NSA - They Hate Our Freedoms

[green1]

what part of the portion of the story as reported, "the officers had him subdued, and then they put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger" do you see as protection? Certainly, he resisted an order to stop; by plain-clothed police officers in a language he understood second-best at best. After being chased, and then held down by multiple strangers, they put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger.

It was an execution. It was adrenaline and stress running wild. And it cost a guy his life for no good reason.

With that, I am done on this point. I am not going to even make the offer to agree to disagree, because you certainly are not seeing the point I am trying to make; and I cannot fathom how you can see this as a correct and just act.

You said he was subdued, not me. Were his legs free? Could he move a single finger? Because that is all that is necessary to trigger an electrical firing mechanism.

You have no concept of the technology involved. And then, even though you decry it, when the police do something you view as evil, you act as judge, jury and executioner towards them. You are obvioulsy an apologist, and as you just stated you are incapable of seeing this horrible action as anything other than a premeditated execution. Well, if that is your take, fine so be it.

[Crazy Navy Flyer]

And the liberals have been fooled again. Seems Bellsouth and Verizon have both denied giving phone records to NSA. USA Today failed to confirm their story in their rush to bash the president. Ah, the liberal media, where would we be without them. But this won't be headlines today, the media got more Bush hatred stirred up with the lies, you Bush hating liberals are so gullible.

[7lords]

And the liberals have been fooled again. Seems Bellsouth and Verizon have both denied giving phone records to NSA. USA Today failed to confirm their story in their rush to bash the president. Ah, the liberal media, where would we be without them. But this won't be headlines today, the media got more Bush hatred stirred up with the lies, you Bush hating liberals are so gullible.

Just because they say they didn't give them phone records, doesn't mean they didn't:

The Department of Justice says it secretly sought phone records and other documents of 3,501 people last year under a provision of the Patriot Act that does not require judicial oversight.

The records were obtained with the use of what are known as National Security Letters, which can be signed by an FBI agent and are only for use in terrorism cases.

The letters require telephone companies to keep secret even the existence of the request for records.

Assistant Attorney General William Moschella told Congress last month that 9,254 National Security Letters were issued in 2005 involving 3,501 people.

Federal law enforcement sources say the National Security Letters are being used to obtain phone records of reporters at ABC News and elsewhere in an attempt to learn confidential sources who may have provided classified information in violation of the law.

The FBI says its request for reporters' phone records are made in compliance with the law.

Not saying they did or didn't but just because Bellsouth and Verizon say they didn't hand over records, doesn't make it true.

[LIPH]

From this morning's Wall Street Journal:
In a statement, USA Today said that "Sources told us that Bell South and Verizon records are included in the database. We've read the statements by Bell South and Verizon and all we can do is continue to investigate and pursue the story. We're confident in our coverage of the phone database story, but we won't summarily dismiss Bell South's and Verizon's denials without taking a closer look."

Maybe USA Today should have "continued[d] to investigate and pursue the story" and "tak[en] a closer look" before publishing the article.

[OystersandBeer]

Would it be considered talking with terrorists if someone has a conversation talking about getting a half-pound of "lettuce?"

This wire-tapping wouldn't be a way to also fight "The War on Drugs," would it?

Whatever happened with that war? How did it end?




(This was all a joke. I in no way support terrorist, drug dealers, or any other "evil" person, whether they are truly evil or not. It is not up to me to decide. But, if someone is evil, I do not support them.)

[PirateJohn]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

And, of course, conservatives are equally free with equating anything vaguely liberal with being Commie. And we all know that those damned, evil nations of northern Europe (like Sweden and the Netherlands) are socialist and that's a bad thing.

Puh-leese. Dubya's popularity is deservedly dropping to record lows and he will be lucky if he stays out of jail or international courts.

Let's get back to this privacy issue and how it's good (to some) that the NSA is spying on Americans yet cannot catch bin Laden despite having tons of troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

[RinglingRingling]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

And, of course, conservatives are equally free with equating anything vaguely liberal with being Commie. And we all know that those damned, evil nations of northern Europe (like Sweden and the Netherlands) are socialist and that's a bad thing.

Puh-leese. Dubya's popularity is deservedly dropping to record lows and he will be lucky if he stays out of jail or international courts.

Let's get back to this privacy issue and how it's good (to some) that the NSA is spying on Americans yet cannot catch bin Laden despite having tons of troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

well, if all his splinter-cell followers would just call him to check in, we could track the calls, "legally" and then make our move..

sorry. I'm back. I sprayed the monitor with coffee as I was typing that last part out.

