NSA - They Hate Our Freedoms

[green1]

Well, "Green" ... a quick look at your posts shows you telling someone else that they "don't have a clue." And some character calling himself "Flyboy" complains that those that oppose his opinions need to "get a spine" and then he starts whining because someone equated the current administration with the Nazis (which, I might add, I see some strong parallels between the mindsets and justifications and propaganda that the Nazis engaged in and modern conservatives engage in; hey, let's invade them because they MIGHT have WOMD!! Yeah!). Moral of the story -- I'd say that you and your kind know your ways around personal attacks just as well as anyone else.

Anywho, this thread is going down the road to where I just cannot take it nor some of the opinions of the opposition seriously.

Next thing you know, you will be trying to excuse the Bushies for outting Valerie Plume. Right? In my mind, that's pretty much a position of desperation and admission that Your Boy done wrong.

Well, it's good to know that "you don't have a clue", and "get a spine" are comments of equal emphasis as calling someone a Nazi.

You are right that this thread is getting to the point where I can't take it seriously though. Thanks for bringing it here.

[green1]

Jefferson and our Founding Fathers were insurgents, engaging in insurrection against the rightful rulers of the land at the time they decided to attempt to break away from England. I don't think that English rulers (both Parlimentarians nor the Crown) were too enthused, nor were they held in high regard in London. That they succeeded, and that you lauded them in an earlier post, is hardly putting words in your mouth. It is drawing a conclusion based on your statements.

as for me being in charge of our national defense, do not attempt to play that card. It's a deuce, and you end up with a busted flush. Two years before we got into the fiasco that is Iraq, I was pointing out the shortcomings of the Administration's plan. Oddly enough, I was right. Not something I am really proud of, but I called it turning out almost exactly the way it is now. So, were I in charge, I could probably have at least foreseen the quagmire.

Again you skate the question. Do you equate our founding fathers with the guy over in Iraq cutting off someone's head on national television. You drew the comparison I am simply asking you to explain it. Will you?

Have there been any terrorist attacks on US soil since 9/11? No. That means that this administration is doing something right about them. This wire tapping is one tool in that toolbox.

Quagmaire. I have spoken with many friends who either are, or have been in both Iraq and Afghanistan and their reports are remrkably different from what you hear on the nightly news. I will take their word over yours any day.

[Sam]

Something that was not reported .... they are not "listening to everyones phones". THey do have that capability. But take a look at how many phone calls are made in any given hour on any given day.

The NSA is monitoring the numbers called and times and dates looking for patterns.


NO FORM OF ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION IS SECURE FROM MONITORING. Even secure lines with encrytions can be monitored. It may take a while to break the encryption.......and may not be cost effective for most people to do so without the proper tech and skills. Still it can take a while.

Since I am well aware of this, I have never been concerned
BTW how many people would not accept this if it was in place and could have prevented the events on 9-11???

I have no trouble with what they are doing as any telephone that is hooked up in a room can be used to to listen in on the background conversations. They have ways of monitoring conversations in rooms by using equipment to listen to the glass.
They can even monitor computer screens that are not "supposedly" protected.

All of this and more they can do and have done for years.
The NSA is authorized to do much and do it legally people do not know about and have done it for many years.
There is a military acronym for this that was put to use years ago.

Anyone remember the FORMER USSR ships that listened off our coasts?
They were there strictly to monitor electronic communications and gather information and intelligence.

The EU ( Eurpean Union) is wanting it's own form of ECHELON, They may well have it by now.
If one thinks Europe is still as grand as it was and people are not facing or have faced changes from what it was I highly suggest they do more research or move there. I personally know people that are citizens there. Maybe someone would like to tell them just how good they are getting it.

Things changed when the Iron Curtain came down.


A lot of the goverments are trying to get away from the costs of socialized medicine for example. I personally know of several people that will not get such grand treatment and retirement as they would have gotten some years ago.

Do we really want the tax base that most of the socialist countries have to pay for such? I do believe everyone needs health and dental care. I do not believe in socialized medicine.
Ever notice anything about the teeth of some Canadians or citizens in the UK? ASk them about their socialized dental insurance sometime or how it used to be.
Why do so many Canadians and others come to America for medical treatments? Ask them about waiting lists for treatment in their countries.

