"Struggle for Civilization" - is he serious?

[Quiet and Shy]

This line of thinking is why the majority of the world dislike Americans.

Yet millions of foreigners risk their lives to get into this country and millions more wish they could live here. My opinion stated it the same opinion implied by the rest of the world, Starvation in Africa - better there than here. I don't see much of the world helping with that. Opression in North Korea - better there than here. The world ignores 1/4 million political prisoners and the rest of the country being starved to death. Suppression of the free press and human rights in China - better there than here. Who has spoken out about the recent arrests in China? Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia was only stopped because there was the threat that the violence could have spread and effected more of europe. The rest of the world is more selfish and self centered than the US will ever be.

Almost all this debate is about what the US wants and what is right for the US...I beg to differ, but the US is an incredibly selfish and self-centered nation. That tends to come with the territory for those with power (especially a geographically isolated nation whose language is primary for business and science around the world), but the key is whether that power is used responsibly.

Yes, there are many problems in the world. But why is it the US' role to interfere with these wrongs? We can't take out all these soverign governments, can we? Our recent bullying has cost the US a lot of money, lives, and respect and has fueled an even greater fire for terrorists. Yes, I believe we're in a "struggle for humanity" but some very powerful people seem ignorant to the mess they've helped make...which does not bode well for the days and years ahead.

On another point, one can use (misuse) the Koran just as many do the Bible to justify and/or condone almost any behavior towards others....

[jonesbeach10]

This line of thinking is why the majority of the world dislike Americans.

Yet millions of foreigners risk their lives to get into this country and millions more wish they could live here. My opinion stated it the same opinion implied by the rest of the world, Starvation in Africa - better there than here. I don't see much of the world helping with that. Opression in North Korea - better there than here. The world ignores 1/4 million political prisoners and the rest of the country being starved to death. Suppression of the free press and human rights in China - better there than here. Who has spoken out about the recent arrests in China? Ethnic cleansing in Bosnia was only stopped because there was the threat that the violence could have spread and effected more of europe. The rest of the world is more selfish and self centered than the US will ever be.

Almost all this debate is about what the US wants and what is right for the US...I beg to differ, but the US is an incredibly selfish and self-centered nation. That tends to come with the territory for those with power (especially a geographically isolated nation whose language is primary for business and science around the world), but the key is whether that power is used responsibly.

Yes, there are many problems in the world. But why is it the US' role to interfere with these wrongs? We can't take out all these soverign governments, can we? Our recent bullying has cost the US a lot of money, lives, and respect and has fueled an even greater fire for terrorists. Yes, I believe we're in a "struggle for humanity" but some very powerful people seem ignorant to the mess they've helped make...which does not bode well for the days and years ahead.

On another point, one can use (misuse) the Koran just as many do the Bible to justify and/or condone almost any behavior towards others....

Amen.

And to think that foreigners hate Americans because we believe in the "Better over there than here," ask them the same question.

I'm sure a Frenchman would rather have the fighting "over there" than in France.
I'm sure the same is true for Britons, Germans, Australians, Japanese, etc.

It's called national self-interest. All countries are selfish. They are going to act in the best interests of their country.

[flyboy55]

That is slightly flawed logic.

Other than the Oklahoma bombing and Pearl Harbor, how many "successful terrorist attacks" do you think there have been? Also, are you counting domestic groups or just foreign groups?

Since there have only been a couple "successful" attacks, that leaves a lot of Presidents that have shown great leadership by your standards.

Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Unibomber, Those two idiots that were sniping along I-95 in MD and VA., The anthrax attack was after 9/11, the first WTC bomb in the basement. Some of these are domestic, some foreign, a couple were our own govenment out of control.

Interesting comments. You apparently classify Waco and Ruby Ridge as "successful terrorist attacks" carried out by "our own government out of control" (your words taken entirely IN context).

That scumbag Timothy McVeigh felt exactly the same as you with respect to the Federal government's actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge. He decided to make the Feds pay for Waco and Ruby Ridge by blowing up that Federal office building in Oklahoma City. Aside from the innocent men and women he murdered that day, he also incinerated a daycare full of children in the process.

