Uh oh . . .

[Longboardn' ASEL&S]

The U.S. has done it (Iraq most recently and others too numerous to mention). The Israelis have done it (Lebanon). Now the Turks have seemingly joined the 'pre-emption' club.

Last time I checked Israel went into Lebanon after the kidnapped Israeli soldiers were showing no chance of being released.
"pre-emption"?
You have not failed to toe the conventional Liberal line in the 4 1/2 months that I have been a proud BNer.
Please show us every once in a while that you actually think for yourself, instead of merely repeating half truths from the leftist camp.
Israel greatly underestimated the enemy they were up against, and suffered a humiliating defeat.
They were, however, fully justified in their action against the terrorists being harbored in Lebanon.
Innocents were killed, but that's war.
The Lebanese should have realized that before granting shelter to the terrorist groups.
Do you have at least ONE centrist comment you can add to the pages of this group?

[Wino you know]

Nice blanket statement there seems like you just pre-judged all environmentalists. I find it hard to believe you've talked with them all & came to the same conclusion. Pre-judge; prejudiced; same thing...
oops, guess I just called you & your wanna-be SUV out
To clarify that I have an original SUV, an old Jeep
I know, I know.... that's kinda like being religious but not going to church-
but then again I'm an Atheist
Have a GREAT Day

Swear to God you're an atheist?

No, it's NOT a wanna-be S.U.V., it's an honest-to-God gas guzzling A-Rab's dream. (Made right here in the good ol' U.S.A., of course). We HAD an old Jeep, but some collector made us an offer we couldn't refuse, now there's a new one in the garage. (Jeep Grand Cherokee, V-8). I drive a Jeep Cherokee at work, but that I have no control over-otherwise it'd be a HUMMER H-1 with a gun turret on top.

And I ALWAYS have a great day, thank you.

[Wino you know]

Am I a nutcase?

Only if it's your birthday.

[Longboardn' ASEL&S]

I drive a Jeep Cherokee at work, but that I have no control over-otherwise it'd be a HUMMER H-1 with a gun turret on top.

Now that's the kind of free thinking credibility I'm refreshed to see!
A non-veal eating, anti horse shooting, turreted H-1 driving guy!
Seriously, at least YOU think for yourself, unlike those on the left OR right that are clones of their idols.

[Wino you know]

Seriously, at least YOU think for yourself,

I like to think so.

[RinglingRingling]

The U.S. has done it (Iraq most recently and others too numerous to mention). The Israelis have done it (Lebanon). Now the Turks have seemingly joined the 'pre-emption' club.

Last time I checked Israel went into Lebanon after the kidnapped Israeli soldiers were showing no chance of being released.
"pre-emption"?
You have not failed to toe the conventional Liberal line in the 4 1/2 months that I have been a proud BNer.
Please show us every once in a while that you actually think for yourself, instead of merely repeating half truths from the leftist camp.
Israel greatly underestimated the enemy they were up against, and suffered a humiliating defeat.
They were, however, fully justified in their action against the terrorists being harbored in Lebanon.
Innocents were killed, but that's war.
The Lebanese should have realized that before granting shelter to the terrorist groups.
Do you have at least ONE centrist comment you can add to the pages of this group?

you actually think that the Lebanese had/have a choice on this one? They are, and have always been the football between camps. Beirut became a trading hub because of this. On their best day, the Lebanese Army and its leadership would have lasted maybe 8 hours against either the Syrians or the Israelis; the Jordanians might have been a 24 hour war, before the Cedars flag wasn't flying over the Presidential residence.

Whether you want to claim the Syrians (and the Iranians) are at fault; or if you want to claim the Israelis were equally-terroristic in their effect on the Lebanese people, saying they were fully-cognizant and capable of sovereignty in the issue is a bit simplistic.

[Longboardn' ASEL&S]

Whether you want to claim the Syrians (and the Iranians) are at fault; or if you want to claim the Israelis were equally-terroristic in their effect on the Lebanese people, saying they were fully-cognizant and capable of sovereignty in the issue is a bit simplistic.

