Who's Babysitting YOUR Keets???

[RinglingRingling]

Not to argue with you R2, but saying the 19 year old will suffer just as much even if not jail time is not true. If you know people who have lost young children you would know that those are scars that never heal, ever. And as much guilt as she may have, it will never be anywhere near what they feel. It is a tragedy and the 19 year old made a tragic mistake. To say she should have no jail time and only have her guilt as punishment is not enough. People need to learn that there are consequences for their actions.
Ok, off my soapbox now.

she's carrying two deaths around on her conscience, I have a feeling that kinda weight isn't for the average person to bear.

Cry me a river. She murdered two children. The fact she was unconcious on the couch is the same excuse a drunk driver would use when he/she rams another car.

actually, there is a difference... subtle, but there is a difference.

Not from my perspective. Both are murderers and should be treated as such.

and you are entitled to your opinion....

[buffettbride]

[soapbox]

I had to think about this long and hard. First, I would be devastated if anything like this happened to my babies. My heart truly goes out to this family as I'm sure they are questioning every child-care choice they have ever made.

That said, I'd never leave my children in the care of a 16 (edit, ok, or a 19 year old) year old for more than a few babysitting hours at a time. Surely not for a whole workday on a regular basis. However, I realize that good child care is truly hard to come by. It is expensive and hard to find. The child care options have not caught up with the needs of women (parents) in the workplace. It might look as though it have as you see so many Children's World and Kindercare type establishments popping up---but those places are crap, and parents have to use those types of places out of necessity. The places that do provide excellent care are either a) private home day care workers who often have limited hours or b) outstanding child care facilities which are very expensive (i've paid up to $900 a month for a single child in day care at one time, and the price did not reflect the quality, so even then price is not an indicator of quality child care).

It would be easy to say we should go back to the days when one parent stayed home as the caretaker and another parent worked to provide for the family, but the standard of living has changed so much it's nearly impossible. The families I know who do it that way either have so many children it negates the benefits of having both parents work because one person's salary is mostly devoted to child care costs. The other families I know who do it have the working parent working so many hours to bring in the kind of pay it takes to make a very comfortable living or have the type of uberhighpaying salary job where a stay-at-home-parent situation is possible. I could cite example after example of families I know just like this.

When a parent has to work and the child care options are limited, I can see how a choice could be made to use a teenager for regular child care. I hope with all hope I have the saavy to realize if the person I'm leaving my child with has been drinking or is otherwise going to be a danger to my children. I would gladly walk away from any job to ensure the safety of my children--not an easy choice, mind you, but it should be a no-brainer.

I would absolutely expect the person responsible for this to go to jail for as long as possible. Living with "the guilt" is simply not enough of a consequence for being responsible for someone's child and having them die negligently in your care. If the 19 year old felt she was responsible enough to care for young children, then she needs to be responsible for all of the possible consequences. The parents, also, made a poor child-care choice, but in my not-so-humble opinion, I think the guilt is certainly enough a penalty for them.

[/soapbox]

[buffettbride]

Not to argue with you R2, but saying the 19 year old will suffer just as much even if not jail time is not true. If you know people who have lost young children you would know that those are scars that never heal, ever. And as much guilt as she may have, it will never be anywhere near what they feel. It is a tragedy and the 19 year old made a tragic mistake. To say she should have no jail time and only have her guilt as punishment is not enough. People need to learn that there are consequences for their actions.
Ok, off my soapbox now.

she's carrying two deaths around on her conscience, I have a feeling that kinda weight isn't for the average person to bear.

Cry me a river. She murdered two children. The fact she was unconcious on the couch is the same excuse a drunk driver would use when he/she rams another car.

actually, there is a difference... subtle, but there is a difference.

Not from my perspective. Both are murderers and should be treated as such.

and you are entitled to your opinion....

R2--You obviously don't have children. That 16 year old doesn't deserve the guilt she feels.

Green1--I know you and I are politically on very different ends of the spectrum, but I think your drunk-driver analogy is spot-on.

[caly]

God bless those baby girls.

When it said Jenna was still in her pink sleeper I welled up. Last night we went to see our grand-daughters and the youngest (almost 2) was running around in her pink nightie.
I am sure most of us can't even fathom what the parents are going through.

I hope the girl gets what she deserves.
We all have different views on what that can be, but fortunately we are not the ones to decide.

Sail of Jenna and Maggie.

[CUparrot]

she's carrying two deaths around on her conscience, I have a feeling that kinda weight isn't for the average person to bear.

No, it's not.......but she didn't carry those children in her womb for 9 months, birth those children, feed them in the wee hours of the night, witness their first smiles, first laughs, first steps, first words.....invest everything she was as a person into raising those kids....only to lose them. The guilt she feels, while it may be great, can hardly compare to how it feels to lose your child.

