief mismanagement of '92 teach FEMA anything?
You could see this storm coming for DAYS!!!

When this is reviewed later, I'm sure the summation of this debacle will state,
"We were under-manned, and under-supplied". Where else have we heard that said lately?

This has been a management blunder unprecedented, and heads should roll

Actually, a lot was learned from Andrew. Prior to that storm, resources were never preactivated, and prestaged, out of harms way. In fact, I witnessed the lessons learned from Andrew, last year, after Hurricane Charley devastated my home town. The storm was over Friday night and the National Guard, Multiple Law Enforcement Agencies, FEMA, the Red Cross, etc. were rolling in early Saturday Morning. That's how it's supposed to work.

Like I stated before, this was very unique scenario due to many different factors and lessons are learned from every storm.

Tony5150RN wrote:

Lightning Bolt wrote:

Tony5150RN wrote: ... this was a tri-disaster situation covering a large area. This type of scenario is something that FEMA has never dealt with before. Not only was there the storm itself, there was the flood (disaster # 2), and then the unrest in the city (disaster #3.) Unfortunately, the area that got the most media attention was New Orleans. The media failed to show the relief efforts that were proceeding, as early as Monday evening, in the rest of LA, Mississippi, and Alabama.

I can respect your perspective as a relief worker that you felt assistance was being handled, but...
I cannot buy, not for one moment, that this was a situation NEVER DEALT with before???
What about Hurrican Andrew? It was more surprisingly intense than Katrina. Didn't that relief mismanagement of '92 teach FEMA anything?
You could see this storm coming for DAYS!!!

When this is reviewed later, I'm sure the summation of this debacle will state,
"We were under-manned, and under-supplied". Where else have we heard that said lately?

This has been a management blunder unprecedented, and heads should roll

Actually, a lot was learned from Andrew. Prior to that storm, resources were never preactivated, and prestaged, out of harms way. In fact, I witnessed the lessons learned from Andrew, last year, after Hurricane Charley devastated my home town. The storm was over Friday night and the National Guard, Multiple Law Enforcement Agencies, FEMA, the Red Cross, etc. were rolling in early Saturday Morning. That's how it's supposed to work.

Like I stated before, this was very unique scenario due to many different factors and lessons are learned from every storm.

I noticed your location in Punta Gorda and recalled last year's devastation.
The response to that situation had to have been heartening, at the very least.

I'm not hearing or seeing those stories this time around, and wonder, why?
Maybe some saw relief Tuesday, but have you heard who?
The media was able to witness a good deal, since they like to show off their reporters blowing like flags in a gale.
If it wasn't N.O., or Biloxi, or Gulfport seeing relief efforts, then I'd sure be happier if I knew of anyone who did.

This storm is quite different from Andrew. There wasn't the mass flooding and people stuck in their houses. Thats a big difference right there. Andrew didn't affect mulitple states. There of course was the looting and shoting at resuce workers after Andrew, but the groups of morons running around raping and killing is somthing to contend with. I'd say instead of hanging around and critizing the people who are helping and trying to help, get out there and do something. Organize a drive to collect supplies and money. These people are working their asses off to help and all they seem to be met with is critism. Maybe they didn't react as fast as you hoped, but they are out there doing their best, and for that we should say, hey thanks...you don't have to be here risking yourself, but thanks.

longlinergirl wrote:This storm is quite different from Andrew. There wasn't the mass flooding and people stuck in their houses. Thats a big difference right there. Andrew didn't affect mulitple states. There of course was the looting and shoting at resuce workers after Andrew, but the groups of morons running around raping and killing is somthing to contend with. I'd say instead of hanging around and critizing the people who are helping and trying to help, get out there and do something. Organize a drive to collect supplies and money. These people are working their asses off to help and all they seem to be met with is critism. Maybe they didn't react as fast as you hoped, but they are out there doing their best, and for that we should say, hey thanks...you don't have to be here risking yourself, but thanks.

I still think it's possibe to appreciate the efforts of the inviduals who devote themselves to help while questioning the competency of those who lead them.

Key Lime Lee wrote:

longlinergirl wrote:This storm is quite different from Andrew. There wasn't the mass flooding and people stuck in their houses. Thats a big difference right there. Andrew didn't affect mulitple states. There of course was the looting and shoting at resuce workers after Andrew, but the groups of morons running around raping and killing is somthing to contend with. I'd say instead of hanging around and critizing the people who are helping and trying to help, get out there and do something. Organize a drive to collect supplies and money. These people are working their asses off to help and all they seem to be met with is critism. Maybe they didn't react as fast as you hoped, but they are out there doing their best, and for that we should say, hey thanks...you don't have to be here risking yourself, but thanks.

I still think it's possibe to appreciate the efforts of the inviduals who devote themselves to help while questioning the competency of those who lead them.