Not really. There have always been Lebanese Christians in the south that have fought alongside the Israeli army.
If the Lebanese Moslems would have had the courage to stand up to the Islamic fundamentalist/terrorist groups, and recognize the existance of Israel, a coalition spanning the races and religions could have been formed that would have helped wipe out terrorism and led to peace in the middle east.
It was only the Lebanese people believing that siding with any enemy of Israel would be the right thing to do that allowed that situation to continue.
Israel always understood that they would have to co-exist with Arab nations.
It is the refusal to understand that principle that leads moderate Arabs to continue to allow terrorists to thrive.

[RinglingRingling]

Whether you want to claim the Syrians (and the Iranians) are at fault; or if you want to claim the Israelis were equally-terroristic in their effect on the Lebanese people, saying they were fully-cognizant and capable of sovereignty in the issue is a bit simplistic.

Not really. There have always been Lebanese Christians in the south that have fought alongside the Israeli army.
If the Lebanese Moslems would have had the courage to stand up to the Islamic fundamentalist/terrorist groups, and recognize the existance of Israel, a coalition spanning the races and religions could have been formed that would have helped wipe out terrorism and led to peace in the middle east.
It was only the Lebanese people believing that siding with any enemy of Israel would be the right thing to do that allowed that situation to continue.
Israel always understood that they would have to co-exist with Arab nations.
It is the refusal to understand that principle that leads moderate Arabs to continue to allow terrorists to thrive.

while I understand what you are saying, and while I understand the Druze tend towards hewing their own path within the world, that little intramural dustup that made Beirut less the Paris of the Med and more the Sarajevo of it in the mid-70s and 80s didn't help the stability that would have allowed a government speaking with one voice (policy-wise) to resist incursions from both sides. Add to it the lack of will/sympathy for the Palestinian issue on the part of Moslems and the stronger external militaries on all sides, and it makes Lebanese politics positively Byzantine.

[Longboardn' ASEL&S]

While I understand what you are saying, and while I understand the Druze tend towards hewing their own path within the world, that little intramural dustup that made Beirut less the Paris of the Med and more the Sarajevo of it in the mid-70s and 80s didn't help the stability that would have allowed a government speaking with one voice (policy-wise) to resist incursions from both sides. Add to it the lack of will/sympathy for the Palestinian issue on the part of Moslems and the stronger external militaries on all sides, and it makes Lebanese politics positively Byzantine.

The Druze, who actualy serve in the Israeli army, are not who I was refering to.
I was thinking of the Lebanese Christians that loosly were organized and helped by the Israelis.
My basic premis is this:
If moderate Arabs would "get over it", accept that the Jewish people have claimed their ancient homeland with the approval of the U.N., realize that the land was barran and free of oil, that the democratic government of the country had always in the past allowed Islamic residents full rights including representation in Parliment, and actually help any voluntarily displaced Palestinians instead of keeping them in refugee camps and refusing to let them become full members of their own societies,we wouldn't be in the predicament in the middle east that we are.
It is not Israeli displacement of Palestinians that created the problem.
It is the refusal of the Arab nations to absorb those that would have thrived despite the presence of Israel that is responsible.
Forty years ago when Israel claimed the West Bank, Golan Heights, and the Old City of Jerusalem, it was in response to Arab aggression, not simply an act of radical Zionism.
Palestinians ARE now treated as 3rd class citizens, but again that is due to their long history of terrorist acts.
The "sympathetic" people of the world love to scapegoat the Israelis, but history is clear that the presence of the Jewish State could have led to nothing but good for all of the middle east if the Arab leaders would have learned to accept their presence.
The world leaders have'nt solved this problem in over 50 years, and you and I probably won't come to agreement either.
I think Americans are finaly understanding what Israel has been up against in it's dealings with radical Islamists all these years.
The U.S. realizes that in dealing with those extremists some rights will undoubtably be lost for the "enemy" as well as our own people, but that's what fighting terrorism is like.
Some American's underlying anti-semitism is now being tempered by their anti-radical Islamist feelings, and they are able to look at Israel's position more objectively these days.
The world has become a better place due to the technological advances pioneered by the Israelis.
It's just too bad that a stubborn refusal to allow a people to exist (both Jewish and Palestinian) on the part of the Arab nations has been responsible for all of the additional bloodshed.

