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Posted: December 9, 2005 1:34 am
by Lightning Bolt
I won't question the Air Marshal's judgement for a second.
If you don't want meet a violent end to your life, don't forget your meds, don't bring attention to yourself by going nuts, and foremost, don't
fly on airliners if you don't think these are reasonable preconditions.
I was annoyed this morning, to hear Katie Couric ask a U.S. Marshal representative if he felt there should be
additional training that would allow marshals to shoot with more precision (maybe shooting the gun out a suspect's hand?!!)
to avoid deadly consequences in the unfortunate event of a mistaken terrorist!
She sounded absurd!
Stick to fluff pieces, Katie, like the Thanksgiving Day Parade, huh?
Posted: December 9, 2005 2:10 am
by SchoolGirlHeart
Lightning Bolt wrote:I was annoyed this morning, to hear Katie Couric ask a U.S. Marshal representative if he felt there should be
additional training that would allow marshals to shoot with more precision (maybe shooting the gun out a suspect's hand?!!)
to avoid deadly consequences in the unfortunate event of a mistaken terrorist!
She sounded absurd!
Stick to fluff pieces, Katie, like the Thanksgiving Day Parade, huh?
I'm glad I don't get to watch the Today show, and I missed this.......
she's been watching to much TV, or something.....
center of mass, Katie.... center of mass....
(yeah, let's just *wound* Mr. Terrorist, so he can still get at the trigger on his bomb.....
)
Posted: December 9, 2005 2:15 am
by Sam
Lightning Bolt wrote:I won't question the Air Marshal's judgement for a second.
If you don't want meet a violent end to your life, don't forget your meds, don't bring attention to yourself by going nuts, and foremost, don't
fly on airliners if you don't think these are reasonable preconditions.
I was annoyed this morning, to hear Katie Couric ask a U.S. Marshal representative if he felt there should be
additional training that would allow marshals to shoot with more precision (maybe shooting the gun out a suspect's hand?!!)
to avoid deadly consequences in the unfortunate event of a mistaken terrorist!
She sounded absurd!
Stick to fluff pieces, Katie, like the Thanksgiving Day Parade, huh?
You train to shoot for center mass for the highest probility of a hit to STOP the person.
No doubt saying the word "gun" would incapictate Katie..let alone if she actually saw one...... Let's say the Air Marshall DID try to shoot the offender in the hand and the bullet either passed through or nicked a finger and then hit and killed or wounded the person behind the offender... just what would Katie ask then...Katie just sit there and do your cutsie act....for what you are paid a year, you are overpaid for it..but all you have to do is sit there, look cute, (and ask Jimmy Buffett to play a song that everyone else has heard played to death...Why not ask him for something else sometime ) and smile to earn your money....I would say the rest of the world could do without your simplistic and idealistic view and interpretation of what is going on but then again how would stupid people get any news that they could actually understand?
Posted: December 9, 2005 3:16 am
by Emerson_Bigguns
You train to shoot for center mass for the highest probility of a hit to STOP the person.
Also, in most cases it is not shoot to kill as all the news networks were bantering about yesterday. It is a reaction to an action that is meant to stop the threat. If the threat is neutralized with out the taking of a life all the better. If the person dies, so be it. They made a decision that forced a reaction by the officer. It was his choice, not the officer's.
Posted: December 9, 2005 4:04 am
by Sam
Emerson_Bigguns wrote:You train to shoot for center mass for the highest probility of a hit to STOP the person.
Also, in most cases it is not shoot to kill as all the news networks were bantering about yesterday. It is a reaction to an action that is meant to stop the threat. If the threat is neutralized with out the taking of a life all the better. If the person dies, so be it. They made a decision that forced a reaction by the officer. It was his choice, not the officer's.
EXACTLY
I would love for the Katie Curics of the world to go throught the training and a simple firing range (let alone the various other types) and then listen to them whine about why they did not qualify or why they didn't do this or that or did this instead of that to get an idea of what is really involved.
