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We had Labs most of my life.. We got this one as an adult.
my Dad would find a puppy most times.

He was a killer.. straight up.. He was mean..
unless it was around the Kids.. He was number one bodyguard..
you did not even talk in a loud tone to them..

most Labs are pretty calm and laid back.. I think He had something
happen to him as a puppy/young dog.
and strong?? He could break a 2x4 with just a twist of his neck..

so my point??

there are bad dogs from every breed. But they are made not born.

No doubt, pit bulls get a lot of publicity these days. I'd read a series recently in the Chicago Tribune about a horrific and tragic occurrence with pit bulls from several months back. I was going to post a link to it but just couldn't quite do it after reading about Moog and Raspy's recent misadventures...but if you're interested, here it is: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/spec ... 29.special .

Anyway, one thing they said in the article is the breed was created solely as a fighting breed from a mix of bull dog (for fighting and strength) and terriers (for endurance and tenacity). And, lineage is a very important factor in identifying dogs that may potentially be dangerous.

My next door neighbors (wonderful folks) have a dog they'd gotten for their son (who's now 23 and living elsewhere) from the Humane Society a few years back. "Jackson" is a pit bull mix. He's always had a lot of "guard dog" in him and has been quite aggressive over the fence, so I never reach over to pet him (as I've done with the other dogs they've had). He'd gotten out of their yard a couple times and I'd called him back over, and he got rather aggressive towards me the second time, so I told the neighbors I can't help on that any more. However, if he knows I've been invited into their yard or house, he's usually friendly and mellow and I pet him.

Earlier this week my neighbor (Mary) invited me over for a glass of tea. She let me in the house and Jackson had been in the yard and didn't see me come in....so in the kitchen when he saw me he started towards me growling and barking...I jumped and Mary gave him a whack and told him "no" (she was between Jackson and me...good thing). And he backed off.... But I'm always very careful around him and won't house sit for him. And I know he's been rather aggressive with some other folks, too. Mary's a very sympathetic person, so she can't bear not to keep him. I just watch out and hope he never turns on anyone badly.

I really like dogs (except the ones that aren't leashed and chase after me when I'm out running.... ); I grew up with them and enjoy most breeds. I just have to question the wisdom in wanting a breed that was created to fight.... The lineage for some may be better-tempered than for others, but it's still a risky breed....

And perhaps like many things people have created in this world, just because they exist doesn't mean they should be kept...(agent orange, falidimide, sarin...).

I agree with what's been said about any dog having the potential to be a "bad" dog.

Also when you have a "popular" breed there are a lot of unsavory breeders out there that will inbreed the dogs which can ultimately result in dogs that have either physical or mental issues. I believe this is part of the reason pits have become "problem" dogs. If you have a dog that is bred to be a fighter and throw in inbreeding you're bound to have troubles.

With that being said I'm cautious around pits.

What's being said about pit bulls here could be said about chow chows.

Every breed has a temperment, and the way they are raised can influence the temperment, positively or negatively. I would never own a pit.

However, a few years ago, I'd have said I'd never own a chow, and I have one now. We got him as a 4-week-old puppy (abandoned on a busy street), and he had serious biting, growling and aggression tendencies. I'd always had sweet collies, so this was new territory. I purposely didn't take many cute little puppy pictures of him because I was not sure we could keep him, and he'd be put down if he did not improve. I had to work very hard to make him the sweet teddy-bear he is now.

Even so, he does NOT like strangers, especially children. I have to make sure he is on this leash and completely under my control when I am walking him near children, and I have to often get between them and him when they come running up to him. They sometimes hardly listen until I tell them he WILL bite. He just looks like a lovable bear.

That said, once someone is accepted as a part of our "pack," such as my brothers who come to visit or my son's friends, they are always accepted by him, and he is more loyal to me and my family than any dog we've ever had. He's my constant companion, lying at my feet wherever I am, and my walking buddy every day. Still, I know I have to watch him like a hawk around strangers, and when the doorbell rings!

Quiet and Shy wrote:And perhaps like many things people have created in this world, just because they exist doesn't mean they should be kept...(agent orange, falidimide, sarin...).

So what's the solution? Mass killing of all pit bulls and other breeds deemed to be dangerous, along with any dog that might genetically be related to these breeds?

Sadly, I can see a vigilante mindset developing...folks taking it upon themselves to rid the world of pit bulls, and innocent dogs being killed as a result....not to mention the very real possiblity of innocent people being killed as well.

Thankfully there are rescue organizations that will take these dogs and let them live out their lives...but there aren't nearly enough for all the dogs that would be affected by such a decision.

There is no easy answer....

I think all pet owners should be ultimately responsible for their pets' actions.

Your dog kills a kid? Serve a manslaughter sentence. Your cat gets in my yard and ruins my garden? Trespassing.

It would keep the irresponsible pet owners (hopefully) from owning pets, and the responsible ones wouldn't have to worry.