[horseyparrot]

Now, to speak crudely, i DO absolutely positively HATE PETA. There! I said it!!

you hate

People
Eating
Tastey
Animals???

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.........one of our good friends has that T-shirt!
No, i like THAT PETA. It's those crazy ones that take animals from shelters and kill them, rather than let them get adopted (because they're better off dead than living with caring humans in a domesticated setting, in their opinion) that I can't stand.
To borrow the BN term......total asshats.

[horseyparrot]

While I understand what you are saying, and while I understand the Druze tend towards hewing their own path within the world, that little intramural dustup that made Beirut less the Paris of the Med and more the Sarajevo of it in the mid-70s and 80s didn't help the stability that would have allowed a government speaking with one voice (policy-wise) to resist incursions from both sides. Add to it the lack of will/sympathy for the Palestinian issue on the part of Moslems and the stronger external militaries on all sides, and it makes Lebanese politics positively Byzantine.

The Druze, who actualy serve in the Israeli army, are not who I was refering to.
I was thinking of the Lebanese Christians that loosly were organized and helped by the Israelis.
My basic premis is this:
If moderate Arabs would "get over it", accept that the Jewish people have claimed their ancient homeland with the approval of the U.N., realize that the land was barran and free of oil, that the democratic government of the country had always in the past allowed Islamic residents full rights including representation in Parliment, and actually help any voluntarily displaced Palestinians instead of keeping them in refugee camps and refusing to let them become full members of their own societies,we wouldn't be in the predicament in the middle east that we are.
It is not Israeli displacement of Palestinians that created the problem.
It is the refusal of the Arab nations to absorb those that would have thrived despite the presence of Israel that is responsible.
Forty years ago when Israel claimed the West Bank, Golan Heights, and the Old City of Jerusalem, it was in response to Arab aggression, not simply an act of radical Zionism.
Palestinians ARE now treated as 3rd class citizens, but again that is due to their long history of terrorist acts.
The "sympathetic" people of the world love to scapegoat the Israelis, but history is clear that the presence of the Jewish State could have led to nothing but good for all of the middle east if the Arab leaders would have learned to accept their presence.
The world leaders have'nt solved this problem in over 50 years, and you and I probably won't come to agreement either.
I think Americans are finaly understanding what Israel has been up against in it's dealings with radical Islamists all these years.
The U.S. realizes that in dealing with those extremists some rights will undoubtably be lost for the "enemy" as well as our own people, but that's what fighting terrorism is like.
Some American's underlying anti-semitism is now being tempered by their anti-radical Islamist feelings, and they are able to look at Israel's position more objectively these days.
The world has become a better place due to the technological advances pioneered by the Israelis.
It's just too bad that a stubborn refusal to allow a people to exist (both Jewish and Palestinian) on the part of the Arab nations has been responsible for all of the additional bloodshed.

Too right. Sigh.

We had a saying in our agriculture fraternity about every brother/sister having our own "roving square foot" of the house that belonged to us....
If people over there would just let everyone have their "roving square foot" (i.e. respect each other and everyone's 'personal space') and be mannerly..........maybe they'd get somewhere.

Being as it has been going on for thousands of years, i think it's presumptuous for any outside entity to think they can solve it......though heaven knows the UN would be the ones in the position to try. Seems like the more intervention, the more people have something to fight about....

[LaTda!]

Nice blanket statement there seems like you just pre-judged all environmentalists. I find it hard to believe you've talked with them all & came to the same conclusion. Pre-judge; prejudiced; same thing...
oops, guess I just called you & your wanna-be SUV out
To clarify that I have an original SUV, an old Jeep
I know, I know.... that's kinda like being religious but not going to church-
but then again I'm an Atheist
Have a GREAT Day

Swear to God you're an atheist?

No, it's NOT a wanna-be S.U.V., it's an honest-to-God gas guzzling A-Rab's dream. (Made right here in the good ol' U.S.A., of course). We HAD an old Jeep, but some collector made us an offer we couldn't refuse, now there's a new one in the garage. (Jeep Grand Cherokee, V-8). I drive a Jeep Cherokee at work, but that I have no control over-otherwise it'd be a HUMMER H-1 with a gun turret on top.