As for Krusin's comments about Iraq......He is quite right. Fight them there or here. It is easier to fight them in Iraq.
More terrorists in Iraq than ever before? GOOD!!! makes it easier to find them and kill them. The terrorists have no hesitation about killing you or me or anyone else. Deal with them on their level before they deal it to you.

You want to try them in courts? They don't even respect our laws, or anything else about else. You want their faith in our court systems to protect you from them... then you best either be ready for a rude awakening or be ready to lose loved ones and friends and no telling how much property.

As for Afghanistan and fighting there. Take a long hard look at History and of the terrain.
Just ask the Russians or the British about fighting in Afghanistan. They had how many years there? Just how successful were they?

Only an idiot or a fool would try to attack Afghanistan, as obviously they do not know anything about conducting warfare. How many times did the former USSR drop bombs again and again and again there? How many targets did they leave unbombed? How many targets did the U.S. bomb in Afghanistan? Just what is left to bomb? The terrain in Afghanistan is against any attacking forces and is definitely to the benefit of those holding the ground. Not to mention the porous borders that are long and people can cross freely.

If anyone has a better and realistic and viable concept of a way to fight the War on Terror then please by all means share it. Think of the lives you could save.
Until then I see the war being fought the best way we know how.
We were told in the beginning it was going to be a long drawn out war and a lot of it would be fought in shadows. WE WERE TOLD! YOU WERE TOLD.
The badguys believe America does not have the stomach for a long drawn out war. I am saddened ( but not surprized) to see some American Citizens and the Mainstream Media proving the badguys Right.
Who do they really want to win? Our troops or the badguys?

Ok that was a bit off topic. Anyone can do a search for ECHELON and find out quite a bit. They will find speculation and they will find truth. The NSA was not referred to as the "No Such Agency" since roughly it's beginnings. It was one of America's best kept secrets for well over 30 years.

But if these people that care so much about being told old news now....Why weren't they yelling about it long ago?

Besides if anyone really cares and think ECHELON is a major problem...I do not have to wonder what they would think of "CARNIVORE" that was created during the Clinton adminstration and approved of. ( it's name was later changed to make it less threatening sounding) It gives more or less the same capabilites to the FBI to read emails.

One question I will ask.....how many innocent lives are you willing to sacrifice knowing they could have been saved. Perhaps one or all or all of your loved ones?

I have said this before many many many times. The good guys HAVE TO BE Right EVERYTIME! The badguys only HAVE TO BE Right ONLY ONCE.

[flyboy55]

Just thought I'd set the historical record straight here . . .

. . .
While you might wish to maintain that Bush is just doing what Clinton did, your argument wouldn't be supported by the facts. However, I didn't start this thread to bash Bush or defend Clinton. I started this thread to bash NSA. If Bush happens to support the illegal activities of NSA and gets bashed, well I'd just call it collateral damage.

Furthermore, it isn't a question of whether or not your brother respects people in positions of authority, or obeys the instructions of police officers. The question is, should your brother (or anyone's brother or sister for that matter) submit to having his privacy regularly and routinely invaded by the government?

There is a convenient label for people who think that the needs and priviledges of the State should come before the needs and priviledges of the citizens, or that the citizens' first duty is towards the State. Back when I studied history we called these people Stalinists or Nazis. Take your pick.

. . . We all submit to government. We all surrender aspects of our privacy every day. If we didn't then wew would be living in chaos. Society would not exist as no one would be compelled to observe rules and regualtions.

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

That last bit was incorrectly attributed to me in a number of posts by someone who wasn't careful with the use of "quotes". It was actually green1 who said it in response to my post which was critical of the NSA's illegal activities.

[green1]

. . .
There is a convenient label for people who think that the needs and priviledges of the State should come before the needs and priviledges of the citizens, or that the citizens' first duty is towards the State. Back when I studied history we called these people Stalinists or Nazis. Take your pick.

. . . We all submit to government. We all surrender aspects of our privacy every day. If we didn't then wew would be living in chaos. Society would not exist as no one would be compelled to observe rules and regualtions.

