Seal Hunt/Global Climate Change Redux

[flyboy55]

What do seal hunting and global climate change (aka global warming) have to do with each other?

I'm glad you asked.

Seals give birth to their pups on pans of sea ice. They don't give birth in the water, under the water, etc. If there is less ice, then fewer seals will give birth. This fact is well-documented by wildlife biologists.

Another well-documented fact is that there is less ice. The amount of ice in Arctic regions has been shrinking rapidly in the last few decades, as a result of warmer temperatures on a global scale, most likely due to human causes
.
This link will take you to an interview with Inuit hunters who have witnessed first-hand the shrinkage of Arctic ice, and the reduction in seal numbers.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... ns.01.html

There are some BNers who are worried about the seal hunt, but maybe not so worried about climate change ("I'll be dead by then" is one remark I read).

If you happen to care about seals, perhaps you should care about the affects of climate change on seals. I don't think the seal hunt will be an issue a few short decades from now. No ice=No seals=No hunt. In the long run, what could be more cruel: the brutal slaughter of thousands of seals every year, or the extinction of entire species because of our environmental abuses?

Dang! Maybe those crazy environmentalists WERE right!

Cheers.

[Brown Eyed Girl]

What makes you think we DON'T care? You're taking the remark of one and applying it to the masses.

Some of us have been battling these issues for years. We just don't see the need to go to extremes that some do to say we are making a difference. Just my $.02.

[rsgeist]

[ragtopW]

sooooo With less ice we can go fishing!!!!!!

[Sam]

sooooo With less ice we can go fishing!!!!!!

Why not somebody already supplied the bait.

As far as global warming.It is my opinion it is a natural process the earth goes through. The Kyoto Protocols would certainly have not done anything to lessen the total ammount of the gases released. It would have limited some countries and allowed others to produce more.

The Earth has been through many changes and will no doubt go through many more. Nothing could be stop the previous changes and nothing can really be done to stop these changes....at least from everything I have read about theavailable science or "quasi/pseudo-science" about it.
Funny how scientist cannot predict the weather accurately in a long range forecast, but some scientist think they can tell us a long term forecast with a relatively short period of study and few actual facts.

If the ice melts so be it. It melts and the ice shelves calve every year. A big threat? Not really as big as some make it out to be. A problem yes. Huge problem and one that can't be dealt with or overcome? NO

Simple experiment:
Take a glass and fill it with ice and then water. Set it out and allow the ice to completely melt. When the ice eventually melts does the glass overflow?

AS for the icebergs.... why not tow them to an area that is in need of water? This was a propose thought back in the 70's

As to what else this means about worldwide climatic change....who really knows? I saw predictions that hurricanes would increses in strength and intensity back in the 70s/80s at the approach and turn of the century mark.

[flyboy55]

What makes you think we DON'T care? You're taking the remark of one and applying it to the masses.

Some of us have been battling these issues for years. We just don't see the need to go to extremes that some do to say we are making a difference. Just my $.02.

If the flipper fits wear it.

Cheers.

[flyboy55]

If the ice melts so be it. It melts and the ice shelves calve every year. A big threat? Not really as big as some make it out to be. A problem yes. Huge problem and one that can't be dealt with or overcome? NO

Simple experiment:
Take a glass and fill it with ice and then water. Set it out and allow the ice to completely melt. When the ice eventually melts does the glass overflow?

You are correct insofar as the glass of icewater is concerned, but if you mean for this to be a demonstration that global warming won't affect sea levels and coastlines around the world, then your argument is flawed.

If it were only the ice that is already floating on seawater that was melting, like the ice cubes in your full glass (eg northern pack ice), then the impact would not be on sea levels. The excess fresh water draining into the North Atlantic would still have serious consequences for ocean currents such as the Gulf Stream. If the Gulf Stream were to decrease significantly or shut down altogether, as some scientists predict, then weather along the Eastern seaboard and in Europe would change dramatically, and possibly in a very short period of time.

But your glass of icewater demonstration doesn't apply to the ice that sits on underlying land masses, like the Arctic archipelago and almost all of Antarctica.

Take that same glass of icewater, already full to the brim, and throw a few more ice cubes into it, or more accurately, melt a few more ice cubes and pour that water into the full glass. Does the glass overflow? Yes. That is how the Earth's increasing temperature will affect sea levels and coastlines.