Just curious, but do you consider him a hero for taking on the terrorists (in this case the Federal government)?

Lethal injection was far too "warm and fuzzy" a way for that militia scumbag Timothy McVeigh to leave this world. I don't consider this conclusion to be open to debate.

[Skibo]

Just curious, but do you consider him a hero for taking on the terrorists (in this case the Federal government)?

Sorry for not mentioning OK City attack as terrorist, it was. I will agree with you that he got off a lot easier than he should have. I threw ruby and waco in as cheap shots on the dems, kinda like you attack the reps for a cloudy day.

[Wino you know]

Disclaimer: I didn't see W's speech, I went down to Ground Zero when I left my office Monday night and didn't get home until about 10:00.

Just curious - does everyone disagree with the president's message that we're in a struggle for civilization or just the forum in which he chose to deliver the message? We're dealing with islamic fundamentalists who have absolutely no problem murdering innocent civilians, kidnapping people, usually civilians, and cutting their heads off while videotaping the beheading so it can be shown to the world, blowing up trains and buses, flying planes into buildings. They specifically target innocent civilians. They would be perfectly at home living back in the 7th century. They believe it's their duty to kill the infidels, I think that means all of us. The president of the islamic republic of Iran thinks Israel should be wiped off the map. And this is not something that began after the war Iraq, it's been going on much longer than that. If we're not in a struggle for civilization, just what would you call it?

Larry-
THANK YOU for saying what a great deal of Americans are TOO G.D. STUPID to realize!
I'm for KILLING THE BASTARDS on THEIR turf!
Maybe these Bush-bashers would like to put on their pink panties, make some tea & crumpets and invite Sahib & Co. over for a f'ing LOVE FEST. They're sure to stop killing us then.

JEEZ, F'ING LOUISE! And my wife wonders why I can't quit drinking!!!

[Crazy Navy Flyer]

Thank you wino for another voice of reason.

Yes, flyboy, he is serious. It is a struggle for civilization. Deal with it.

[Paradise]

Wow, this place is really political this week. So here's my 2 cents worth. I just got back from a week long class at the Department of Homeland Security in Alabama (you know that place where all of the incompetant, idiots hang out <sarcastic>) Let me assure you that it was probably one of the best, most organized, well taught classes that I have ever been to. Every one of the staff was an EXPERT in their field. I learned a lot of information that we just don't hear from ABC, NBC, MSN (insert any initials you like). For instance- Did you know that there are 13 provinces in Iraq and we are having trouble in only 4 of them. The struggle for power between Sunni/Shiite has been going on for many years and that is what we are seeing in Iraq now. The main reason that we have all of these terror groups coming together, organizing and acting more boldly has nothing to do with GW really. First of all global communications and technology are huge contributers to the terrorist movement. Second- remember the USS Cole? What did we do about it? Nothing! How about the bombing of our barraks in Lebanon by the Hezbollah? Nothing. Somalia- We ran. WTC (the first time)- Nothing. Are you seeing a pattern here. Anyone who studies human (or animal, for that matter) behavior knows that this is how behavior problems sart. They start small- hmm, got away with that- then bigger, got away with that one too- get what I'm saying? So really I think that there are many presidents that can share in the blame if blame is to be made for where we are today!!

[RinglingRingling]

Wow, this place is really political this week. So here's my 2 cents worth. I just got back from a week long class at the Department of Homeland Security in Alabama (you know that place where all of the incompetant, idiots hang out <sarcastic>) Let me assure you that it was probably one of the best, most organized, well taught classes that I have ever been to. Every one of the staff was an EXPERT in their field. I learned a lot of information that we just don't hear from ABC, NBC, MSN (insert any initials you like). For instance- Did you know that there are 13 provinces in Iraq and we are having trouble in only 4 of them. The struggle for power between Sunni/Shiite has been going on for many years and that is what we are seeing in Iraq now. The main reason that we have all of these terror groups coming together, organizing and acting more boldly has nothing to do with GW really. First of all global communications and technology are huge contributers to the terrorist movement. Second- remember the USS Cole? What did we do about it? Nothing! How about the bombing of our barraks in Lebanon by the Hezbollah? Nothing. Somalia- We ran. WTC (the first time)- Nothing. Are you seeing a pattern here. Anyone who studies human (or animal, for that matter) behavior knows that this is how behavior problems sart. They start small- hmm, got away with that- then bigger, got away with that one too- get what I'm saying? So really I think that there are many presidents that can share in the blame if blame is to be made for where we are today!!