I agree with BB.....you obviously are not a parent.

[RinglingRingling]

she's carrying two deaths around on her conscience, I have a feeling that kinda weight isn't for the average person to bear.

No, it's not.......but she didn't carry those children in her womb for 9 months, birth those children, feed them in the wee hours of the night, witness their first smiles, first laughs, first steps, first words.....invest everything she was as a person into raising those kids....only to lose them. The guilt she feels, while it may be great, can hardly compare to how it feels to lose your child.

I agree with BB.....you obviously are not a parent.

no, I am not. and even if I was, I would hope I hadn't lost one. It might not mean a lot, but I chose not have them until I could a) afford it, and b) provide them a decent standard of living after they were here rather than foist that off on folks around me. You're right, I didn't punch that "ticket" when it comes to being "an adult"...

However... I am sticking with my original position: there is enough blame for this situation to go around for everyone. The babysitter should not have been drinking, she was underage. The one mom should have made the decision to bag it rather than giving the babysitter multiple chances to screw up, including an extra hour of nap time.

and last but not least, who is to say what kind of guilt the babysitter feels or that hers is felt less unless you are actually in a position to compare. It isn't a concept that is readily quantifiable. It's a tragedy, and no one is coming out of it unmarked or unscarred.

[Capt.Flock]

R2 while i respect opinion , i have to disagree with it. True the babysitter will have to live with the guilt. the mother will live with missing so much more. Not seeing her children grow up, hearing the laughter ,feeling the tears on her shoulders as she comforts her child,feeling the love daily , seeing her children dreams not come true.the mother will miss so much more then just having the guilt. that is just my own humble opinion

[buffettbride]

and last but not least, who is to say what kind of guilt the babysitter feels or that hers is felt less unless you are actually in a position to compare. It isn't a concept that is readily quantifiable. It's a tragedy, and no one is coming out of it unmarked or unscarred.

I am a mom and I feel I can absolutely quantify my guilt and pain as being more than that of a caregiver. I don't need a scale or method to quantify it. I'm the mommy (a really, really good one) and I'm entitled. I don't feel entitled to much in this world other than the realm of emotion surrounding my children.

[RinglingRingling]

and last but not least, who is to say what kind of guilt the babysitter feels or that hers is felt less unless you are actually in a position to compare. It isn't a concept that is readily quantifiable. It's a tragedy, and no one is coming out of it unmarked or unscarred.

I am a mom and I feel I can absolutely quantify my guilt and pain as being more than that of a caregiver. I don't need a scale or method to quantify it. I'm the mommy (a really, really good one) and I'm entitled. I don't feel entitled to much in this world other than the realm of emotion surrounding my children.

from your point of view, you can. But you are not the caregiver. Not being inside their head, there is no way to know. There isn't a checklist or metric for it.

As a hypothetical question: the babysitter in PA finds a way to commit suicide in jail, does that mitigate the situation, especially if the note specifically mentions "making amends"?

[green1]

and last but not least, who is to say what kind of guilt the babysitter feels or that hers is felt less unless you are actually in a position to compare. It isn't a concept that is readily quantifiable. It's a tragedy, and no one is coming out of it unmarked or unscarred.

The babysitter's actions show that she has no concept of the depth of guilt a mother could feel. She knew she was going to be babysitting all day, she knew that a mother was going to entrust her children to her care, and she still went out and intentionally got "totally rocked".

When you get between a mother bear and her cubs there is hell to pay. While the actions that emotion causes are not so primitive in humans, the strength of that emotion is the same with every mother I have ever had the fortune of speaking with.

[buffettbride]

and last but not least, who is to say what kind of guilt the babysitter feels or that hers is felt less unless you are actually in a position to compare. It isn't a concept that is readily quantifiable. It's a tragedy, and no one is coming out of it unmarked or unscarred.

I am a mom and I feel I can absolutely quantify my guilt and pain as being more than that of a caregiver. I don't need a scale or method to quantify it. I'm the mommy (a really, really good one) and I'm entitled. I don't feel entitled to much in this world other than the realm of emotion surrounding my children.

from your point of view, you can. But you are not the caregiver. Not being inside their head, there is no way to know. There isn't a checklist or metric for it.

As a hypothetical question: the babysitter in PA finds a way to commit suicide in jail, does that mitigate the situation, especially if the note specifically mentions "making amends"?

There doesn't NEED to be a checklist which is my point. I don't NEED to quantify her feelings because I don't care about them. They are unimportant.