Too much Hollywood and too many "war stories" have people believing in "magic bullets" that a bullet strike anywhere will stop someone. They often use the arguement that it would stop them , but then again you can tell them/ ask them "You are not a dedicated bad guy, are you?"
How's this for an idea after giving Katie some FAM with a weapon...take her to the range and give her FAM FIRE then a standard qual fire.....her choice of weapons ...handgun, rifle, shotgun , or all...Then have her run and I MEAN RUN not jog....anywhere from 100 to 500 to 1000 yards and come back and fire the same course of fire. Let's see how she shoots then. Let's have a few people screaming and yelling at her....at the same time....Anyone think there will be a noticeable difference in her range score???
Then again I seriously doubt that would have any lasting impression on her since she can use the out..."I am a commentator/reporter! It is NOT my job or responsibility to be able to do such." Well Katie if you are going to talk about something...don't you think you should KNOW what you are actually talking about?"
Katie and anyone else that thinks shooting in the hand or whatever works, do some research on actual documented shootings find out how many times there are actual oneshot stops and how many times some people were shot repeatedly and still did not stop.
Tell us how many documented people INTENTIONALLY shot in the hand stopped their deadly intent and were no longer a threat....etc
Posted: December 9, 2005 8:03 am
by SMLCHNG
Lightning Bolt wrote:
I was annoyed this morning, to hear Katie Couric ask a U.S. Marshal representative if he felt there should be
additional training that would allow marshals to shoot with more precision (maybe shooting the gun out a suspect's hand?!!)
to avoid deadly consequences in the unfortunate event of a mistaken terrorist!
She sounded absurd!
You weren't the only one who was annoyed.. Elrod and I just rolled our eyes and shook our head.
Posted: December 9, 2005 9:03 am
by ToplessRideFL
Law Enforcement did their job.... IMO
If I am on a plane and I frantically try to run off it and yell that I have a bomb.... I deserve to be shot. Period end of story!
Posted: December 9, 2005 9:06 am
by SchoolGirlHeart
Another possibility I have heard several people mention is that the gentleman knew what he was doing and saying, realized the potential consequences, and in his highly agitated, possibly depressed state, he committed "suicide by cop".....
Posted: December 9, 2005 9:09 am
by ToplessRideFL
SchoolGirlHeart wrote: and in his highly agitated, possibly depressed state, he committed "suicide by cop".....
WOW
Posted: December 9, 2005 9:10 am
by SchoolGirlHeart
ToplessRideFL wrote:SchoolGirlHeart wrote: and in his highly agitated, possibly depressed state, he committed "suicide by cop".....
WOW
hard to say, without being there, but just from reading news reports, it's a possibility....
Posted: December 9, 2005 9:12 am
by ToplessRideFL
SchoolGirlHeart wrote:
hard to say, without being there, but just from reading news reports, it's a possibility....
Yep... just had not thought about it.....
Posted: December 9, 2005 8:38 pm
by ragtopW
Sam wrote:ragtopW wrote:Sam wrote:ragtopW wrote:Crazy Navy Flyer wrote:Not typical Bipolar behavior, I think that's BS.
Good job by the marshall. A friend across the street is an air marshall, I'll see if I can get the real story.
and
if he was Bipolar and off his meds..
Why on earth would you ever let him travel
with the security alert world we live in???
I too commend the Air Marshalls.
He was and American Cit and his wife did supposedly state that he was bipolar and OFF of his meds.
The man alledgedly refused to listen to commands of the Air Marshalls and was carrying a backpack. No bomb was found. One station DID REPORT 3 suspicious items (luggage?) were destroyed/blown up by the bomb squad.
One reporter on one station reported it was the first time an Air Marshall had used a weapon since 9/11. I don't recall any Air Marshalls using weapons on anyone on 9/11....
and we would have heard
the Bulldog .44 special 5 shot was built and designed just for the Marshals
As were the Glaser Safety slugs..
just like are in my bedside pal. 
