Baseball Hall of Fame

[CaptainP]

Dale Murphy
Andre Dawson

Same as with Mattingly, the question has to be, "Were they dominant for a long enough time?"

Dawson, I think so. He's on that edge, but his numbers are better than Rice's.

Murphy, I think he falls just short. His numbers are closer to Mattingly's than to Rice. .265 average might be the thing that kills him. It's about the same as McGwire's, but he's about 200 HRs short of McGwire.

[CaptainP]

Just to open up more debate....(This is one of my favorite subjects)


ACTIVE PLAYERS WHO I BELIEVE HAVE EARNED THE HALL OF FAME:
(I will base this ONLY on stats...not on somebody's alleged steroid use, or if they are a jackass or not)

HITTERS:
Bonds
ARod
Griffey
Piazza
IRod
Jeter
Sosa (he might come back this season, so I list him as active)
Frank Thomas (I think last season put him over the top finally)
Guerrero
Pujols (he hasn't played the requisite 10 years, but he's just that damn good)
Ichiro (again, less than 10 years, but include his time in Japan)
Manny

BORDERLINE HITTERS/not there yet:
Helton
Bagwell
Biggio
Sheffield
Thome
Kent
Delgado


PITCHERS:
Clemens
Johnson
Maddux
Martinez
Rivera
Glavine
Schilling (if his overall numbers don't quite get him there, his post-season exploits do)


BORDERLINE PITCHERS:
Hoffman
Smoltz
Mussina
Pettitte
John Franco (yes, I said it, over a decade as a top closer)



Let the fight begin!

[job41475]

Just to open up more debate....(This is one of my favorite subjects)


ACTIVE PLAYERS WHO I BELIEVE HAVE EARNED THE HALL OF FAME:
(I will base this ONLY on stats...not on somebody's alleged steroid use, or if they are a jackass or not)

HITTERS:
Bonds
ARod
Griffey
Piazza
IRod
Jeter
Sosa (he might come back this season, so I list him as active)
Frank Thomas (I think last season put him over the top finally)
Guerrero
Pujols (he hasn't played the requisite 10 years, but he's just that damn good)
Ichiro (again, less than 10 years, but include his time in Japan)
Manny

BORDERLINE HITTERS/not there yet:
Helton
Bagwell
Biggio
Sheffield
Thome
Kent
Delgado


PITCHERS:
Clemens
Johnson
Maddux
Martinez
Rivera
Glavine
Schilling (if his overall numbers don't quite get him there, his post-season exploits do)


BORDERLINE PITCHERS:
Hoffman
Smoltz
Mussina
Pettitte
John Franco (yes, I said it, over a decade as a top closer)



Let the fight begin!

My initial reaction is your lsit is pretty darn good although I'm not sure I wouldn't out Hoffman in already and take franco off the maybe list. He was very good but I don't think of him as HOF material. Let me digest it a little more but nice work teammate...

[Cubbie Bear]

If you have not done so, assign a value. 3 votes not counted

*****************Update page 1***************

[LIPH]

Just to open up more debate....(This is one of my favorite subjects)


BORDERLINE HITTERS/not there yet:
Helton
Bagwell
Biggio
Sheffield
Thome
Kent
Delgado


BORDERLINE PITCHERS:
Hoffman
Smoltz
Mussina
Pettitte
John Franco (yes, I said it, over a decade as a top closer)



Let the fight begin!

Biggio should make it to 3,000 hits this year, he has almost 1800 runs scored, close to 300 HRs and over 1000 RBIs, he'll get in. Plus, he's from Long Island. The best move the Astros ever made for him was taking him out from behind the plate. If he was a catcher his whole career, he's just another player. And he would have been retired a few years ago.

I think Kent has the most HRs of any second baseman, or close to it, plus 8 years of 100+ RBIs. He's a lock in my mind.

Have to disagree with John Franco. After watching him for 15 years with the Mets there's no way I'd vote for him. There were more than a few years that I cringed when I saw him coming out of the bullpen in a close game. He was a numbers compiler but that just shows what a bogus stat the save can be.

