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Doug Harvey should be in.

drunkpirate66 wrote:reading up on soon to be rookie phenom Jay Bruce of the Reds . . . I might have to see a game out there when I come out to see Jimmy if the Reds are home . . . this kid looks like the next Braun or Mauer . . . with better defense . . .

with Cordero in the pen . . . Homer Bailey in a decent rotation . . . the Reds could finally put something interesting together.

Until you look in the dugout in May or June and see Cordero and Aaron Harang icing their elbows while sitting next to the great Dusty Baker.

jonesbeach10 wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:reading up on soon to be rookie phenom Jay Bruce of the Reds . . . I might have to see a game out there when I come out to see Jimmy if the Reds are home . . . this kid looks like the next Braun or Mauer . . . with better defense . . .

with Cordero in the pen . . . Homer Bailey in a decent rotation . . . the Reds could finally put something interesting together.

Until you look in the dugout in May or June and see Cordero and Aaron Harang icing their elbows while sitting next to the great Dusty Baker.

Kuhn, 4 others elected to baseball hall
Former commissioner Bowie Kuhn was elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame by the revamped Veterans Committee on Monday while his longtime adversary, players' union boss Marvin Miller, was left out for the second time this year.

Former Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley, managers Dick Williams and Billy Southworth and ex-Pirates owner Barney Dreyfuss also were elected.

Manager Whitey Herzog and umpire Doug Harvey each missed induction by a single vote. Miller did not come close.

full article here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_ ... Y2kxWi24cA

I don't understand how or why they're keeping Marvin Miller out of the Hall. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, I don't think anybody influenced baseball more than he did during his time with the players' union.

Andy Pettitte returning to the Yankees

Yankees have said they will not get in a bidding war with the Red Sox for Santana. The Twins have until Monday to say yes or no to the package of Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and a mid-level prospect.

LIPH wrote:I don't understand how or why they're keeping Marvin Miller out of the Hall. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, I don't think anybody influenced baseball more than he did during his time with the players' union.

Would you use the same arguement and include Jose Canseco in the HOF?

Good or bad, he is the guy who started the whole steroid controversy rolling with his book.

jonesbeach10 wrote:Andy Pettitte returning to the Yankees

Yankees have said they will not get in a bidding war with the Red Sox for Santana. The Twins have until Monday to say yes or no to the package of Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and a mid-level prospect.

The Yankees are in no position to make an ultimatum to the Twins.

They made an ultimatum to ARod, then went back on their word and re-signed him. If they do the same here, they lose all credibility.
If they are serious, then they just gave the Red Sox all the bargining power they need to acquire Santana.

Foolish move.

CaptainP wrote:

LIPH wrote:I don't understand how or why they're keeping Marvin Miller out of the Hall. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, I don't think anybody influenced baseball more than he did during his time with the players' union.

Would you use the same arguement and include Jose Canseco in the HOF?

Good or bad, he is the guy who started the whole steroid controversy rolling with his book.

No, because Canseco was a player and should be judged by what he did on the field. Miller's in the executive/pioneer category. If you don't take his influence on baseball into consideration, why is he even on the ballot?

LIPH wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

LIPH wrote:I don't understand how or why they're keeping Marvin Miller out of the Hall. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, I don't think anybody influenced baseball more than he did during his time with the players' union.

Would you use the same arguement and include Jose Canseco in the HOF?

Good or bad, he is the guy who started the whole steroid controversy rolling with his book.

No, because Canseco was a player and should be judged by what he did on the field. Miller's in the executive/pioneer category. If you don't take his influence on baseball into consideration, why is he even on the ballot?

Fair enough. Vote Canseco in under the "pioneer" category. He certainly helped revolutionize the game....TWICE!

First by helping introduce Steroids to the game, or at least helping to affect the amount of usage.
Second by ratting people out.

CaptainP wrote:

LIPH wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

LIPH wrote:I don't understand how or why they're keeping Marvin Miller out of the Hall. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, I don't think anybody influenced baseball more than he did during his time with the players' union.

Would you use the same arguement and include Jose Canseco in the HOF?

Good or bad, he is the guy who started the whole steroid controversy rolling with his book.

No, because Canseco was a player and should be judged by what he did on the field. Miller's in the executive/pioneer category. If you don't take his influence on baseball into consideration, why is he even on the ballot?

Fair enough. Vote Canseco in under the "pioneer" category. He certainly helped revolutionize the game....TWICE!

First by helping introduce Steroids to the game, or at least helping to affect the amount of usage.
Second by ratting people out.

steroids in baseball existed atleast as far back as the 1970's . . . and other players brought this forward earlier than Canseco . . . Eddie Murray to name one. Canseco had little to do with pioneering either.

drunkpirate66 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

LIPH wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

LIPH wrote:I don't understand how or why they're keeping Marvin Miller out of the Hall. Good or bad, depending on your point of view, I don't think anybody influenced baseball more than he did during his time with the players' union.

Would you use the same arguement and include Jose Canseco in the HOF?