Brown Eyed Girl wrote:

Quiet and Shy wrote:And perhaps like many things people have created in this world, just because they exist doesn't mean they should be kept...(agent orange, falidimide, sarin...).

So what's the solution? Mass killing of all pit bulls and other breeds deemed to be dangerous, along with any dog that might genetically be related to these breeds?

Sadly, I can see a vigilante mindset developing...folks taking it upon themselves to rid the world of pit bulls, and innocent dogs being killed as a result....not to mention the very real possiblity of innocent people being killed as well.

Thankfully there are rescue organizations that will take these dogs and let them live out their lives...but there aren't nearly enough for all the dogs that would be affected by such a decision.

There is no easy answer....

I don't know that there is a good or easy answer...it's a very tough situation.

Perhaps the starting point is to have extremely tight regulations created and enforced re. the lineage and breeding of pit bulls...enforced by an independent authority...but paid for by those who want to see the breed continue on.... This could at least start to put a dent in the genetic/hereditary issues they carry; the environmental (training/owner) issue is yet another can of worms.

That's Balto- pit/boxer/lab mix. Notice I am no further than a foot away from them....not because he is a pit.....but because he is a DOG.

EVERY dog owner needs to be responsible. Especially where children are concerned. NO dog should ever be left unattended with ANY young children. Period. Parents also need to take responsibility.

Case in point....I had Balto at the park. Van pulls up. Two kids, about 6 and 9 get out and run over to him, arms waving. They want to hug him. Strange dog, never seen him before. I told them to stop. Parent, still getting out of the car, does nothing to stop the children. I tell them to stop again, while trying to calm an excited Balto, since there are kids running, screaming at him. They proceeded to hug him, try and jump on him. I kept backing up with him. I informed the father (when he finally got to where his kids were) that they ARE going to get bit. Thank God, Balto has been around children and didn't hurt them. But had he accidentally scratched them, I would have been sued and he would have probably put down. It's just wrong. So wrong.

I will say that pits can be more stubborn and take a determined, stable person to train them and handle them properly.

carey24 wrote:


That's Balto- pit/boxer/lab mix. Notice I am no further than a foot away from them.

EVERY dog owner needs to be responsible. Especially where children are concerned. NO dog should ever be left unattended with ANY young children. Period. Parents also need to take responsibility.

Case in point....I had Balto at the park. Van pulls up. Two kids, about 6 and 9 get out and run over to him, arms waving. They want to hug him. Strange dog, never seen him before. I told them to stop. Parent, still getting out of the car, does nothing to stop the children. I tell them to stop again, while trying to calm an excited Balto, since there are kids running, screaming at him. They proceeded to hug him, try and jump on him. I kept backing up with him. I informed the father (when he finally got to where his kids were) that they ARE going to get bit. Thank God, Balto has been around children and didn't hurt them. But had he accidentally scratched them, I would have been sued and he would have probably put down. It's just wrong. So wrong.

I will say that pits can be more stubborn and take a determined, stable person to train them and handle them properly.

I like that pic carey!!!

irishcajunphan wrote:....I've been bitten by poodles, chihuahuas, dachsunds, and cockers. I've had my shoulder separated by labs and bulldogs. I've been pinned in a field by a rottie and run over by a few labs and boxers who used me as a fun thing to knock down in a field....

Do you work with animals, or are you just that unlucky??

carey brings up a great point......I agree wholeheartedly that animal owners need to be held responsible for the pets.....but it is also important that people teach their kids how to act around animals.....even if you don't have pets.

My dogs don't particularly like kids, especially ones that get right in their face and make a lot of noise....perhaps they get that from me My kids and grandkids have been taught how to treat my dogs and there's not a problem. When I am walking my dogs, though.....kids come up to them all of the time because they're little and cute, but sometimes I think they are pit bull terriers trapped in jack russell terrier bodies....parents will just stand there while their kids run up to my dogs.
If I put my dogs on a down/stay or sit before the kids come up to them and the kids are nice, they're greeted with wags and kisses....if the kids come running up like little cyclones....the greeting is not so friendly....they're never bitten, but they're pretty vocal. My dogs are never off lead when we are out in public, so it's not like there isn't an opportunity to ask me first.

I've always taught my kids that you ASK the owner first if you can pet or play with their dog.

pbans wrote:
I've always taught my kids that you ASK the owner first if you can pet or play with their dog.

That's what I've always taught my kids, too. You don't pet dogs you don't know, and you always ask if it's ok to play/pet the dog. You never, ever play with or try to help (by yourself) an animal whose owner isn't nearby.

We're very lucky. All the dogs on our street are extremely kid-friendly. My son is 2 1/2, and he's definitely not completely dog-friendly yet.

Quiet and Shy wrote:Perhaps the starting point is to have extremely tight regulations created and enforced re. the lineage and breeding of pit bulls...