I'm the NOT (oops, i didn't type that right the first time) person who you'll find on either end of the lethal-injection syringe, so the caregiver committing suicide in jail would really not mean a whole lot to me. I certainly wouldn't feel my children's deaths had been vindicated. I wouldn't wish death on this person, just removal from society for however long the law allows (I'd wish forever of course, but I know that wouldn't be the case). Regardless of amends, suicide would have just been one of the extra permanent, bad decisions that person could make. I would not bear any guilt for that on my conscience.

[buffettbride]

the strength of that emotion is the same with every mother I have ever had the fortune of speaking with.

which is the reason for the very perpetuation of humankind. it's what moms do. it's built in. hard wired. not to say there aren't exceptions, but for the most part, how we protect (and provide for) our children is how we define parenthood.

[green1]

the strength of that emotion is the same with every mother I have ever had the fortune of speaking with.

which is the reason for the very perpetuation of humankind. it's what moms do. it's built in. hard wired. not to say there aren't exceptions, but for the most part, how we protect (and provide for) our children is how we define parenthood.

I would even go so far as to say it is not so much how we define parenthood, as it defines who we (mom's and dad's) are.

[green1]

I'm the NOT (oops, i didn't type that right the first time) person who you'll find on either end of the lethal-injection syringe, so the caregiver committing suicide in jail would really not mean a whole lot to me.

I was wondering about that. Freudian slip perhaps?

[buffettbride]

the strength of that emotion is the same with every mother I have ever had the fortune of speaking with.

which is the reason for the very perpetuation of humankind. it's what moms do. it's built in. hard wired. not to say there aren't exceptions, but for the most part, how we protect (and provide for) our children is how we define parenthood.

I would even go so far as to say it is not so much how we define parenthood, as it defines who we (mom's and dad's) are.

absolutely.

[buffettbride]

I'm the NOT (oops, i didn't type that right the first time) person who you'll find on either end of the lethal-injection syringe, so the caregiver committing suicide in jail would really not mean a whole lot to me.

I was wondering about that. Freudian slip perhaps?

Maybe just a little bit.

[RinglingRingling]

and last but not least, who is to say what kind of guilt the babysitter feels or that hers is felt less unless you are actually in a position to compare. It isn't a concept that is readily quantifiable. It's a tragedy, and no one is coming out of it unmarked or unscarred.

I am a mom and I feel I can absolutely quantify my guilt and pain as being more than that of a caregiver. I don't need a scale or method to quantify it. I'm the mommy (a really, really good one) and I'm entitled. I don't feel entitled to much in this world other than the realm of emotion surrounding my children.

from your point of view, you can. But you are not the caregiver. Not being inside their head, there is no way to know. There isn't a checklist or metric for it.

As a hypothetical question: the babysitter in PA finds a way to commit suicide in jail, does that mitigate the situation, especially if the note specifically mentions "making amends"?

There doesn't NEED to be a checklist which is my point. I don't NEED to quantify her feelings because I don't care about them. They are unimportant.

I'm the NOT (oops, i didn't type that right the first time) person who you'll find on either end of the lethal-injection syringe, so the caregiver committing suicide in jail would really not mean a whole lot to me. I certainly wouldn't feel my children's deaths had been vindicated. I wouldn't wish death on this person, just removal from society for however long the law allows (I'd wish forever of course, but I know that wouldn't be the case). Regardless of amends, suicide would have just been one of the extra permanent, bad decisions that person could make. I would not bear any guilt for that on my conscience.

my point is that unless you are inside the other person's head, there is no way you can know for certain that the feeling of loss and/or remorse is greater on one side or the other.

[green1]

my point is that unless you are inside the other person's head, there is no way you can know for certain that the feeling of loss and/or remorse is greater on one side or the other.

You can say the same about any murderer, child abuser, pedophile, arsonist, bank robber, thief or (put any crime here). And as BB said, who cares about their feelings of remorse. They committed the crime, they are no longer fit to reside in society.

[RinglingRingling]

my point is that unless you are inside the other person's head, there is no way you can know for certain that the feeling of loss and/or remorse is greater on one side or the other.

You can say the same about any murderer, child abuser, pedophile, arsonist, bank robber, thief or (put any crime here). And as BB said, who cares about their feelings of remorse. They committed the crime, they are no longer fit to reside in society.

you are entitled to your opinion.

[green1]

my point is that unless you are inside the other person's head, there is no way you can know for certain that the feeling of loss and/or remorse is greater on one side or the other.

You can say the same about any murderer, child abuser, pedophile, arsonist, bank robber, thief or (put any crime here). And as BB said, who cares about their feelings of remorse. They committed the crime, they are no longer fit to reside in society.

you are entitled to your opinion.

So you are saying that people that do these things should not be punished for their actions?