[job41475]

Just to open up more debate....(This is one of my favorite subjects)


BORDERLINE HITTERS/not there yet:
Helton
Bagwell
Biggio
Sheffield
Thome
Kent
Delgado


BORDERLINE PITCHERS:
Hoffman
Smoltz
Mussina
Pettitte
John Franco (yes, I said it, over a decade as a top closer)



Let the fight begin!

Biggio should make it to 3,000 hits this year, he has almost 1800 runs scored, close to 300 HRs and over 1000 RBIs, he'll get in. Plus, he's from Long Island. The best move the Astros ever made for him was taking him out from behind the plate. If he was a catcher his whole career, he's just another player. And he would have been retired a few years ago.

I think Kent has the most HRs of any second baseman, or close to it, plus 8 years of 100+ RBIs. He's a lock in my mind.

Have to disagree with John Franco. After watching him for 15 years with the Mets there's no way I'd vote for him. There were more than a few years that I cringed when I saw him coming out of the bullpen in a close game. He was a numbers compiler but that just shows what a bogus stat the save can be.

It's not often when i comes to abseball I agree with Larry but here I do. Living in NY I always heard the tales of Franco's woes and I agree with Biggio. He also went to Seton hall ( my lil bro is there now) so he's got to be good....

[BottleofRum]

Just to open up more debate....(This is one of my favorite subjects)


ACTIVE PLAYERS WHO I BELIEVE HAVE EARNED THE HALL OF FAME:
(I will base this ONLY on stats...not on somebody's alleged steroid use, or if they are a jackass or not)

HITTERS:
Bonds
ARod
Griffey
Piazza
IRod
Jeter
Sosa (he might come back this season, so I list him as active)
Frank Thomas (I think last season put him over the top finally)
Guerrero
Pujols (he hasn't played the requisite 10 years, but he's just that damn good)
Ichiro (again, less than 10 years, but include his time in Japan)
Manny

BORDERLINE HITTERS/not there yet:
Helton
Bagwell
Biggio
Sheffield
Thome
Kent
Delgado


PITCHERS:
Clemens
Johnson
Maddux
Martinez
Rivera
Glavine
Schilling (if his overall numbers don't quite get him there, his post-season exploits do)


BORDERLINE PITCHERS:
Hoffman
Smoltz
Mussina
Pettitte
John Franco (yes, I said it, over a decade as a top closer)



Let the fight begin!

Wait until Glenn sees Hoffman on your boarderline list

[Cubbie Bear]

Just to open up more debate....(This is one of my favorite subjects)


ACTIVE PLAYERS WHO I BELIEVE HAVE EARNED THE HALL OF FAME:
(I will base this ONLY on stats...not on somebody's alleged steroid use, or if they are a jackass or not)

HITTERS:
Bonds
ARod
Griffey
Piazza
IRod
Jeter
Sosa (he might come back this season, so I list him as active)
Frank Thomas (I think last season put him over the top finally)
Guerrero
Pujols (he hasn't played the requisite 10 years, but he's just that damn good)
Ichiro (again, less than 10 years, but include his time in Japan)
Manny

BORDERLINE HITTERS/not there yet:
Helton
Bagwell
Biggio
Sheffield
Thome
Kent
Delgado


PITCHERS:
Clemens
Johnson
Maddux
Martinez
Rivera
Glavine
Schilling (if his overall numbers don't quite get him there, his post-season exploits do)


BORDERLINE PITCHERS:
Hoffman
Smoltz
Mussina
Pettitte
John Franco (yes, I said it, over a decade as a top closer)



Let the fight begin!

Wait until Glenn sees Hoffman on your boarderline list

I was just thinking that

[Tequila Revenge]

Can not offer a vote for Big Mac. How can you kiss the cheek of Mrs. Maris and tell her and her kids, what an honor it is to be associated with the great Roger Maris’s accomplishments especially KNOWING you cheated and were juiced to no end.

There's the sticking point, isn't it. McGwire was never proven to have taken anything ILLEGAL. Most of these guys haven't been. You can't put someone in jail without proof. "I think that guy did it. Lock him up." The fact is, the only substances he ever was proven to have taken were legal in baseball at the time. He stopped taking Andro after it was banned. Otherwise, you only have the accusation of Jose Canseco, and his weird St. Pats day testimony to go on. But remember how many HRs he hit when he was a skinny little rookie.