[krusin1]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

And, of course, conservatives are equally free with equating anything vaguely liberal with being Commie. And we all know that those damned, evil nations of northern Europe (like Sweden and the Netherlands) are socialist and that's a bad thing.

Puh-leese. Dubya's popularity is deservedly dropping to record lows and he will be lucky if he stays out of jail or international courts.
.

You truly have a... unique... view of reality. If you've been paying attention, good old Europe ain't what she used to be. Unemployment, stagnant economies, funding crises, etc. etc. Socialism does nothing but encourage people to do as little as possible and take no responsibility for their actions. In my book, that IS pretty close to the definition of evil.

Also, your comment about Mr. Bush and jail and/or international courts... (uncontrollable giggling) Really don't see that happening...

[green1]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

And, of course, conservatives are equally free with equating anything vaguely liberal with being Commie. And we all know that those damned, evil nations of northern Europe (like Sweden and the Netherlands) are socialist and that's a bad thing.

Puh-leese. Dubya's popularity is deservedly dropping to record lows and he will be lucky if he stays out of jail or international courts.

Let's get back to this privacy issue and how it's good (to some) that the NSA is spying on Americans yet cannot catch bin Laden despite having tons of troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

I have not called anyone here a commie. Devolving the conversation to name calling does not further the discussion.

W will not go to international courts as the US has not, thankfully, signed the international court agreement. We can take care of our own, and if he is really as bad as you think, then we as a country will impeach him.

I don't think he has done a great job in several areas, but I do not think he should be impeached. As far as catching Bin Laden, that is not the main reason for the wiretapping. The main reason is to prevent terrorist attacks, as the article says. If we catch Bin Laden through that all the better. It is too bad, that when he was offered to us on a silver platter the CinC at the time did not have the balls to take him.

[green1]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

And, of course, conservatives are equally free with equating anything vaguely liberal with being Commie. And we all know that those damned, evil nations of northern Europe (like Sweden and the Netherlands) are socialist and that's a bad thing.

Puh-leese. Dubya's popularity is deservedly dropping to record lows and he will be lucky if he stays out of jail or international courts.

Let's get back to this privacy issue and how it's good (to some) that the NSA is spying on Americans yet cannot catch bin Laden despite having tons of troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

well, if all his splinter-cell followers would just call him to check in, we could track the calls, "legally" and then make our move..

sorry. I'm back. I sprayed the monitor with coffee as I was typing that last part out.

Doubtful if the Dems in congress have their way. By the time the warrant is obtained the call will be ended. That is the point here. With prepaid disposable cell phones the ability to track calls to foreign countries who have a history of supporting, either overtly or covertly, terrorism is critical. The ability to record that call immediately is essential.

[RinglingRingling]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

And, of course, conservatives are equally free with equating anything vaguely liberal with being Commie. And we all know that those damned, evil nations of northern Europe (like Sweden and the Netherlands) are socialist and that's a bad thing.

Puh-leese. Dubya's popularity is deservedly dropping to record lows and he will be lucky if he stays out of jail or international courts.

Let's get back to this privacy issue and how it's good (to some) that the NSA is spying on Americans yet cannot catch bin Laden despite having tons of troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

well, if all his splinter-cell followers would just call him to check in, we could track the calls, "legally" and then make our move..

sorry. I'm back. I sprayed the monitor with coffee as I was typing that last part out.

Doubtful if the Dems in congress have their way. By the time the warrant is obtained the call will be ended. That is the point here. With prepaid disposable cell phones the ability to track calls to foreign countries who have a history of supporting, either overtly or covertly, terrorism is critical. The ability to record that call immediately is essential.

d*m.. a shame. because today's terrorist is tomorrow's freedom fighter is the day after's moral equivalent of our founding fathers. Or today's patriot is really tomorrow's subversive is the day after's terrorist..

thanks.. but give me the requirement of probable cause (which is still fairly subjective) and warrant (easily-granted if you talk to the right judge) every time.

[green1]

d*m.. a shame. because today's terrorist is tomorrow's freedom fighter is the day after's moral equivalent of our founding fathers. Or today's patriot is really tomorrow's subversive is the day after's terrorist..

thanks.. but give me the requirement of probable cause (which is still fairly subjective) and warrant (easily-granted if you talk to the right judge) every time.

Just to be clear, you see a moral equivalency between Washington, Jefferson, Adams and the like, the terrorists who are cutting people's heads off on international news stations? That is interesting.

Again how do you get the warrant before the phone call is complete? Your glib reply didn't answer that critical question.