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

That last bit was incorrectly attributed to me in a number of posts by someone who wasn't careful with the use of "quotes". It was actually green1 who said it in response to my post which was critical of the NSA's illegal activities.

Yes, I said I wondered how long it would take the Nazi comment to come out. In response to your use of it. Where is the confusion?

[Crazy Navy Flyer]

Thanks for the perspective, Sam. You got it right.

[bumper]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

Which of you said this? and are you saying libs throw the Nazi bomb at conservatives?

[Crazy Navy Flyer]

And the best perspective yet.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... t-opinions

[green1]

I was wondering how long the Nazi reference would take to come out. Typical, that when frustration with conservatives occur the loudest reponse is NAZI.

Which of you said this? and are you saying libs throw the Nazi bomb at conservatives?

I said it in response to flyboy's Nazi reference. Yes, I am also saying that a relatively common attack of libs on conservatives is to call them Nazi's.

[bumper]

Thanks Green.. so this is the quote ? wanna make sure I get this right..

There is a convenient label for people who think that the needs and priviledges of the State should come before the needs and priviledges of the citizens, or that the citizens' first duty is towards the State. Back when I studied history we called these people Stalinists or Nazis. Take your pick.

When we who studied history?..your high school history class?..your graduating class?, your college level history class?...It really does amaze me how some on the left..who scream about labeleling others as unfair, unwarranted and inappropriate are so quick to smack a label on those disagreeing with their perspective...I am guessing in this case...left labeling the right....Already been there with Soraya and her idiotic thought like processes...and then this to make a comparison to an organzation that annihilated 6 million people. Check yerself flyboy before tossing out your ill thought out propaganda. Guess you missed the critical thinking class

[Sam]

Thanks for the perspective, Sam. You got it right.

Thxz,Bro! Appreciate that! I feel of more people felt that way the terrorists would not have such a high morale and if the Mainstream media were to be less biased in their so called news ( At least 3 reporters and one ABC vice President have admitted they anot telling us the whole truth or showing us the full picture of the war on terror) and makes wonder whose side they are on when they are suppose to be in the middle.

Some troops have have referred to the media as media ghouls. As the media only wants to see them wounded, bleeding and dying, while ignoring the accomplisnments and positive things they have done.

If the mainstream media were to show these accomplishments and mission completes,rather than trying to sabotage the whole war efforts, I think a lot of people would have a different outlook on the war and hpw it is persued.
This includes the misleading "news" about the NSA actively listening in on supposed private phone conversations.

People with scanners can monitor wireless calls. I had an AM/FM/TV band radio and I could pick up pager messages and some of the cordless phone calls with it without knowing that I could do it.

As for what the NSA is doing.... they are saving countless lives. If they save only one life, isn't that enough? After all what $$$ value can be placed on a human life? Let alone the pain and suffering and loss of a loved one?

How many of those who have lost loved ones or been victims of a terrorist, would not have gladly had this and/or other measures in place prevent the attacks from happening?

All I see is this is further dividing of "WE THE PEOPLE", thus making it easier for the badguys and harder for us to succeed.

We need to stand strong together and remain focused, throughout this war.
We need to remember who started this war.
We need to remember they want to kill us.
We need to remember they want to destroy our way of life.
We need to remember what they have done to us so many times.
We need to remember 9/11 like we do 7 Dec and not let such events happen again.
We need to remember why we are fighting these terrorists.
We need to stand together and united in the war on terror.

I don't hear many people openly proclaiming to do any of that.
But they are out there and they know it. They not as vocal about it, nor do they get attention of the mainstream media that the "anti war" and so called "peace advocates" get so much of.
Those who want Peace at any Price deserve what they get.
The Price of Freedom has always been High.

We have seen in here these fanatical terrorists referred to as "Freedom Fighters". Yeah, well perhaps they are most correct.... the terrorist are definitely fighting against OUR FREEDOM and OUR way of Life and no doubt the Freedoms so many that are against the War on Terror.

I won't even bother to consider how long such people would last under the rule/ leadership of such terrorists and they do not seem to care, they would not have the Freedom to even voice their opinions against it...

[flyboy55]

Thanks Green.. so this is the quote ? wanna make sure I get this right..

