Shock and Awe: Israeli Style

In this forum you can discuss anything from sports, news, or what ever is on your mind.

Moderator: SMLCHNG

flyboy55
I Love the Now!
Posts: 1788
Joined: August 29, 2005 11:05 pm
Number of Concerts: 3
Location: On the Road . . .

Shock and Awe: Israeli Style

Post by flyboy55 »

Is anybody else fed up with the simplistic rationalizations military leaders with so-called "precision guided bombs" who slaughter innocents and then write them off as "collateral damage".
QANA, Lebanon - Abu Shadi Jradi pulled bodies out of wreckage for hours — two toddler girls wearing tiny gold earrings, a small boy whose pale blue pacifier still hung from his neck. Somewhere in the middle, Jradi slumped beneath a tree and wept.

“There are so many children, so many children,” the veteran civil defense worker said Sunday, barely able to get out the words.

The dead still had signs of their last moments, when dozens of members of the Shalhoub and Hashem families had gathered together for shelter and company during another night of Israeli bombardment. Kids wore the shorts and T-shirts they slept in. One body was wrapped in a child’s bed sheet covered with Raggedy Ann and Andy figures.
Qana was a target before.
Local Lebanese quickly branded the strike “Qana’s second massacre.” In April 1996, Israeli shells hit a U.N. peacekeepers’ compound where 800 Lebanese had taken refuge during another offensive against Hezbollah, called Operation Grapes of Wrath. The shelling killed 106 refugees. Israel said at the time Hezbollah fighters had slipped into the U.N. compound.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14109907/


Another example of the disregard the Israelis have for innocent bystanders in their pursuit of their enemies.

By their own actions, the Israelis have made it crystal clear that the lives of innocent civilians are expendable (and therefore worth precisely nothing) in the current conflict.

Death toll since Israeli offensive began:
Over 600 in Lebanon - almost entirely innocent civilians
Over 50 in Israel - almost entirely soldiers.

Our unconditional support for Israeli actions means that we too have the blood of these innocents on our hands.
bravedave
At the Bama Breeze
Posts: 4285
Joined: January 16, 2002 7:00 pm

Re: Shock and Awe: Israeli Style

Post by bravedave »

flyboy55 wrote:Death toll since Israeli offensive began:
Over 600 in Lebanon - almost entirely innocent civilians *
Over 50 in Israel - almost entirely soldiers.
Would it be a "fair fight" if the numbers killed in Israel were more like the ones in Lebanon?

This poster is propoganda, but it portrays a truth nonetheless.
Image
Hezbollah employs the age-old terrorist tactic of hiding behind sympathetic civilians while targeting civilians. The IDF stands between the Hezbollah and innocent civilians and targets terrorists. The IDF uses better weaponry and tactics to further their purposes. The terrorists use unguided rockets and hit-and-run techniques, which are more like publicity tools that warfare tactics.

It ain't wrong to be better at what you do than the bad guys.

* I'm sure that Hezbollah has been truthful and forthcoming about the number of terrorists killed. It's no secret who has been killed in Israel. :roll:
“Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world.”
- Kaiser Welhelm

"The call is a loud wulli-wulli, and there is much twittering at the drinking holes."
cocotel
On a Salty Piece of Land
Posts: 10257
Joined: March 21, 2006 11:06 am
Favorite Buffett Song: Migration
Number of Concerts: 21
Location: Laughing is my game. Your move.

Post by cocotel »

While it's appaling to see what is happening in both countries it is oh so true what bravedave has just posted here.

Has Israel gone too far?
Probably so.
But in all reality it has been a long time coming.
They have given up so much and it always comes back to bite them with the attitude of "What can you do for me right now."
Image
flyboy55
I Love the Now!
Posts: 1788
Joined: August 29, 2005 11:05 pm
Number of Concerts: 3
Location: On the Road . . .

Post by flyboy55 »

If domestic law enforcement were to use the same tactics the Israelis use, they would be chasing suspect criminals into shopping malls and opening fire on them with automatic weapons, consequences be d*mned.

Is this not the equivalent of taking down an entire apartment block in downtown Beirut because your intel says Hezbollah fighters have a few rooms on the tenth floor?