[PirateJohn]

[quote="krusin1"]


You truly have a... unique... view of reality. If you've been paying attention, good old Europe ain't what she used to be. Unemployment, stagnant economies, funding crises, etc. etc. Socialism does nothing but encourage people to do as little as possible and take no responsibility for their actions. In my book, that IS pretty close to the definition of evil.

quote]


I have a realistic view of the world, Clyde, not what you heard on Rush's show last night. I tend to read the Wall Street Journal -- Commie rag that it is -- and listen to friends and motorcycle club members (some exceptional folks who have traveled extensively and lived overseas) that are over there. I've also been shooting the breeze with a gaggle of Brits during the last few days over importing an old Land Rover.

Don't know how to tell you this, but if you think that Europe isn't what it used to be then you need to take a hard look around at your own neighborhood. Most Europeans can look forward to a retirement that isn't going to go bankrupt and health care as they age; few Americans can honestly do that and most who feel secure are naive.

Also, in case you haven't noticed the educational level in this nation is dropping like a rock (something that I see daily as I read conservatives posting their nonsense ) and the future financial powers are going to be China and India. Not the USA. We could barely hang on for the next 20-30 years and possibly keep up with the European Union if we were to seriously embrace NAFTA and combine Mexican labor with US and Canadian capital and designs, but conservatives are too busy fighting a losing battle over "heritage," Klan rights, jacked up pickup trucks, and sending hard working migrants back to Mexico to see the forest for the trees.

Frankly, it's a conservative's wet dream to tell working people in the USA that they are better off without the sorts of social supports that most Europeans receive. But hey -- your side sold you guys that weapons of mass destruction nonsense, so I guess that Barnum was right all along

Anywho, since you jokers were offended by someone else invoking the spectre of the Nazis and now that you are uncapping your Commie and socialist rhetoric, it should be interesting to see what yahoo jumps in with "Love it of leave it!"

Go and drink a beer Mon. If we ever cross paths I'll offer to buy the first round. But don't try to sell me this stuff about your view being more accurate than mine. As the most popular president of the last decade would have put it, "that dog won't hunt."

[PirateJohn]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

And, of course, conservatives are equally free with equating anything vaguely liberal with being Commie. And we all know that those damned, evil nations of northern Europe (like Sweden and the Netherlands) are socialist and that's a bad thing.

Puh-leese. Dubya's popularity is deservedly dropping to record lows and he will be lucky if he stays out of jail or international courts.

Let's get back to this privacy issue and how it's good (to some) that the NSA is spying on Americans yet cannot catch bin Laden despite having tons of troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

well, if all his splinter-cell followers would just call him to check in, we could track the calls, "legally" and then make our move..

sorry. I'm back. I sprayed the monitor with coffee as I was typing that last part out.

Doubtful if the Dems in congress have their way. By the time the warrant is obtained the call will be ended. That is the point here. With prepaid disposable cell phones the ability to track calls to foreign countries who have a history of supporting, either overtly or covertly, terrorism is critical. The ability to record that call immediately is essential.

d*m.. a shame. because today's terrorist is tomorrow's freedom fighter is the day after's moral equivalent of our founding fathers. Or today's patriot is really tomorrow's subversive is the day after's terrorist..

thanks.. but give me the requirement of probable cause (which is still fairly subjective) and warrant (easily-granted if you talk to the right judge) every time.

This presidency is going precisely down the path that Nixon took. There's an Enemies List out there somewhere. Everyone knows it, but it hasn't come to light yet. And it's no secret that this is a with-us-or-agin-us group in the White House now.

And while the administration will swear up and down that they don't play dirty tricks <cue the memo with Cheney's handwriting instructing his subordinates to discredit Valerie Plume because her and her hubby were vocal that there were no WOMD> you just know that some political opponent's wire tap will become a tip to the IRS, or their divorce details will get leaked to some newspaper somewhere.

What's that slogan about people who give up freedom in the interests of pursuing security deserve neither? I think that's very appropriate these days.

Frankly, I think that a lot of this nonsense about us being on a wartime footing is just that - nonsense. bin Laden got in a lucky strike and now he is ineffective and basically unable to do it again. We have been listening to European and other phone calls for years. The current administration has been playing a lot of these scare tactics basically so that conservatives won't question why we invaded Iraq when bin Laden was in Afghanistan

What a mess. Thankfully, soon enough, these jokers will be out of office. Then we will have another group of scoundrels to content with

[green1]

I have a realistic view of the world, Clyde, not what you heard on Rush's show last night. I tend to read the Wall Street Journal -- Commie rag that it is -- and listen to friends and motorcycle club members (some exceptional folks who have traveled extensively and lived overseas) that are over there. I've also been shooting the breeze with a gaggle of Brits during the last few days over importing an old Land Rover.