There is a convenient label for people who think that the needs and priviledges of the State should come before the needs and priviledges of the citizens, or that the citizens' first duty is towards the State. Back when I studied history we called these people Stalinists or Nazis. Take your pick.

When we who studied history?..your high school history class?..your graduating class?, your college level history class?...It really does amaze me how some on the left..who scream about labeleling others as unfair, unwarranted and inappropriate are so quick to smack a label on those disagreeing with their perspective...I am guessing in this case...left labeling the right....Already been there with Soraya and her idiotic thought like processes...and then this to make a comparison to an organzation that annihilated 6 million people. Check yerself flyboy before tossing out your ill thought out propaganda. Guess you missed the critical thinking class

Anyone who thinks(?) that the needs and priviledges of the State come before those of the citizens who comprise that State has travelled far down the road to the type of States that the Nazis and Stalinists constructed.

As the executive branch of our government continues to set aside the constitutional framework on which our society is based, and continues to justify ANY and ALL transgressions against the freedoms and rights of the citizens of this country by invoking national security and patriotism, we march (goosestep?) further down that well-trod road to tyranny and fascism. I stand by my previous comment about Nazis and Stalinists.

To paraphrase a wise American from an earlier Revolutionary time: "those who would trade away their liberty for security deserve neither one". This sentiment was never truer or more applicable than today, when folks are apparently willing to give up any amount of freedom and liberty in order to be kept "safe" from terrorists.

Some people say "whatever the government does, if it saves just one life or prevents just one terrorist attack, it's worth it". Really? Whatever the government wants?

My grasp of history is sound. Perhaps you need to spend some time evaluating your own understanding of history and maybe give your own critical thinking skills a workout while you're at it.

[SMLCHNG]

[green1]

Anyone who thinks(?) that the needs and priviledges of the State come before those of the citizens who comprise that State has travelled far down the road to the type of States that the Nazis and Stalinists constructed.

As the executive branch of our government continues to set aside the constitutional framework on which our society is based, and continues to justify ANY and ALL transgressions against the freedoms and rights of the citizens of this country by invoking national security and patriotism, we march (goosestep?) further down that well-trod road to tyranny and fascism. I stand by my previous comment about Nazis and Stalinists.

To paraphrase a wise American from an earlier Revolutionary time: "those who would trade away their liberty for security deserve neither one". This sentiment was never truer or more applicable than today, when folks are apparently willing to give up any amount of freedom and liberty in order to be kept "safe" from terrorists.

Some people say "whatever the government does, if it saves just one life or prevents just one terrorist attack, it's worth it". Really? Whatever the government wants?

My grasp of history is sound. Perhaps you need to spend some time evaluating your own understanding of history and maybe give your own critical thinking skills a workout while you're at it.

Wow you just love throwing out the insults don't you. So anyone who disagrees must, by your logic, want to live in a Nazi or Stalinist state.

But again I will pose my first question as you have not answered it, and I will supply background. FISA signed into law by Carter allows the president to tap phone calls without a warrant. I even included the section and code of the law. Where was the outcry? Not to be heard.

The courts have upheld this ruling time and again. Outcry? Nope

Every president from Carter to W have used this. Clinton even ordered Echelon. I even included the 60 minutes article about it. Where was the outcry then? Nowhere.

No Bush, a Republican is in office. Someone that the left hates. Now FISA and the tapping it allows are being called illegal. Now the screaming commences.

Tell me. In the last 25 years have the US secret police come knocking on your door? Chances are you had a phone conversation taped, adn lsitened to by a person. Now the technology exists where the conversations are not listened to by people. But by computers looking for certain words, phrases or phone numbers or locations being called. This is probably the least intrusive means of collecting data that has been used since FISA was signed in. Yet you are screaming now.

So answer me, why are you screaming now and not 8 years ago when the wiretapping was more complete, intrusive and less targeted? You have not done so.

Secondly I would like and apology. Your analogy of the current administration and it's legal wiretapping as compared to a non-elected tyranny that killed 6 million people because of their religion is grossly offensive.