Good or bad, he is the guy who started the whole steroid controversy rolling with his book.

No, because Canseco was a player and should be judged by what he did on the field. Miller's in the executive/pioneer category. If you don't take his influence on baseball into consideration, why is he even on the ballot?

Fair enough. Vote Canseco in under the "pioneer" category. He certainly helped revolutionize the game....TWICE!

First by helping introduce Steroids to the game, or at least helping to affect the amount of usage.
Second by ratting people out.

steroids in baseball existed atleast as far back as the 1970's . . . and other players brought this forward earlier than Canseco . . . Eddie Murray to name one. Canseco had little to do with pioneering either.

But he is one of the names most associated with it.



(For the record, I'm just doing a devil's advocate argument here...I don't actually believe in what I'm typing!)

CaptainP wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:Andy Pettitte returning to the Yankees

Yankees have said they will not get in a bidding war with the Red Sox for Santana. The Twins have until Monday to say yes or no to the package of Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and a mid-level prospect.

The Yankees are in no position to make an ultimatum to the Twins.

They made an ultimatum to ARod, then went back on their word and re-signed him. If they do the same here, they lose all credibility.
If they are serious, then they just gave the Red Sox all the bargining power they need to acquire Santana.

Foolish move.

I agree, but at the same time, I don't want them throwing in Cano or packaging both Hughes and Kennedy because the Red Sox are offering Ellsbury and Lester.

jonesbeach10 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:Andy Pettitte returning to the Yankees

Yankees have said they will not get in a bidding war with the Red Sox for Santana. The Twins have until Monday to say yes or no to the package of Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and a mid-level prospect.

The Yankees are in no position to make an ultimatum to the Twins.

They made an ultimatum to ARod, then went back on their word and re-signed him. If they do the same here, they lose all credibility.
If they are serious, then they just gave the Red Sox all the bargining power they need to acquire Santana.

Foolish move.

I agree, but at the same time, I don't want them throwing in Cano or packaging both Hughes and Kennedy because the Red Sox are offering Ellsbury and Lester.

The Red Sox seem to have an advantage because they have the better team.

The Sox can offer Lester and Elisbury and get away with it . . . the Yankees can't really give up a Cano . . . or a Hughes. What would be the point . . .?

Sox give up Elisbury and they have a young gold glove type centerfielder signed for only 5 million a year . . .

Sox give up Lester and they have a rotation of:

Santana
Beckett
Schilling
Dice
Buccholtz
Wakefield . . .

so why wouldn't they?

The only reason . . . if Johan Santana gets his 20 + million a year then Josh Beckett would demand to have his contract adjusted . . . which would be his right.

oh . . . and just let me add . . .

how could any team turn down an Elisbury/ Buccholtz or Lester deal?

I am a self admitted homer . . . but I can't imagine any team, who was probably not going to win anyways and who was going to lose their best pitcher in a year anyways turn that down.

No disrespect to Melky or Hughes . . . but I would take the Sox offer any day.

This won't win me a lot of friends with the Red Sox fans (now there's something to lose sleep over), but DAMMIT TO HELL, Bill Buckner belongs in the hall of fame too!

Wino you know wrote:This won't win me a lot of friends with the Red Sox fans (now there's something to lose sleep over), but DAMMIT TO HELL, Bill Buckner belongs in the hall of fame too!

There's some stat (CaptP?) that Buckner is the only person never to strike out three times in a game, and played in something like 22 seasons. (Feel free to correct me. This is hearsay from years ago.)

jonesbeach10 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:Andy Pettitte returning to the Yankees

Yankees have said they will not get in a bidding war with the Red Sox for Santana. The Twins have until Monday to say yes or no to the package of Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and a mid-level prospect.

The Yankees are in no position to make an ultimatum to the Twins.

They made an ultimatum to ARod, then went back on their word and re-signed him. If they do the same here, they lose all credibility.
If they are serious, then they just gave the Red Sox all the bargining power they need to acquire Santana.

Foolish move.

I agree, but at the same time, I don't want them throwing in Cano or packaging both Hughes and Kennedy because the Red Sox are offering Ellsbury OR Lester.

That's what I heard. It'll be one or the other, plus others obviously, but not both.

Latest rumor out of Tennessee on the Santana to Boston deal is that they are now offering Lester AND Crisp AND Ellsbury!!!!

Meaning they may have something in the works for Andruw Jones?

Don't know why the Twins would make THAT deal, though...they just picked up Delmon Young...do they really need 3 center fielders?

CaptainP wrote:Latest rumor out of Tennessee on the Santana to Boston deal is that they are now offering Lester AND Crisp AND Ellsbury!!!!

Meaning they may have something in the works for Andruw Jones?

Don't know why the Twins would make THAT deal, though...they just picked up Delmon Young...do they really need 3 center fielders?

Minneapolis is the home of the Triple-A farm team of the Red Sox.

(Remember some guy named David Oritz, or something like that? That's where he got HIS start).