Right. His testimony before Congress was so compelling Check out Andro on Google. It was developed by the East Germans to hide other steroids.

BTW, I was one of Big Mac's biggest fans.

[live2ski]

Cal Ripken Jr. 5
Tony Gwynn 4
Rich Gossage 3
Alan Trammell 2
Jim Rice 1

Sorry Cubbie

[Wino you know]

HECTOR VILLENUEVA!!!

[CaptainP]

I tend to be more lenient when it comes to relief pitchers, this is true. I also think Lee Smith and Goose Gossage should be in.

Upon further analysis, you are right, Biggio should be in.

Keep in mind with McGwire....I put him on the list. Read my disclaimer. I'm basing my votes ONLY on what they did on the field. Otherwise Sosa and Bonds would be off my list, too.

[Tequila Revenge]

I tend to be more lenient when it comes to relief pitchers, this is true. I also think Lee Smith and Goose Gossage should be in.

Upon further analysis, you are right, Biggio should be in.

Keep in mind with McGwire....I put him on the list. Read my disclaimer. I'm basing my votes ONLY on what they did on the field. Otherwise Sosa and Bonds would be off my list, too.

My favorite argument for Baseball's Steroid Era and HOF voting came from KNBR's , (San Francisco) afternoon drive time radio show. Baseball DESERVES this mess because the chose to ignore it fo so long.

[jonesbeach10]

Can not offer a vote for Big Mac. How can you kiss the cheek of Mrs. Maris and tell her and her kids, what an honor it is to be associated with the great Roger Maris’s accomplishments especially KNOWING you cheated and were juiced to no end.

It’s a year too late, but I hope Buck O’Neil gets in.

Here's the counterpoint:

According to Jose Canseco's accounts of the Bash Bros. steriod use, they were taking the roids in the late 80s early 90s, and steroids in sports go back much farther than that. It's a lot of speculaiton, but my guess is that they weren't the only two in baseball roiding up. You could make the argument that there are probably players who used steroids and got into the hall of fame.


I'm not condoning McGuire and would not vote him in this year. Just playing devil's advocate

[Tequila Revenge]

Can not offer a vote for Big Mac. How can you kiss the cheek of Mrs. Maris and tell her and her kids, what an honor it is to be associated with the great Roger Maris’s accomplishments especially KNOWING you cheated and were juiced to no end.

It’s a year too late, but I hope Buck O’Neil gets in.

Here's the counterpoint:

According to Jose Canseco's accounts of the Bash Bros. steriod use, they were taking the roids in the late 80s early 90s, and steroids in sports go back much farther than that. It's a lot of speculaiton, but my guess is that they weren't the only two in baseball roiding up. You could make the argument that there are probably players who used steroids and got into the hall of fame.


I'm not condoning McGuire and would not vote him in this year. Just playing devil's advocate

Agree with you. My point is Big Mac's deception and his very public comments to the Maris family is pretty much , dare I use the word.. morally reprehensible. There's proabbaly pitchers in the hall or on thier way in that survived on roids.

[CaptainP]

Can not offer a vote for Big Mac. How can you kiss the cheek of Mrs. Maris and tell her and her kids, what an honor it is to be associated with the great Roger Maris’s accomplishments especially KNOWING you cheated and were juiced to no end.

It’s a year too late, but I hope Buck O’Neil gets in.

Here's the counterpoint:

According to Jose Canseco's accounts of the Bash Bros. steriod use, they were taking the roids in the late 80s early 90s, and steroids in sports go back much farther than that. It's a lot of speculaiton, but my guess is that they weren't the only two in baseball roiding up. You could make the argument that there are probably players who used steroids and got into the hall of fame.


I'm not condoning McGuire and would not vote him in this year. Just playing devil's advocate

Agree with you. My point is Big Mac's deception and his very public comments to the Maris family is pretty much , dare I use the word.. morally reprehensible. There's proabbaly pitchers in the hall or on thier way in that survived on roids.