And I ALWAYS have a great day, thank you.

My grandpa got me hooked on Jeeps. He had an old immaculate 1946 cj2a.
The car dealership tried to get him to trade it in every year when he got a new car
gun turrets are FUN! we'd play in hummers on duty 1 crazy driver & 1 crazier passenger in the turret- not locked down = good times

PS.

Swear to God you're an atheist?

GOOD one!! & Yes.

[Wino you know]

My grandpa got me hooked on Jeeps. He had an old immaculate 1946 cj2a.
The car dealership tried to get him to trade it in every year when he got a new car
gun turrets are FUN! we'd play in hummers on duty 1 crazy driver & 1 crazier passenger in the turret- not locked down = good times

They're just fun vehicles-especially from your granddather's era.
If your grandfather is still living, ask him if he remembers the Jeep Kaiser. Your parents probably do, and you may as well-you're 40-something, right?

The Jeep Grand Cherokee is fantastic.
I tell everyone the one in the garage is mine, but actually it's my wife who drives it, and, bless her heart, she didn't want me feeling left out, so she lets me make the payments on it while I'm relegated to driving the Mercury.
It's a V-EIGHT. (I keep forgetting the emoticon that appears whenever I try to type in the number).
I can't say enough about the Grand Cherokee.
However, the Jeep CHEROKEE (sans "Grand") that I drive at work is a HUGE P.I.T.A.
Getting into that G.D. thing is about as easy as an elephant getting into a phone booth. And the cage that seperates the front & back seats makes it worse. I can't put the seat back because of it, and with all that crap they make me wear at work makes it all the more impossible. Especially with that f'ing body armor I'm FORCED to wear.
Give me a GRAND CHEROKEE (or Hummer or Tahoe or Suburban) any day of the week.

[flyboy55]

The U.S. has done it (Iraq most recently and others too numerous to mention). The Israelis have done it (Lebanon). Now the Turks have seemingly joined the 'pre-emption' club.

Last time I checked Israel went into Lebanon after the kidnapped Israeli soldiers were showing no chance of being released.
"pre-emption"?
You have not failed to toe the conventional Liberal line in the 4 1/2 months that I have been a proud BNer.
Please show us every once in a while that you actually think for yourself, instead of merely repeating half truths from the leftist camp.
Israel greatly underestimated the enemy they were up against, and suffered a humiliating defeat.
They were, however, fully justified in their action against the terrorists being harbored in Lebanon.
Innocents were killed, but that's war.
The Lebanese should have realized that before granting shelter to the terrorist groups.
Do you have at least ONE centrist comment you can add to the pages of this group?

Just what 'us' are you referring to? As for the rest . . .

The Israelis have a habit (well-documented) of killing 100 innocent bystanders for every 'enemy' they manage to eliminate.

Last year, the Israelis indiscriminately carpeted southern Lebanon with cluster bombs, a particularly heinous act considering that these unobtrusive munitions have maimed and killed (and will continue to do so for many years) hundreds of innocent men, women and children. You may call it eliminating a threat. I think it could fairly be described as a war crime, but then, the Israelis are our 'allies' and we know our allies never commit war crimes.

The picture you paint of the situation in the Middle East in this post and others in this thread indicate to me that perhaps YOU are the one repeating half-truths and NOT thinking for yourself.

A long time ago, I used to feel just like you about the Israelis' position in the Middle East. Since then I've come to understand that today's Palestinians, simultaneously being persecuted and obliterated as a people, are truly the victims of a 'New Apartheid', and real concerns might have been addressed long ago but for the U.S. support for a number of Israeli policies which have caused more problems than they've solved.

It is the West's collective guilt over the Holocaust which has caused us to write the Israelis a moral 'blank cheque', allowing them free reign to do with the Palestinians as they please.

Rather than simply tow the mainstream 'centrist' media line and blame everything on the 'Arabs/Palestinians/terrorists', perhaps you should consult some of the scholarly literature on this issue.

In addition, you might consult some of the domestic Israeli media and discover that my views coincide with those of a considerable number of Israelis.