I am quite sure that the Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special was not designed
JUST for Air Marshalls, since Charter Arms went out of business in the late 80s and tha Air Marshalls were not created until around 2002. The new Charter company is called Charter 2000, but .44SPL Bulldawg is ( or was ) an excellent inexpensive self defense close range weapon and the Glaser Safety Slug is a not so inexpensive and EXCELLENT non overpenetrating load. David Berkowitz ( Son of Sam killer and no relation) used the Charter Arms .44 Special Bulldog in his killings.
The ORIGINAL Glaser Safety Slug ( now there are 2 kinds "Blue" and Silver") was not designed with Sky Marshalls (or now called Air Marshalls) in mind and was released on the market around 74-75. While what it was designed for may fit the current Air Marshall's need, it was never a specific requirement for what the original slug's design ( nor it's Blue and Silver configurations) performance to be soley for their role.
I am not sure what year the Air Marshalls selected it as the round of choice...but it it and several other frangible rounds do make for good choices to carry in such close quarters.
In any Law Enforcement shooting, there are many numerous people,including the media and the public, that question the decision the officer had to make and his/her judgement. These people have all the time in the world the ability to apply hindsight, to make their decision and to second guess, what the officer saw as life threatening or danger and was or is generally compressed into about 3 seconds of a situation.
This particular individual was alledgedly ACTUALLY HOLDING THE knapsack/bag and reaching into it when he was shot....
There may well be questionable things about the shooting...no doubt there always seems to be....at least for some people....For people that don't beleive the guy was Bipolar or whatever ...that is your decision to make...it is no matter if he was or was not in all reality does it???
Either way, he clearly indicated, with his actions his instability and his statements or else everyone else is lying about him, including his wife and others, let alone the Air Marshall...So believe as you choose....
Perhaps he had other stability problems besides being bipolar, that does not mean he was not bipolar and I really do not believe anyone in here is qualified to say what problems the man may have had, or may not have suffered, from based on the little knowledge that has been released about him.
No one says all bipolar people are homicidal or dangerous. Clearly this man was posing a threat, real or percieved, and paid with his life.
In the end it matters not if he was not bipolar ,nor does his sexual orientation, nor his job, or if his favorite color, or if he liked or hated animals, does it....he was shot and killed for his actions and claiming he had a bomb and was running away and apparently did not listen to, or obey the orders of the Air Marshall(s).
Yes it is sad he lost his life but clearly ( at least from what we know at this time) it was his choice to make.
It is sadder still that the Air Marshall must live with what the results of what he/she did and be second guessed for the rest of his/her life by the media and everyone else....
Sam that info I gave was given to me in the Packaging
of my Glasers (long long gone) I do have the Blue tips
so I guess Glaser was tooting their own horn.
(do they still make those?)
Posted: December 9, 2005 8:41 pm
by 12vmanRick
All the sudden a liberal media is trying to say the Air Marshall was wrong and acted inappropriate. The liberal rag ass newspaper in Atlanta has published and editorial by a so-called airline pilot, who is obviously an IDTIOT, that said that airmarshalls and pilots that carry guns are just "itching at the trigger to shoot someone"
Posted: December 9, 2005 8:44 pm
by ragtopW
12vmanRick wrote:All the sudden a liberal media is trying to say the Air Marshall was wrong and acted inappropriate. The liberal rag ass newspaper in Atlanta has published and editorial by a so-called airline pilot, who is obviously an IDTIOT, that said that airmarshalls and pilots that carry guns are just "itching at the trigger to shoot someone"
Yeah let's see one shooting in How many flights since
they have been armed..
I mean Dodge City it Ain't
Posted: December 9, 2005 9:38 pm
by jonesbeach10
My first thought was that they should have used a stun gun, but then I realized I don't want a terrorist stunned then coming to in a couple of minutes and finding his trigger. What they did was right. Obviously it's his fault for not taking his meds. It also doesn't sound like bipolar as much as it seemed like schizophrenia, with the fanatical ideas and such.