[bumper]

Feelers like Flyboy "feel" comparing the most extreme cases in history, IE, Nazism and Stalinism to present day circumstances gives them the comparative edge while at the same time attracting attention to their point. Problem is they confuse the comparison with being just while at the same time their real point is lost in the extremist comparison. At least in this instance he has been intellectually dishonest making any future opinions by him at the very least, suspect.

And extremist don't offer apologies..they see it as your problem.

[Crazy Navy Flyer]

Anyone who thinks(?) that the needs and priviledges of the State come before those of the citizens who comprise that State has travelled far down the road to the type of States that the Nazis and Stalinists constructed.

As the executive branch of our government continues to set aside the constitutional framework on which our society is based, and continues to justify ANY and ALL transgressions against the freedoms and rights of the citizens of this country by invoking national security and patriotism, we march (goosestep?) further down that well-trod road to tyranny and fascism. I stand by my previous comment about Nazis and Stalinists.

To paraphrase a wise American from an earlier Revolutionary time: "those who would trade away their liberty for security deserve neither one". This sentiment was never truer or more applicable than today, when folks are apparently willing to give up any amount of freedom and liberty in order to be kept "safe" from terrorists.

Some people say "whatever the government does, if it saves just one life or prevents just one terrorist attack, it's worth it". Really? Whatever the government wants?

My grasp of history is sound. Perhaps you need to spend some time evaluating your own understanding of history and maybe give your own critical thinking skills a workout while you're at it.

Wow you just love throwing out the insults don't you. So anyone who disagrees must, by your logic, want to live in a Nazi or Stalinist state.

But again I will pose my first question as you have not answered it, and I will supply background. FISA signed into law by Carter allows the president to tap phone calls without a warrant. I even included the section and code of the law. Where was the outcry? Not to be heard.

The courts have upheld this ruling time and again. Outcry? Nope

Every president from Carter to W have used this. Clinton even ordered Echelon. I even included the 60 minutes article about it. Where was the outcry then? Nowhere.

No Bush, a Republican is in office. Someone that the left hates. Now FISA and the tapping it allows are being called illegal. Now the screaming commences.

Tell me. In the last 25 years have the US secret police come knocking on your door? Chances are you had a phone conversation taped, adn lsitened to by a person. Now the technology exists where the conversations are not listened to by people. But by computers looking for certain words, phrases or phone numbers or locations being called. This is probably the least intrusive means of collecting data that has been used since FISA was signed in. Yet you are screaming now.

So answer me, why are you screaming now and not 8 years ago when the wiretapping was more complete, intrusive and less targeted? You have not done so.

Secondly I would like and apology. Your analogy of the current administration and it's legal wiretapping as compared to a non-elected tyranny that killed 6 million people because of their religion is grossly offensive.

Well said, green. You too bumper.

flyboy's agenda is anti-Bush and I doubt you'll receive an apology. If you look at his first post in this thread he makes it sound like big brother is listening to your phone calls, and we know that is not the case, it's just his way of trying to make the administration look bad by using a lie, typical liberal tactic. They are not listening to the calls, just keeping track of calls made.

If you remember his previous threads and polls they are all anti-Bush, using lies and half truths to make his point. He is obviously very young and gullible or out of touch with reality. He is blinded by his hatred for the President and the current administration, brainwashed by michaelmoore and the moveon.org crowd, notice he uses their emotion filled rhetoric on occassion.

Nope, I don't see an apology coming.

[SchoolGirlHeart]

So, if this administration is made up of Nazis, I guess I would be considered something analagous to an SS lieutenant.

"Grossly offended" doesn't even begin to cover it..........

[OystersandBeer]

Crazy Navy Flyer, how old do you mean when you say he is obviously very young?

[flyboy55]

Crazy Navy Flyer, how old do you mean when you say he is obviously very young?

I think he meant under sixty.

[par8hdwood]

I'm 25 and support the President. But more than that, I am an American who supports this country no matter what. I'm sick of the hypocritical anit-Bush bashers that would be praising Clinton had he done the same things. Instead they insist on printing lies and covering foreign policy only the way that backs their agendas. Either you are an American or your not. There is nothing wrong with having different opinions, God knows I don't agree with everything the President does, but enough is enough. Quit dishonoring the men and women who have died just so you can speak freely!