Some of the same people who used to insist that there wasn't any evidence of global warming, that it was junk science or pseudo science, who are now faced with mountains of evidence about the reality of climate change, are now arguing that it is simply "nature taking its course and there is nothing to be done".

On the contrary, there is much that can be done, but if obstructionist views such as these carry the day, then the opportunity to deal with the problem will soon slip out of reach.

Now I feel like a rum and coke, but easy on the ice.

Cheers.

[jonesbeach10]

I agree with Sam on the fact that I believe that the earth is naturally going through global warming. One of the few things I remember from middle school was in Earth Science (great teacher) and seeing a graph of average temperatures over Earth's history. It was cyclic as it went from ice age to anti-ice age for lack of a better word (don't remember). If I remember correctly, we were in a period of increasing temperatures going from ice age to anti-ice age.

That being said, I do believe that humans are not helping this process and feel that we should be doing more to at least slow the process down.

[Coconuts]

Simple experiment:
Take a glass and fill it with ice and then water. Set it out and allow the ice to completely melt. When the ice eventually melts does the glass overflow?

I saw predictions that hurricanes would increase in strength and intensity back in the 70s/80s at the approach and turn of the century mark.

How about a semi-conclusive experiment- the earth's not going to overflow- take an aquarium, set some big chunks of ice on some parts of the bottom, put "land mass" on it, then set up some other other land masses, add water and ice, then let the ice melt and see how deep your "coastlines" get when the stuff sitting on the ice dumps into the water.

Ok, so the dire predictions were a few years off- a few years in geological time is nothing.

[Sam]

If the ice melts so be it. It melts and the ice shelves calve every year. A big threat? Not really as big as some make it out to be. A problem yes. Huge problem and one that can't be dealt with or overcome? NO

Simple experiment:
Take a glass and fill it with ice and then water. Set it out and allow the ice to completely melt. When the ice eventually melts does the glass overflow?

You are correct insofar as the glass of icewater is concerned, but if you mean for this to be a demonstration that global warming won't affect sea levels and coastlines around the world, then your argument is flawed.

If it were only the ice that is already floating on seawater that was melting, like the ice cubes in your full glass (eg northern pack ice), then the impact would not be on sea levels. The excess fresh water draining into the North Atlantic would still have serious consequences for ocean currents such as the Gulf Stream. If the Gulf Stream were to decrease significantly or shut down altogether, as some scientists predict, then weather along the Eastern seaboard and in Europe would change dramatically, and possibly in a very short period of time.

But your glass of icewater demonstration doesn't apply to the ice that sits on underlying land masses, like the Arctic archipelago and almost all of Antarctica.

Take that same glass of icewater, already full to the brim, and throw a few more ice cubes into it, or more accurately, melt a few more ice cubes and pour that water into the full glass. Does the glass overflow? Yes. That is how the Earth's increasing temperature will affect sea levels and coastlines.

Some of the same people who used to insist that there wasn't any evidence of global warming, that it was junk science or pseudo science, who are now faced with mountains of evidence about the reality of climate change, are now arguing that it is simply "nature taking its course and there is nothing to be done".

On the contrary, there is much that can be done, but if obstructionist views such as these carry the day, then the opportunity to deal with the problem will soon slip out of reach.

Now I feel like a rum and coke, but easy on the ice.

Cheers.

How can you add more to a glass that is already full? The glass is already full. Since the earth is 3/4 or so water...

So how high will the oceans be if all of the available ice melts? ( If it does actually melt, the resulting rise in the oceans, will be the least of anyone's concern.)

I am not sure what your point is....What the people were referring to as junk or pseudo science, is that the greenhouse gases being generated by "man" being responsible for the climate change. Certainly the Kyoto Protocols /Accords would do nothing to lessen the output as a whole.

After all how can people decide and forecast the weather hundreds of years in adavance when they cannot even accurately predict it for a a couple of weeks ....let alone a month.....

So tell us, since you cliaim, so many things can be done, just what can be done to reverse the effects of what many percieve to be, a normal shift in the climate of the earth's cycle?

Going through ice cores samples and what not, it seems pretty well documented the earth has went through such changes before.