(and you are right, that image is propaganda).
flyboy55
I Love the Now!
Posts: 1788
Joined: August 29, 2005 11:05 pm
Number of Concerts: 3
Location: On the Road . . .

Post by flyboy55 »

cocotel wrote:While it's appaling to see what is happening in both countries it is oh so true what bravedave has just posted here.

Has Israel gone too far?
Probably so.
But in all reality it has been a long time coming.
They have given up so much and it always comes back to bite them with the attitude of "What can you do for me right now."
Are you saying the Israelis have given up so much?

I disagree. IMO, the reason the Israeli/Palestinian problem has dragged on for decades is because the Israelis have been systematically disenfranchising the Palestinians and carving up what remains of a future Palestinian state for the use and benefit of Israel.

A brief search of published opinions in Israel itself will show that many Israelis agree with me.
green1
Hoot!
Posts: 2439
Joined: March 13, 2006 2:49 pm

Post by green1 »

flyboy55 wrote:Are you saying the Israelis have given up so much?

I disagree. IMO, the reason the Israeli/Palestinian problem has dragged on for decades is because the Israelis have been systematically disenfranchising the Palestinians and carving up what remains of a future Palestinian state for the use and benefit of Israel.

A brief search of published opinions in Israel itself will show that many Israelis agree with me.
And yet Israel is the only country in the Middle East where muslims and Jews serve side by side in the government. How is this disenfranchisement? Oh right, they tell the muslims that in order for them to live peacefully, the muslims must allows the jewish people to live peacefully.

In short, none of this current affair would have even begun if the terrorists based in Lebanon did not cross the border illegally into Israel and capture two Israeli soldiers.
bravedave
At the Bama Breeze
Posts: 4285
Joined: January 16, 2002 7:00 pm

Post by bravedave »

flyboy55 wrote:If domestic law enforcement were to use the same tactics the Israelis use, they would be chasing suspect criminals into shopping malls and opening fire on them with automatic weapons, consequences be d*mned.
The foriegn policy of the United States has failed us in the past solely because we chose to treat terrorism as a crime and not as an act of war.
flyboy55 wrote:(and you are right, ...).
No problem, I hear that all the time...
:lol:
“Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world.”
- Kaiser Welhelm

"The call is a loud wulli-wulli, and there is much twittering at the drinking holes."
cocotel
On a Salty Piece of Land
Posts: 10257
Joined: March 21, 2006 11:06 am
Favorite Buffett Song: Migration
Number of Concerts: 21
Location: Laughing is my game. Your move.

Post by cocotel »

flyboy55 wrote:
cocotel wrote:While it's appaling to see what is happening in both countries it is oh so true what bravedave has just posted here.

Has Israel gone too far?
Probably so.
But in all reality it has been a long time coming.
They have given up so much and it always comes back to bite them with the attitude of "What can you do for me right now."
Are you saying the Israelis have given up so much?

I disagree. IMO, the reason the Israeli/Palestinian problem has dragged on for decades is because the Israelis have been systematically disenfranchising the Palestinians and carving up what remains of a future Palestinian state for the use and benefit of Israel.

A brief search of published opinions in Israel itself will show that many Israelis agree with me.
While I certainly will not push back and forth on this issue I see your point. I may not agree but I see it.
We all can go on and on, back and forth all day on this issue.
I see it my way, you see it yours.
Image
flyboy55
I Love the Now!
Posts: 1788
Joined: August 29, 2005 11:05 pm
Number of Concerts: 3
Location: On the Road . . .

Post by flyboy55 »

green1 wrote:
flyboy55 wrote:Are you saying the Israelis have given up so much?

I disagree. IMO, the reason the Israeli/Palestinian problem has dragged on for decades is because the Israelis have been systematically disenfranchising the Palestinians and carving up what remains of a future Palestinian state for the use and benefit of Israel.

A brief search of published opinions in Israel itself will show that many Israelis agree with me.
And yet Israel is the only country in the Middle East where muslims and Jews serve side by side in the government. How is this disenfranchisement? Oh right, they tell the muslims that in order for them to live peacefully, the muslims must allows the jewish people to live peacefully.

In short, none of this current affair would have even begun if the terrorists based in Lebanon did not cross the border illegally into Israel and capture two Israeli soldiers.
The reason there are elected representatives in the Israeli Knesset, who are Palestinian and Muslim, is because when Israel was created after WWII, the land in question was already the home of a significant number of Palestinians.