really? who'da thought...

[Paradise]

Wow, this place is really political this week. So here's my 2 cents worth. I just got back from a week long class at the Department of Homeland Security in Alabama (you know that place where all of the incompetant, idiots hang out <sarcastic>) Let me assure you that it was probably one of the best, most organized, well taught classes that I have ever been to. Every one of the staff was an EXPERT in their field. I learned a lot of information that we just don't hear from ABC, NBC, MSN (insert any initials you like). For instance- Did you know that there are 13 provinces in Iraq and we are having trouble in only 4 of them. The struggle for power between Sunni/Shiite has been going on for many years and that is what we are seeing in Iraq now. The main reason that we have all of these terror groups coming together, organizing and acting more boldly has nothing to do with GW really. First of all global communications and technology are huge contributers to the terrorist movement. Second- remember the USS Cole? What did we do about it? Nothing! How about the bombing of our barraks in Lebanon by the Hezbollah? Nothing. Somalia- We ran. WTC (the first time)- Nothing. Are you seeing a pattern here. Anyone who studies human (or animal, for that matter) behavior knows that this is how behavior problems sart. They start small- hmm, got away with that- then bigger, got away with that one too- get what I'm saying? So really I think that there are many presidents that can share in the blame if blame is to be made for where we are today!!

really? who'da thought...

My point being that this part of the struggle in Iraq is not about terrorism. It is an internal/civil struggle. We are successfully training the Iraqis to handle these problems on their own but such things take time.

[Quiet and Shy]

I'm not hung up on the "what" (going after the terrorists), but the "how" has been a mess. We can re-hash history and who's at fault for what forever, but that's about the past.

I'm worried about now and the future. In 5 years we (the US) have gone from being respected victims to being a nation hated by much of the world...because we've unilaterally decided almost any means is just. (E.g. the rules only apply to "everyone else".)

And where has this gotten us? Unfortunately, there are probably a lot more terrorists out there today than there were on 9/11...the "how" has fueled the fires and played right into the hands of the terrorist leaders creating a horrible quagmire. This path is not a good one....

[RinglingRingling]

I'm not hung up on the "what" (going after the terrorists), but the "how" has been a mess. We can re-hash history and who's at fault for what forever, but that's about the past.

I'm worried about now and the future. In 5 years we (the US) have gone from being respected victims to being a nation hated by much of the world...because we've unilaterally decided almost any means is just. (E.g. the rules only apply to "everyone else".)

And where has this gotten us? Unfortunately, there are probably a lot more terrorists out there today than there were on 9/11...the "how" has fueled the fires and played right into the hands of the terrorist leaders creating a horrible quagmire. This path is not a good one....

how can you say that? the one guy claimed all those terrorists were pre-existing, no new ones are being minted, and we are better off using this to find them...

[Quiet and Shy]

I'm not hung up on the "what" (going after the terrorists), but the "how" has been a mess. We can re-hash history and who's at fault for what forever, but that's about the past.

I'm worried about now and the future. In 5 years we (the US) have gone from being respected victims to being a nation hated by much of the world...because we've unilaterally decided almost any means is just. (E.g. the rules only apply to "everyone else".)

And where has this gotten us? Unfortunately, there are probably a lot more terrorists out there today than there were on 9/11...the "how" has fueled the fires and played right into the hands of the terrorist leaders creating a horrible quagmire. This path is not a good one....

how can you say that? the one guy claimed all those terrorists were pre-existing, no new ones are being minted, and we are better off using this to find them...