Brilliant idea. In fact, I know some parents who have raised disobedient, destructive little kids. I say we put them down and keep their parents from breeding as well.

But seriously, we are talking about a species that humans have forced to become domesticated. The same goes for cats. I've been scratched and bitten by cats more than any dog. Think we should police cats and require they all be de-clawed?

land_shark3 wrote:

Quiet and Shy wrote:Perhaps the starting point is to have extremely tight regulations created and enforced re. the lineage and breeding of pit bulls...

Brilliant idea. In fact, I know some parents who have raised disobedient, destructive little kids. I say we put them down and keep their parents from breeding as well.

works for me.....esp the keeping the parents from breeding part.

As an adult, while I will often talk to a dog I see when out and about, (oftentimes to get a feel for the owner, since I have run into several folks who take their dogs out to public places and DON'T want interaction ) I always ask the owner if I may pet the dog before I do so, and I let the dog approach me. It's a life lesson that isn't just applicable to kids.

live2ski wrote:

carey24 wrote:


That's Balto- pit/boxer/lab mix. Notice I am no further than a foot away from them.

EVERY dog owner needs to be responsible. Especially where children are concerned. NO dog should ever be left unattended with ANY young children. Period. Parents also need to take responsibility.

Case in point....I had Balto at the park. Van pulls up. Two kids, about 6 and 9 get out and run over to him, arms waving. They want to hug him. Strange dog, never seen him before. I told them to stop. Parent, still getting out of the car, does nothing to stop the children. I tell them to stop again, while trying to calm an excited Balto, since there are kids running, screaming at him. They proceeded to hug him, try and jump on him. I kept backing up with him. I informed the father (when he finally got to where his kids were) that they ARE going to get bit. Thank God, Balto has been around children and didn't hurt them. But had he accidentally scratched them, I would have been sued and he would have probably put down. It's just wrong. So wrong.

I will say that pits can be more stubborn and take a determined, stable person to train them and handle them properly.

I like that pic carey!!!

So do I. But do you think you could lean over a little more next time.

Lock a Toy Poodle in a closet and beat it and the dog is called "nippy".
Lock a Doberman in a closet and beat it and the dog is called a killer.

People also need to remember that a dog is a dog and should be treated so.
When Delaney was an infant she was on the bed with me and so was our 4 year old Dobeman. The Doberman started to growl at her and I took him off the bed and put him in his crate. I called the breeder and told her what happend. What I did wrong was let the dog on the bed. Dogs don't belong on the bed, people do. I needed to take the dog out of a bad situation, my fault.
When Delaney has friends over he stays in the crate because he doesn't like all the noise and the little ones running around the house, and he's happy when I put him away, he gives me the "thanks" look.
My point is 90% of the horrible stories you hear about are not the dogs fault but the persons fault and the dog takes the blame. Owners of big aggressive dogs need to take the time to find out how to properly live with them.
Side note: We have never had another issue with our two "kids" since. They are the best of friends now that he knows she's a person and he's a dog. Someday them might take over the world together. Think Pinky and The Brain.

land_shark3 wrote:

Quiet and Shy wrote:Perhaps the starting point is to have extremely tight regulations created and enforced re. the lineage and breeding of pit bulls...

Brilliant idea. In fact, I know some parents who have raised disobedient, destructive little kids. I say we put them down and keep their parents from breeding as well.

But seriously, we are talking about a species that humans have forced to become domesticated. The same goes for cats. I've been scratched and bitten by cats more than any dog. Think we should police cats and require they all be de-clawed?

I think you've taken what I tossed out as a potential option to an extreme....

No doubt the "people" side of this issue is a huge factor...but that is also much more complex to try and solve. So, I'm just looking for where something might realistically be done to reduce the potential for problems without expecting an outright ban (which would be nearly impossible, and may not be necessary...it's hard to tell how much "cleaning up the bloodlines" might help the breed).

comemonday wrote:

irishcajunphan wrote:....I've been bitten by poodles, chihuahuas, dachsunds, and cockers. I've had my shoulder separated by labs and bulldogs. I've been pinned in a field by a rottie and run over by a few labs and boxers who used me as a fun thing to knock down in a field....

Do you work with animals, or are you just that unlucky??

Licensed Veterinary Technician. . .animal nurse.

My opinion is that any animal that is unfriendly to humans/other animals should not be in public and definitely not loose. They need to be securely penned and accompanied at all times.

I'm not talking just dogs or any particular breed. I was chased by a loose McCaw at a resort once and while it sounds like a funny story, I was terrified and those things can break bones when they bite.

Moog Rasspy and Tink were in their own yard when that vicious animal attacked them. I used to walk my cat on a leash. Now I am afraid to.

I see some people walking their dogs in our city with a muzzle on. That gives a person a pretty good indication that they don't want to approach that dog. Children need to know from a very early age that they should never approach dogs they don't know.

All that said, I don't think I could ever be comfortable keeping an animal that I thought might intentionaly hurt someone...