The Palestinians legislators in the Israeli Knesset have joined the international community (with the notable exception of the U.S.) in calling for a ceasefire and a halt to Israeli bombing of Lebanon.
green1
Hoot!
Posts: 2439
Joined: March 13, 2006 2:49 pm

Post by green1 »

flyboy55 wrote:The reason there are elected representatives in the Israeli Knesset, who are Palestinian and Muslim, is because when Israel was created after WWII, the land in question was already the home of a significant number of Palestinians.

The Palestinians legislators in the Israeli Knesset have joined the international community (with the notable exception of the U.S.) in calling for a ceasefire and a halt to Israeli bombing of Lebanon.
And yet, Israel has not arrested them for treason. Has not deported them. Still values their input as members of the Knesset. Thanks for proving my point. Although I did notice that you were silent about the cause of the current state of affairs.

Why should the US call for a ceasefire? That will give the terrorists who caused this their stamp of approval. This is precisely what they are hoping for.

I saw an interview with a Hezbollah high mucky-muck. At least I think he was with Hezbollah. He said that they were surprised at the response from Israel because it was "only two soldiers". This is the mentality we are fighting. If it is, truly, "only two soldiers" then why don't they return them?
flyboy55
I Love the Now!
Posts: 1788
Joined: August 29, 2005 11:05 pm
Number of Concerts: 3
Location: On the Road . . .

Post by flyboy55 »

My point (and I do have one) remains the same - innocent civilians are dying in large numbers in Lebanon because Israel chooses to see Lebanon as a "free fire zone" in which to pursue its enemies.
cocotel
On a Salty Piece of Land
Posts: 10257
Joined: March 21, 2006 11:06 am
Favorite Buffett Song: Migration
Number of Concerts: 21
Location: Laughing is my game. Your move.

Post by cocotel »

flyboy55 wrote:My point (and I do have one) remains the same - innocent civilians are dying in large numbers in Lebanon because Israel chooses to see Lebanon as a "free fire zone" in which to pursue its enemies.
As did Hezbollah.
Image
green1
Hoot!
Posts: 2439
Joined: March 13, 2006 2:49 pm

Post by green1 »

flyboy55 wrote:My point (and I do have one) remains the same - innocent civilians are dying in large numbers in Lebanon because Israel chooses to see Lebanon as a "free fire zone" in which to pursue its enemies.
And my point (I have one as well) remains the same that if the government of Lebanon wants this to stop, force Hezbollah to return the Israeli soldiers.
flyboy55
I Love the Now!
Posts: 1788
Joined: August 29, 2005 11:05 pm
Number of Concerts: 3
Location: On the Road . . .

Post by flyboy55 »

cocotel wrote:
flyboy55 wrote:My point (and I do have one) remains the same - innocent civilians are dying in large numbers in Lebanon because Israel chooses to see Lebanon as a "free fire zone" in which to pursue its enemies.
As did Hezbollah.
I think you just equated the Israelis with Hezbollah.
flyboy55
I Love the Now!
Posts: 1788
Joined: August 29, 2005 11:05 pm
Number of Concerts: 3
Location: On the Road . . .

Post by flyboy55 »

green1 wrote:
flyboy55 wrote:My point (and I do have one) remains the same - innocent civilians are dying in large numbers in Lebanon because Israel chooses to see Lebanon as a "free fire zone" in which to pursue its enemies.
And my point (I have one as well) remains the same that if the government of Lebanon wants this to stop, force Hezbollah to return the Israeli soldiers.
If you knew more about the region, you would realize that the Lebanese government can't force Hezbollah to do anything.

With regard to what people call the "current state of affairs", it is misleading to suggest that Hezbollah started it all when they kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. The Israelis have been making missile strikes into southern Lebanon for months, assassinating Hezbollah leaders in the same way they have continued to make aerial attacks into Gaza and other Palestinian areas to assassinate Hamas leaders there.
green1
Hoot!
Posts: 2439
Joined: March 13, 2006 2:49 pm

Post by green1 »

flyboy55 wrote:If you knew more about the region, you would realize that the Lebanese government can't force Hezbollah to do anything.