The recently-thrwarted airline plot from Britain involved ethnic muslims (British citizens) angered and fueled by actions in the Middle East....

[RinglingRingling]

I'm not hung up on the "what" (going after the terrorists), but the "how" has been a mess. We can re-hash history and who's at fault for what forever, but that's about the past.

I'm worried about now and the future. In 5 years we (the US) have gone from being respected victims to being a nation hated by much of the world...because we've unilaterally decided almost any means is just. (E.g. the rules only apply to "everyone else".)

And where has this gotten us? Unfortunately, there are probably a lot more terrorists out there today than there were on 9/11...the "how" has fueled the fires and played right into the hands of the terrorist leaders creating a horrible quagmire. This path is not a good one....

how can you say that? the one guy claimed all those terrorists were pre-existing, no new ones are being minted, and we are better off using this to find them...

The recently-thrwarted airline plot from Britain involved ethnic muslims (British citizens) angered and fueled by actions in the Middle East....

I know. His claim that the events there were not fodder for recruiting more fodder, that it was only existing terrorists that were involved seemed more than a little ludicrous.

[Indiana Jolly Mon]

Yes the rest of the world may hate us, but the rest of the world loves Michael Jackson and soccer, so should their opinions really matter?

[Wino you know]

Yes the rest of the world may hate us, but the rest of the world loves Michael Jackson and soccer, so should their opinions really matter?

AND THE INDIANA MAN HITS A TOWERING HOME RUN.

[Quiet and Shy]

Yes the rest of the world may hate us, but the rest of the world loves Michael Jackson and soccer, so should their opinions really matter?

AND THE INDIANA MAN HITS A TOWERING HOME RUN.

Funny on the MJ and soccer bit, but bigger picture, that kind of arrogance and ignorance may well get many more of us killed. We're geographically isolated and have the world's biggest economy, but this attitude is what makes it hard to reign in not just the terrorists, but the Iranians, North Koreans, etc. If nothing else, 9/11 proved the world's a much smaller place.... We need to learn how to get along with and not just bully others.

Towering home runs are only worthwhile if the game you're playing is baseball....

[RinglingRingling]

Yes the rest of the world may hate us, but the rest of the world loves Michael Jackson and soccer, so should their opinions really matter?

AND THE INDIANA MAN HITS A TOWERING HOME RUN.

Funny on the MJ and soccer bit, but bigger picture, that kind of arrogance and ignorance may well get many more of us killed. We're geographically isolated and have the world's biggest economy, but this attitude is what makes it hard to reign in not just the terrorists, but the Iranians, North Koreans, etc. If nothing else, 9/11 proved the world's a much smaller place.... We need to learn how to get along with and not just bully others.

Towering home runs are only worthwhile if the game you're playing is baseball....

and with the rest of the world playing soccer, it might behoove us to be able to get beyond the first round of the World Cup. Our ability to play baseball (and I believe we didn't do all that well at that this last summer in world competition) could rank right up there with the Afghani supremacy in goat polo.

[Skibo]

that kind of arrogance and ignorance may well get many more of us killed.

This is my all time favorite canned response.

[RinglingRingling]

that kind of arrogance and ignorance may well get many more of us killed.

This is my all time favorite canned response.

like the canned dismissal?

[Indiana Jolly Mon]

Hey Quiet and Shy, go down to the store and buy yourself a sense of humor. By the way, if terrorists are only hitting us because of what Bush is doing, why are the also targeting all the other countries that "hate" us too?? Why did they attack us during Clinton being in office??
The bottom line is yes we are the big dog, and the world without a big dog is a world in chaos. Do you really think the North Korea's head whackjob is the way is is because of the USA? No. Yes some countries may disagree with us, but when push comes to shove, we are the ones they are looking to for help.
The UN can put anyone on double secret probation, but they have no teeth.
And as to arrogant and ignorant? If you would like to compare education or experience feel free to contact me to show how incorrect you are.
And WINO, thank you very much