Of course, I just see so much bitching and not nearly enough well thank god they are there trying to do something...and if I see one more thing about how its a racist thing, I think I may actually throw up

Lightning Bolt wrote:I noticed your location in Punta Gorda and recalled last year's devastation.
The response to that situation had to have been heartening, at the very least.

I'm not hearing or seeing those stories this time around, and wonder, why?
Maybe some saw relief Tuesday, but have you heard who?
The media was able to witness a good deal, since they like to show off their reporters blowing like flags in a gale.
If it wasn't N.O., or Biloxi, or Gulfport seeing relief efforts, then I'd sure be happier if I knew of anyone who did.

The areas that you've listed are some of the most Southern in States that sustained a large amount of damage. I don't know how many here have ever been in the middle of a Hurricanes Aftermath but from personal experience, I couldn't get out of my neighborhood for 2 days. Roads are blocked by debris (there was an entire house blocking the street here last year), downed powerlines, trees, etc. All this has to be cleared to get to affected areas. Unlike the National Guard, the majority of relief vehicles are everyday vehicles and are not designed to negotiate such obstacles. So, the areas that saw relief first were the more Northern areas. Oh, and New Orleans in itself was a logistical nightmare.

FEMA publishes a Citizen Preparedness guide that states over, and over, again that "citizens should have enough supplies on hand to be self-sufficient for 72 hours." There's a reason for that.

Since the first calls for assistance must start at the local level, lets see what type of Federal Assistande the Govenor of the State of Louisiana requested:

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Rel ... equest.pdf

So... (if this is the real thing...)

In anticipation of what was at the time a Category 5 storm (knowing the levees were only meant to withstand a Cat 3 storm), the Govenor of the State of Louisiana asks for a total of 130M in aid.

Thank goodness the storm weakened and went east.

She asked for:

$0 for Coordination
$0 for Technical and Advisory Assistance
$30M (Est) for Debris Removal
$25M (Est) for Emergency Protective Measures
$75M (Est) for Individual & Household Programs
$0 for Distribution of Emergency Supplies (hmmm...)

Seems to me the Govenor of Louisiana had NO reasonable/realistic emergency preparedness plan.

Included are:
3 special needs shelters - 3 on standby: at a cost of 500K a week each
3 hospital shelters - 3 on standby (the way i'm interpreting it) at a cost of 500K a week each.
generators for the 6 shelters: up to 500K
Louisiana State Police (added cost) 500K for a direct landfall
Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries costs to support evacuations: 500K for a direct landfall
Louisiana Department of Transportation: $5M for evacuations for a direct landfall

We are also beginning to hear that the highest winds recorded in New Orleans were 100 mph. If you consult your handy Saffir-Simpson Scale chart you will notice that would be in the range of a Cat 2 Hurricane. Therefore, shouldn't the levee's should've held? This will be a question for the engineers and everyone else who analyzes what happened in New Orleans. In the long run, we know the levee's did fail, and this is a separate issue from the response.

Just some questions to ponder and add to your information base.

Key Lime Lee wrote:

ph4ever wrote:starting with the NO Government responsible for the levies; not researching and spending their money foolishly.

A lot of articles out there about NO local and state govt as well as Army Corps of Engineers repeatedly requesting funds for projects relating to the levys over the past several years but being offered significantly less because of other federal spending priorities.

It was also stated on MSN or CNN Friday that the Levy Board (or whatever name that authority goes by) tied their funds to casinos and other ventures rather than doing studies on any possible damage done to the levys and retaining walls for any category hurricane higher than a 3.

Dezdemona wrote:Since the first calls for assistance must start at the local level, lets see what type of Federal Assistande the Govenor of the State of Louisiana requested:

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Rel ... equest.pdf

So... (if this is the real thing...)

In anticipation of what was at the time a Category 5 storm (knowing the levees were only meant to withstand a Cat 3 storm), the Govenor of the State of Louisiana asks for a total of 130M in aid.

Thank goodness the storm weakened and went east.

She asked for:

$0 for Coordination
$0 for Technical and Advisory Assistance
$30M (Est) for Debris Removal
$25M (Est) for Emergency Protective Measures
$75M (Est) for Individual & Household Programs
$0 for Distribution of Emergency Supplies (hmmm...)

Seems to me the Govenor of Louisiana had NO reasonable/realistic emergency preparedness plan.

Included are:
3 special needs shelters - 3 on standby: at a cost of 500K a week each
3 hospital shelters - 3 on standby (the way i'm interpreting it) at a cost of 500K a week each.
generators for the 6 shelters: up to 500K
Louisiana State Police (added cost) 500K for a direct landfall
Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries costs to support evacuations: 500K for a direct landfall
Louisiana Department of Transportation: $5M for evacuations for a direct landfall

We are also beginning to hear that the highest winds recorded in New Orleans were 100 mph. If you consult your handy Saffir-Simpson Scale chart you will notice that would be in the range of a Cat 2 Hurricane. Therefore, shouldn't the levee's should've held? This will be a question for the engineers and everyone else who analyzes what happened in New Orleans. In the long run, we know the levee's did fail, and this is a separate issue from the response.