As to it being a large threat? Possibly. The main thing is, it is not happening over night and people have no need to panic and can prepare for it. Cities can prepare etc. It is not like it is going to happen overnight or in the next couple of days.

The calving off of the ice flows, is part of their cycle. Just like anything else it happens slower in some years and faster in other years.

All things considered, we actuallly know less about our oceans and cycles of the planet Earth than we know about our solar system, which leaves a lot of open room, to speculation and rumors.

[Sam]

Simple experiment:
Take a glass and fill it with ice and then water. Set it out and allow the ice to completely melt. When the ice eventually melts does the glass overflow?

I saw predictions that hurricanes would increase in strength and intensity back in the 70s/80s at the approach and turn of the century mark.

How about a semi-conclusive experiment- the earth's not going to overflow- take an aquarium, set some big chunks of ice on some parts of the bottom, put "land mass" on it, then set up some other other land masses, add water and ice, then let the ice melt and see how deep your "coastlines" get when the stuff sitting on the ice dumps into the water.

Ok, so the dire predictions were a few years off- a few years in geological time is nothing.

[ph4ever]

the glass and aquarium theory are pretty good but what they don't take into consideration is that the artic cap never completely melts. So you have years upon years of snow compacting and turning into ice. Wouldn't over the years this become sever hundred feet of ice? I mean less than an hour away from me the mountains have in the area of 10 feet of snow.

Common sense tells me that if I add the representation of quite possibly several thousand feet of ice cap on top of my glass or aquarium there's gonna be some water dispacement.

Now I realize the ocean is a huge vessel however we must also realize that the slightest change in the ocean can have drastic effects. For example, a small underwater earthquake can trigger a tsunami that can kill thousands.

So let's take our experiment one step higher. Imagine this. A group of well dressed people, in formal wear, gathered around a swimming pool standing on the edge. These people represent the costal cities. On the diving board is an extremely overweight person who does a cannonball. Those people in their fancy evening wear are gonna get wet.

Now if we believe our government statistics that state more people are moving to the costal United States wouldn't it be safe to assume that there exists a potential for major disaster if the climatologists worst case scenario happened?

Didn't we learn from Katrina that our costal cities need to think of a worst case scenario from mother nature and then some?

Now I know this is just theory and I'm not a climatologist. Do we even have a climatologist on BN?

[Cuervo]

As someone who has spent most of his adult life, academically and professionally, dedicated to “the cause”.

I have a reality check………. Earth’s 4 Sale

As much as I would love to sit here and debate the science of Global Warming and the environmental ailments of our “little rock” in space. I will defer to a time when you see me out on the road at the shows and we can share a few phriendly rhum drinks.

Unfortunately, the sad truth is that the human species will only start to react to this global problem when it become economically viable to do so or when it becomes an issue to save the human species.

As for the issue with the seals, I guess one could look at less calving grounds as a "population check" since man has decimated the populations of the major ocean predators or an even crazier though that the seals may even adapt to their changing environment and move their calving grounds

Oh No…. I need to stop playing the Devil’s Advocate…… Can you believe my daily job is to protect the environment?

As Terence Mann, the fictional 60’s radical activist, once said…..

“Peace, Love, Dope”

[ph4ever]

I knew there was a reason I loved you so much!!!!

I can't wait till the next time we cross paths - the first drink's on me.


and I promise to yell the security guard is coming LOUDER next time

[flyboy55]

As someone who has spent most of his adult life, academically and professionally, dedicated to “the cause”.

I have a reality check………. Earth’s 4 Sale . . .

Unfortunately, the sad truth is that the human species will only start to react to this global problem when it become economically viable to do so or when it becomes an issue to save the human species.

I'm not sure about this. Are you suggesting that market forces will serve as some sort of corrective to our current and future problems? If that is your point, then I think we are all in BIG trouble.

As for the issue with the seals, I guess one could look at less calving grounds as a "population check" since man has decimated the populations of the major ocean predators or an even crazier though that the seals may even adapt to their changing environment and move their calving grounds

No doubt some species will adapt and some will not. What the seals will do is an open question, but generally speaking loss of breeding habitat usually means extinction. I only mentioned the seals because their fate was the central concern of another thread regarding the seal hunt, and within a short span of time I was struck by a number of news items where the impacts of global warming were a common theme (eg coastal flooding wiping out Florida Keys).