Posted: December 9, 2005 11:05 pm
by ragtopW
SchoolGirlHeart wrote:Lightning Bolt wrote:I was annoyed this morning, to hear Katie Couric ask a U.S. Marshal representative if he felt there should be
additional training that would allow marshals to shoot with more precision (maybe shooting the gun out a suspect's hand?!!)
to avoid deadly consequences in the unfortunate event of a mistaken terrorist!
She sounded absurd!
Stick to fluff pieces, Katie, like the Thanksgiving Day Parade, huh?
I'm glad I don't get to watch the Today show, and I missed this.......
she's been watching to much TV, or something.....
center of mass, Katie.... center of mass....
(yeah, let's just *wound* Mr. Terrorist, so he can still get at the trigger on his bomb.....
)
IMHO the one of the worst things that have
ever ever
been shown on TV was that footage where the sniper
shot the gun out of the Suspects/perps and a few years back
now everyone thinks that is the way to go
and IMHO the sniper there has gone out of his way to
enhance this image..
Posted: December 9, 2005 11:13 pm
by SchoolGirlHeart
12vmanRick wrote:All the sudden a liberal media is trying to say the Air Marshall was wrong and acted inappropriate. The liberal rag ass newspaper in Atlanta has published and editorial by a so-called airline pilot, who is obviously an IDTIOT, that said that airmarshalls and pilots that carry guns are just "itching at the trigger to shoot someone"
man, this kind of stuff makes me *mad*....
what a different story it'd be if a) the man had a bomb or b) the air marshals had hesitated and the man had *set off* a device and killed people.....
the air marshals are damned if they do, damned if they don't, in the media...
Posted: December 9, 2005 11:46 pm
by Sam
ragtopW wrote:
Sam that info I gave was given to me in the Packaging
of my Glasers (long long gone) I do have the Blue tips
so I guess Glaser was tooting their own horn.
(do they still make those?)
The first generation of Safety Slugs, was different and found not to be as reliable in semi autos......supposedly had to do with feeding reliabilty being one of them and a few failures of the bullet not performing as adverized. It was a hollowpoint design.
Yes they curently still make the "Blue" and the "Silver" tipped rounds. The major difference is one uses compressed #12 shot and the other uses compressed #6 shot.
( NOTE DO NOT CONFUSE the "Silver Tip" Glaser Safety Slug with Winchester-Western Silver Tip bullets.)
I
think Corbon bought the "Glaser Safety Slug" name, and is currently manufacturing and marketing them . I am not sure about that though. I know (as you do) they are not cost effective to practice with....last time I bought some for my .45 acp, cost me around $7.00, I think it was for six rounds of the blue-tips.....was a while back, so I am not sure now....anyway it is still in production as are other frangible bullets which may be somewhat more difficult to find in retail stores....
the main thing to remember is that there is no such thing as a "magic bullet" that does everything well. There are many numerous arguments that go on and on about "this type bullet is best" or "that type bullet is best" and the way it performs. Bullets are designed to perform in certain ways ..rapid expansion means less penetration. In winter time hollowpoints have found to "clog up" due to heavy clothing and perform as standard ball ammo would.
Frangible bullets/slugs are probably the best choice around where it is close quarter shooting and overpenetration is a problem that must be factored in...though some will argue that they do not always penetrate deep enough. One thing that does always work is bullet placement and hitting your target in a vital area, and that can never be realisticlly argued....
No doubt, the guy had some sort of issues,and it may well have been a "suicide by cop" and he was seeking his 15 minutes. At this point no one really knows.
My conolences to his family and friends and as well to the Air Marshall involved in the situation.
It does not matter if the shooter was an Air Marshall or "a regular" street patrolman or detective or state trooper or a person in the military or the average citizen that uses a firearm to defend themselves or others.
The mainstream media (MSM) thinks all firearms are bad and seldom if ever portrays them in a positive way.
How many times have you seen the news and they mention a shooting and show a handgun even though the weapon(s) involved were not handguns?
Anyone interested ...Google or use your favorite search engine for Professor Gary Kleck and read his study and conclusions on civilian use of handguns in legitimate self defense. Also read his book...
"Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America,"
Posted: December 10, 2005 10:02 am
by Captain Morgan