Don't know how to tell you this, but if you think that Europe isn't what it used to be then you need to take a hard look around at your own neighborhood. Most Europeans can look forward to a retirement that isn't going to go bankrupt and health care as they age; few Americans can honestly do that and most who feel secure are naive.

Also, in case you haven't noticed the educational level in this nation is dropping like a rock (something that I see daily as I read conservatives posting their nonsense ) and the future financial powers are going to be China and India. Not the USA. We could barely hang on for the next 20-30 years and possibly keep up with the European Union if we were to seriously embrace NAFTA and combine Mexican labor with US and Canadian capital and designs, but conservatives are too busy fighting a losing battle over "heritage," Klan rights, jacked up pickup trucks, and sending hard working migrants back to Mexico to see the forest for the trees.

Frankly, it's a conservative's wet dream to tell working people in the USA that they are better off without the sorts of social supports that most Europeans receive. But hey -- your side sold you guys that weapons of mass destruction nonsense, so I guess that Barnum was right all along

Anywho, since you jokers were offended by someone else invoking the spectre of the Nazis and now that you are uncapping your Commie and socialist rhetoric, it should be interesting to see what yahoo jumps in with "Love it of leave it!"

Go and drink a beer Mon. If we ever cross paths I'll offer to buy the first round. But don't try to sell me this stuff about your view being more accurate than mine. As the most popular president of the last decade would have put it, "that dog won't hunt."

Let's take France. That Bulwark of the EU and one of the main proponents. It is interesting to see that you spoke with Brits, as they are not members of the EU. But hey. Let's get back to your points.

You say that old Europe is still strong. In January 2005 Bloomberg reported that France had a 9.9% unemployment rate the highest in 5 years attributed to the fact that they had to jack up taxes to pay for the social crutches that were threatening to bankrupt the country. And news in 2006 is only marginally better. The tax burden on individuals is still reamrkably high, again, to pay for the societal cructhes. The growth rate for 2006 is only 2.1%, with the highest growth rate in the last 10 years being 2.9%. Not somewhere I want to be.

Personally, I have no problem with people wanting to come here to work and better themsleves. It is the American dream and what has made this country great. I have a problem with borders so porous that we do not have any idea who is in this country, and that is one of the major problems I have with W.

It is interesting, if not hypocitical, that you decry name calling, and then do it yourself. Clyde? And this is your second post in a row ranting about Commies. Why?

[green1]

This presidency is going precisely down the path that Nixon took. There's an Enemies List out there somewhere. Everyone knows it, but it hasn't come to light yet. And it's no secret that this is a with-us-or-agin-us group in the White House now.

And while the administration will swear up and down that they don't play dirty tricks <cue the memo with Cheney's handwriting instructing his subordinates to discredit Valerie Plume because her and her hubby were vocal that there were no WOMD> you just know that some political opponent's wire tap will become a tip to the IRS, or their divorce details will get leaked to some newspaper somewhere.

What's that slogan about people who give up freedom in the interests of pursuing security deserve neither? I think that's very appropriate these days.

Frankly, I think that a lot of this nonsense about us being on a wartime footing is just that - nonsense. bin Laden got in a lucky strike and now he is ineffective and basically unable to do it again. We have been listening to European and other phone calls for years. The current administration has been playing a lot of these scare tactics basically so that conservatives won't question why we invaded Iraq when bin Laden was in Afghanistan

What a mess. Thankfully, soon enough, these jokers will be out of office. Then we will have another group of scoundrels to content with

I do agree with your last statement. It has become a battle of who is the lesser of the evils presented.

I don't agree that Al Quaeda is through. I believe if we let our guard down they will strike again. Why? They have shown that they will and they will escalate. Look at the attacks in the 90's attributed to Al Quaeda. First simple, single truck bombings of buildings. Then multiple truck bombings at the same time, then naval attacks, then coordinated air attacks.

The Valerie Plame argument is completely done now. She outed herself to Vanity Fair years before. Not to mention she was not covert, and had not been covert for years before the Vanity Fair article.

[RinglingRingling]

d*m.. a shame. because today's terrorist is tomorrow's freedom fighter is the day after's moral equivalent of our founding fathers. Or today's patriot is really tomorrow's subversive is the day after's terrorist..

thanks.. but give me the requirement of probable cause (which is still fairly subjective) and warrant (easily-granted if you talk to the right judge) every time.