Oh No…. I need to stop playing the Devil’s Advocate…… Can you believe my daily job is to protect the environment?

If I understand correctly the gist of your post, you seem to be suggesting that nothing can be done/ nothing needs to be done/ it's hopeless or perhaps that you are personally "burnt out".

Don't quit. There is much that can be done by the likes of us. The status quo just about guarantees our own demise.

Cheers. (I thnk)

[ph4ever]

If I understand correctly the gist of your post, you seem to be suggesting that nothing can be done/ nothing needs to be done/ it's hopeless or perhaps that you are personally "burnt out".

Having seen the glint in Cuervo's eye when he talks about these things I don't think he's burned out - not by a long shot.

Hungover, probably but not burnt out.

[Cuervo]

Hungover, probably but not burnt out.

Oh you know me so well

[Brown Eyed Girl]

Hungover, probably but not burnt out.

Oh you know me so well

*smooooooooooooooooooooooch* Sorry, couldn't resist.

Remember Lizzie and me last year in Tampa, trying to save the world right after we finally met?

[Sam]

As someone who has spent most of his adult life, academically and professionally, dedicated to “the cause”.

I have a reality check………. Earth’s 4 Sale . . .

Unfortunately, the sad truth is that the human species will only start to react to this global problem when it become economically viable to do so or when it becomes an issue to save the human species.

I'm not sure about this. Are you suggesting that market forces will serve as some sort of corrective to our current and future problems? If that is your point, then I think we are all in BIG trouble.

As for the issue with the seals, I guess one could look at less calving grounds as a "population check" since man has decimated the populations of the major ocean predators or an even crazier though that the seals may even adapt to their changing environment and move their calving grounds

No doubt some species will adapt and some will not. What the seals will do is an open question, but generally speaking loss of breeding habitat usually means extinction. I only mentioned the seals because their fate was the central concern of another thread regarding the seal hunt, and within a short span of time I was struck by a number of news items where the impacts of global warming were a common theme (eg coastal flooding wiping out Florida Keys).

Oh No…. I need to stop playing the Devil’s Advocate…… Can you believe my daily job is to protect the environment?

If I understand correctly the gist of your post, you seem to be suggesting that nothing can be done/ nothing needs to be done/ it's hopeless or perhaps that you are personally "burnt out".

Don't quit. There is much that can be done by the likes of us. The status quo just about guarantees our own demise.

Cheers. (I thnk)

So... just what is it that we can do, that is going to change it? As I said before the world goes through many changes in it's cycles.

Do you think we can change it over night? in a week or a year? Ten years? 100 years? How long?
Just what can be done? Please don't even try to tell me implementation of The Kyoto Accords/Protocols would make any difference. It DID NOT cut back on the ammount of greenhouse gases overall. It allowed some countries to produce more and forced some modern countries to cut back.

Even IF the polllution of the Greenhouse gases, happened to be the cause of this, how do you propose to change the global effects?

How do you know it is soley the greenhouse gases as the cause? Again, I say it is based upon pseudo/quasi science, of people with a political agenda, that ignore the hard data of the Earth's climatatic history, from the pack ice cores and other sources.

Ice is lighter than water and land. SOME land does sit atop permafrost, however, I don't recall any land mass that sits a top any giant or small "iceberg" or other land mass.

The main thing is...IF ALL of the polar icecaps do melt...that will be the least of anyone's worries....

As I said before, this is a gradual and normal process that has occured before. No need to panic. Engineering steps can be put into place to prevent major damages for the most part.

I have read data from both sides of the issue.
None of which results in any long term "ABSOLUTE CONFIRMINED" conclusions, beyond any reasonable doubt. It took eons for the ice to build up as it has.
The North Pole is mainly an ice mass. The South Pole is mainly a land mass. Submarines have visited the North Pole, but never the South Pole.

Tell me how people, can predict a future of whole world climatic change, when they cannot consistantly and accurately predict the weather, for much longer than say .... a week at a time?

Again I ask you what are the things you speak ofthat everyone can do to prevent this from happening?

[ph4ever]

Malkid!!!!!!! Translation please!!!!!