In other words, it was a level playing field. If everyone had the opportunity to cheat, then the best of that era rise to the top.

[jonesbeach10]

BTW, as if anyone needs any further proof that Bonds used steroids: he's running to the same guy that managed Roid Boys Canseco and McGuire in Oakland.

TR, I completely agree with you about the whole ordeal with the Maris Family. Personally, I believe if Maris' 61 had an asterisk next to it, then surely an asterist be put next to 66 and 70 and 73.

[Tequila Revenge]

Can not offer a vote for Big Mac. How can you kiss the cheek of Mrs. Maris and tell her and her kids, what an honor it is to be associated with the great Roger Maris’s accomplishments especially KNOWING you cheated and were juiced to no end.

It’s a year too late, but I hope Buck O’Neil gets in.

Here's the counterpoint:

According to Jose Canseco's accounts of the Bash Bros. steriod use, they were taking the roids in the late 80s early 90s, and steroids in sports go back much farther than that. It's a lot of speculaiton, but my guess is that they weren't the only two in baseball roiding up. You could make the argument that there are probably players who used steroids and got into the hall of fame.


I'm not condoning McGuire and would not vote him in this year. Just playing devil's advocate

Agree with you. My point is Big Mac's deception and his very public comments to the Maris family is pretty much , dare I use the word.. morally reprehensible. There's proabbaly pitchers in the hall or on thier way in that survived on roids.

In other words, it was a level playing field. If everyone had the opportunity to cheat, then the best of that era rise to the top.

Yep! Steroids, greenies, Andro, you name it. Remember, the only sin is not to win. Prety disgusting .

[jonesbeach10]

Just to open up more debate....(This is one of my favorite subjects)


ACTIVE PLAYERS WHO I BELIEVE HAVE EARNED THE HALL OF FAME:
(I will base this ONLY on stats...not on somebody's alleged steroid use, or if they are a jackass or not)

HITTERS:
Bonds
ARod
Griffey
Piazza
IRod
Jeter
Sosa (he might come back this season, so I list him as active)
Frank Thomas (I think last season put him over the top finally)
Guerrero
Pujols (he hasn't played the requisite 10 years, but he's just that damn good)
Ichiro (again, less than 10 years, but include his time in Japan)
Manny

BORDERLINE HITTERS/not there yet:
Helton
Bagwell
Biggio
Sheffield
Thome
Kent
Delgado


PITCHERS:
Clemens
Johnson
Maddux
Martinez
Rivera
Glavine
Schilling (if his overall numbers don't quite get him there, his post-season exploits do)


BORDERLINE PITCHERS:
Hoffman
Smoltz
Mussina
Pettitte
John Franco (yes, I said it, over a decade as a top closer)



Let the fight begin!

Didn't see this list before and its late, and I'm only going by what you have here, and I have to say, it's pretty good. I think it's too soon on Vlad Guerrero, and I think Biggio gets in. The only one I would add, and it would be in the same category as Pujols, is Soriano. He has adapted to numerous positions and has reached the 40-40 level. I think if he keeps up his numbers for the next few years, he definitely has a shot. (then again, he just signed with the Cubs, so we know that won't happen)

As for pitchers. Hoffman has to be in there, and maybe Smoltz too. If it wasn't for his elbow injuries a few years back before they made him a closer, he'd be a no-brainer. I say yes because he got the job done as both a starter and closer.

I don't think Pettitte is HOF material. He was really only a dominant pitcher a few years in NY and was really only the ace in 96 and 97. In 98 they had David Wells and 99-06 he had Clemens.

As for Mussina, the only thing that keeps me from seriously considering him is lack of WS ring and he never won 20 games. I think this years Game 2 of the ALDS against the Tigers proves my point. In the game, he pitched very well and put his team in a position to win, but didn't give them the lockdown performance that the greats do. I don't think the greats give the Tigers a sniff at the series.

[drmutt]

Pretty good list. Jeter's definitely there , but if his career ended tomorrow due to a catastophic injury, he might be stuck like Mattingly. I think Delgado's there. Let Rose in, and Shoeless Joe too.