Just to be clear, you see a moral equivalency between Washington, Jefferson, Adams and the like, the terrorists who are cutting people's heads off on international news stations? That is interesting.

Again how do you get the warrant before the phone call is complete? Your glib reply didn't answer that critical question.

a) I was quoting one of your heroes comparing the Nicaraguan "freedom fighters" to our forefathers. Read the history, avoid the sanitized version. Guerilla fighters are either terrorists, or freedom fighters depending on who ends up writing the history and what the reader wants to believe. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that victory immediately conveys sanctity of cause.

b) you don't. You don't tap phones on spur of the moment. You get the warrant first, having established probable cause for such previously. Not a glib answer. Just one that you didn't see.

[green1]

quote="green1"]Just to be clear, you see a moral equivalency between Washington, Jefferson, Adams and the like, the terrorists who are cutting people's heads off on international news stations? That is interesting.

Again how do you get the warrant before the phone call is complete? Your glib reply didn't answer that critical question.

a) I was quoting one of your heroes comparing the Nicaraguan "freedom fighters" to our forefathers. Read the history, avoid the sanitized version. Guerilla fighters are either terrorists, or freedom fighters depending on who ends up writing the history and what the reader wants to believe. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that victory immediately conveys sanctity of cause.

b) you don't. You don't tap phones on spur of the moment. You get the warrant first, having established probable cause for such previously. Not a glib answer. Just one that you didn't see.[/quote]

One of my heroes? Don't put words in my mouth.
Again you skate around the questions I posed. Do you see a moral equivalency between Washington and that guy with a knife who beheaded people on international television. Because that is what you said.

I have never said victory conveys sanctity of cause. Again you are putting words in my mouth.

Well, I am glad you have made your views clear. I am glad you are not in charge of our national defense.

[PirateJohn]

Well, "Green" ... a quick look at your posts shows you telling someone else that they "don't have a clue." And some character calling himself "Flyboy" complains that those that oppose his opinions need to "get a spine" and then he starts whining because someone equated the current administration with the Nazis (which, I might add, I see some strong parallels between the mindsets and justifications and propaganda that the Nazis engaged in and modern conservatives engage in; hey, let's invade them because they MIGHT have WOMD!! Yeah!). Moral of the story -- I'd say that you and your kind know your ways around personal attacks just as well as anyone else.

Anywho, this thread is going down the road to where I just cannot take it nor some of the opinions of the opposition seriously.

Next thing you know, you will be trying to excuse the Bushies for outting Valerie Plume. Right? In my mind, that's pretty much a position of desperation and admission that Your Boy done wrong.

[RinglingRingling]

quote="green1"]Just to be clear, you see a moral equivalency between Washington, Jefferson, Adams and the like, the terrorists who are cutting people's heads off on international news stations? That is interesting.

Again how do you get the warrant before the phone call is complete? Your glib reply didn't answer that critical question.

a) I was quoting one of your heroes comparing the Nicaraguan "freedom fighters" to our forefathers. Read the history, avoid the sanitized version. Guerilla fighters are either terrorists, or freedom fighters depending on who ends up writing the history and what the reader wants to believe. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that victory immediately conveys sanctity of cause.

b) you don't. You don't tap phones on spur of the moment. You get the warrant first, having established probable cause for such previously. Not a glib answer. Just one that you didn't see.

One of my heroes? Don't put words in my mouth.
Again you skate around the questions I posed. Do you see a moral equivalency between Washington and that guy with a knife who beheaded people on international television. Because that is what you said.

I have never said victory conveys sanctity of cause. Again you are putting words in my mouth.

Well, I am glad you have made your views clear. I am glad you are not in charge of our national defense.[/quote]

Jefferson and our Founding Fathers were insurgents, engaging in insurrection against the rightful rulers of the land at the time they decided to attempt to break away from England. I don't think that English rulers (both Parlimentarians nor the Crown) were too enthused, nor were they held in high regard in London. That they succeeded, and that you lauded them in an earlier post, is hardly putting words in your mouth. It is drawing a conclusion based on your statements.

as for me being in charge of our national defense, do not attempt to play that card. It's a deuce, and you end up with a busted flush. Two years before we got into the fiasco that is Iraq, I was pointing out the shortcomings of the Administration's plan. Oddly enough, I was right. Not something I am really proud of, but I called it turning out almost exactly the way it is now. So, were I in charge, I could probably have at least foreseen the quagmire.