With regard to what people call the "current state of affairs", it is misleading to suggest that Hezbollah started it all when they kidnapped two Israeli soldiers. The Israelis have been making missile strikes into southern Lebanon for months, assassinating Hezbollah leaders in the same way they have continued to make aerial attacks into Gaza and other Palestinian areas to assassinate Hamas leaders there.
OK, if what you say is true, then why is Lebanon concerned about an area of the world where they exercise no authority.

Israel makes the strikes after they are attacked by terrorists or are you simply choosing to ignore that there is provocation on the part of the terrorists? Yes, those peace loving Hamas and hezbollah people never did anything to Israel. Well there is that unfortunate statement about detroying Israel, and then there were the suicide bombings in the middle of market places notably not military bases, and let's not forget the peace agreement that Clinton brokeres that lastest as long as it took Arafat to get home before he OK'd another round of attacks.
cocotel
On a Salty Piece of Land
Posts: 10257
Joined: March 21, 2006 11:06 am
Favorite Buffett Song: Migration
Number of Concerts: 21
Location: Laughing is my game. Your move.

Post by cocotel »

flyboy55 wrote:
cocotel wrote:
flyboy55 wrote:My point (and I do have one) remains the same - innocent civilians are dying in large numbers in Lebanon because Israel chooses to see Lebanon as a "free fire zone" in which to pursue its enemies.
As did Hezbollah.
I think you just equated the Israelis with Hezbollah.
Your words not mine.

Fact here is this: You either believe it for what it is or you don't.
Anti-semitic behavior is all over. It's simply amazing that the worlds leaders, United Nations and Nato come down on Israel all the time as hard as they do but when a suicide bomber blows himself up in a crowded marketplace he's portrayed as the martyr the terrorists want him to be seen as.
I said I wasn't going to get too deep into this but I guess I have.

In the end here as we speak there are civilian casualties mounting on both sides.
Life is life. It is a precious gift both sides are taking for granted.
Humans are being displaced, killed, wounded.
These are the facts.

The only point I really wanted to make is this: Israel never seems to do anything right in the world's eyes.
Image
green1
Hoot!
Posts: 2439
Joined: March 13, 2006 2:49 pm

Post by green1 »

flyboy55 wrote:If you knew more about the region
So are you aware of my studies? You presume too much and, in this case, you are out of your depth.

With that, I am done with this thread. You won't change my mind, nor will I yours.
Crazy Navy Flyer
On a Salty Piece of Land
Posts: 11425
Joined: May 11, 2002 8:00 pm
Number of Concerts: 100
Favorite Boat Drink: rum
Location: Pensacola

Post by Crazy Navy Flyer »

The biggest difference is that Hezbollah targets civilians, densly populated civilian areas. That's what terrorists, muslim extremists do. While the media was bashing Isreal for killing civilians yesterday Hezbollah fired over 100 missles into civilian targets in Isreal. Hezbollah uses human shields and targets civilians, Isreal targets Hezbollah, missle sites, rocket launchers and ammo storage areas that Hezbollah has hidden among civilians. The civilians in Qana were warned before the attack that it was coming, of those that didn't leave many were killed. It's sad but unfortuantely that's what happens in war. It was a great day for the Islamic Jihad, great publicity.

Many protests against Isreal, why not Hezbollah?

A cease fire would only allow Hezbollah to rearm. Isreal should keep the pressure on.
Back to livin' Floridays
NYCPORT
Minister of Entertainment
Posts: 6108
Joined: August 28, 2001 8:00 pm
Favorite Buffett Song: Cowboy In The Jungle
Number of Concerts: 106
Favorite Boat Drink: Yes please...
Location: Shallow end of the gene pool

Post by NYCPORT »

The reason the building was accidentally bombed is because the terrorists put the rocket launchers right next to the building hoping that something like this would happen and simpletons like you would start thinking like you currently are! The people who were killed were told by radio and dropped leaflets that they were in danger because of how close they were to the launchers.
Get a clue. :roll:
If we're lucky they will get the chance to wipe every one of those cockroaches off the face of the earth and EVERYONE will be better off for it!
Image

I'm back to livin' Floridays
Blue skies and ultra-violet rays
Lookin' for better days, lookin' for better days
Lookin' for Floridays

27 - 8
Post Reply