It might surprise you to know, that just as in this country, Israeli politics have been polarized for many years. Just as in this country, those on the Israeli Right who favor aggressive military action to deal with security issues have run amok. Just as in this country, the Right is supported by Right-wing religious extremists who feel it is part of their religious duty to take ALL the land (occupied territories/ illegal settlements) and exterminate the Palestinian population as interlopers. These extremists are not insignificant in number.

This troubling issue of our time, justice for the Palestinians and security for both them and the Israelis, won't be settled here on BN, but unlike Paris Hilton's problems, when this issue is raised, it can't (and shouldn't) be treated lightly.

My apologies for the long post. I am aware that this IS a Buffett forum after all, where folks come to relax and talk about Buffett . . .

[Longboardn' ASEL&S]

Just what 'us' are you referring to?

I was referring to the membership when I said "us".
As I stated, in the 4 1/2 months that I have been here you have mostly posted classic anti-Bush/pro leftist agenda propaganda. I was saying that regardless of a members allegence, your predictability must be very obvious, some might love it, at least one of us hates it.
I can't think of any other member that has been so polarized and predictible as you have been.
I could have said show "me", since I haven't consulted with any other BNers regarding your dogmatic stance, but since others have posted to the group previously that they were in disagreement with some of your political points of view, I took the liberty of saying "us".

The Israelis have a habit (well-documented) of killing 100 innocent bystanders for every 'enemy' they manage to eliminate.


Such a ridiculous inflammatory remark like that should have been moderated out of this group's archives. Utter BS, and shame on you for attempting to convince BNers of it's validity.






Rather than simply tow the mainstream 'centrist' media line and blame everything on the 'Arabs/Palestinians/terrorists', perhaps you should consult some of the scholarly literature on this issue.

I read the scholarly works regarding the m
Middle East on a weekly basis.
We must have a different opinion of what denotes scholorship.



This troubling issue of our time, justice for the Palestinians and security for both them and the Israelis, won't be settled here on BN, but unlike Paris Hilton's problems, when this issue is raised, it can't (and shouldn't) be treated lightly.

You raised it, by accusing Israel, the U.S. and Turkey of pre-emtive strikes that were bad for the world situation
I saw it as my duty as an American to point out to Bners the falacy of your theory.

My apologies for the long post. I am aware that this IS a Buffett forum after all, where folks come to relax and talk about Buffett . . .

Again, it was you that started the opinionated political thread.
I don't come to BN for that stuff, but can't let it slide without at least informing those that bother to read it that not all of the membership agrees with you

[SMLCHNG]

Thank you, Alan.

[ragtopW]

Now, to speak crudely, i DO absolutely positively HATE PETA. There! I said it!!

you hate

People
Eating
Tastey
Animals???

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.........one of our good friends has that T-shirt!
No, i like THAT PETA. It's those crazy ones that take animals from shelters and kill them, rather than let them get adopted (because they're better off dead than living with caring humans in a domesticated setting, in their opinion) that I can't stand.
To borrow the BN term......total asshats.

I have that shirt too..

[alphabits]

Thank you, Alan.

With all due respect, I say "No thank you".

Does Flyboy have a decidedly left-leaning opinion on most issues? Yes .... and so what. There are plenty of posters on this board who are pro-Bush/anti-left and make that very clear. And again I say, so what.

I don't need anyone who clearly views themself as intellectually superior and possessing the only opinion that matters deciding what should be posted.

[ragtopW]

Thank you, Alan.

With all due respect, I say "No thank you".

Does Flyboy have a decidedly left-leaning opinion on most issues? Yes .... and so what. There are plenty of posters on this board who are pro-Bush/anti-left and make that very clear. And again I say, so what.

I don't need anyone who clearly views themself as intellectually superior and possessing the only opinion that matters deciding what should be posted.

But I am always right..

[alphabits]

Thank you, Alan.

With all due respect, I say "No thank you".

Does Flyboy have a decidedly left-leaning opinion on most issues? Yes .... and so what. There are plenty of posters on this board who are pro-Bush/anti-left and make that very clear. And again I say, so what.

I don't need anyone who clearly views themself as intellectually superior and possessing the only opinion that matters deciding what should be posted.

But I am always right..

Well yeah, but that's different. Santa IS always right. (or maybe I should say correct to avoid any political connotations)