Just some questions to ponder and add to your information base.

Thanks Des!! Like I said the problems started with the local governments and led all the way up. However there's no way that Bush did not see the news coverage of the flooding. In the long run the handling of the disaster is a National disgrace and the reactions from Bush down through the government ranks are subject to inspection.

can someone post some factual information stating that these people were ignored for a couple of days because of their race... please no opinions just facts. I'm not being a smart ass I'm just curious where all this is coming from, so I'm assuming someone must have some sort of factual information.

RAGTOP wrote:can someone post some factual information stating that these people were ignored for a couple of days because of their race... please no opinions just facts. I'm not being a smart ass I'm just curious where all this is coming from, so I'm assuming someone must have some sort of factual information.

Seriously???

Watch any of the news feeds of cnn, msnbc, fox news et al.

Unreal.

Key Lime Lee wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:can someone post some factual information stating that these people were ignored for a couple of days because of their race... please no opinions just facts. I'm not being a smart ass I'm just curious where all this is coming from, so I'm assuming someone must have some sort of factual information.

Watch any of the news feeds of cnn, msnbc, fox news et al.

be more specific . They have reported that they believe the slow response could be attributable to a racial situation. Those aren't facts.

RAGTOP wrote:

Key Lime Lee wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:can someone post some factual information stating that these people were ignored for a couple of days because of their race... please no opinions just facts. I'm not being a smart ass I'm just curious where all this is coming from, so I'm assuming someone must have some sort of factual information.

Watch any of the news feeds of cnn, msnbc, fox news et al.

be more specific . They have reported that they believe the slow response could be attributable to a racial situation. Those aren't facts.

Give me a break. Even the President acknowledged that the response was not acceptable.

If you haven't done the basic research to understand the situation down there than any further discussion is really pointless.

I got this info from another board I post on & I edited it some:

Lets go back in history and look at a couple of disasters, seeing how long it took for troops to arrive (note: data is based off of media reports):

Hurricane Andrew (largest hurricane prior to Katrina to hit the US): 5 days before first active troops arrive in FL.

Asian Tsunami : 6 days before first US military troops arrive in the affected area.

For comparison, it took 4 days to respond to Hurricane Katrina, a much larger crisis than Andrew or the Asian Tsunami (poor folk who Bush supposedly doesn't care about). And in both of those cases you didn't have a flooded city to deal with. So, that and the following:

1). You have a person who has absolutely no experience in running Emergency Management in charge of FEMA (which is no excuse - and he will pay with his job.)

2). A govenor who didn't call for active troops until after they realized that they had a major problem (remember folks, the US can't just go sending troops into places on US soil. The govenors have to ask for them, even with a federal emergency declaration). (When did the Govenor call for troops Monday or Tuesday?)

3). A mayor who a). knew that it would take 55-72 hours to completely evacuate the city and b). left over 300 school buses in a parking lot in nice neat rows instead of using them for evacuations (please, Mayor, explain that to everyone).

I'd say that 4 days, while still a long time for a response, was resonable given the above delays. Also, as someone mentioned before, FEMA was in New Orleans within 24 hours of the hurricane striking. The National Guard and Coast Guard also were in there within 24 hours. Yes, FEMA Director Brown will most likely be fired after everything shakes out, but lets put some perspective on this

Dezdemona wrote:...We are also beginning to hear that the highest winds recorded in New Orleans were 100 mph. If you consult your handy Saffir-Simpson Scale chart you will notice that would be in the range of a Cat 2 Hurricane. Therefore, shouldn't the levee's [expected to withstand Cat 3 storm] should've held? This will be a question for the engineers and everyone else who analyzes what happened in New Orleans. In the long run, we know the levee's did fail, and this is a separate issue from the response.

Just some questions to ponder and add to your information base.

Just a note:
When much-weakened Isabel came ashore in the Chesapeake Bay it was measured as a Cat 2 or less, but because of the way it pushed tidal waters and also because of the shape of the Bay (an inverted V-shape) it produced a storm surge twice as big as expected, flooding areas of Annapolis and Baltimore with little or no warning.

Key Lime Lee wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:

Key Lime Lee wrote:

RAGTOP wrote:can someone post some factual information stating that these people were ignored for a couple of days because of their race... please no opinions just facts. I'm not being a smart ass I'm just curious where all this is coming from, so I'm assuming someone must have some sort of factual information.

Watch any of the news feeds of cnn, msnbc, fox news et al.

be more specific . They have reported that they believe the slow response could be attributable to a racial situation. Those aren't facts.

Give me a break.

why because I would prefer to see factual information before coming to a conclusion on this? ASSUMING these people weren't helped because they were black is a dangerous thing. I'm not ready to accuse and make that assumption based on the history of this country. If that makes me a "stupid American" (term you like to use) than so be it.