GM on strike...UPDATE...SETTLED!!!!

[Dr.Corona]

A dark day has arrived....GM goes on strike this morning.
There's obviously 2 sides to this story but I'm feeling it for the GM worker and for those worker's who depend upon the GM worker.

SETTLED THIS MORNING...........

[popcornjack]

Fingers crossed that this is resolved quickly.

[krusin1]

Fingers crossed that this is resolved quickly.

Hope so too, BUT...

IMNSHO, going on strike when the Big Three are already reeling is not a real bright move -- sounds like a good excuse to close some excess factories to me...

[mjeischen]

My brother-in-law just started a job a few months ago with a marketing firm that does promo events for GM - specifically pontiac I believe . . . I hope this doesn't effect him in any way.

[RinglingRingling]

Fingers crossed that this is resolved quickly.

Hope so too, BUT...

IMNSHO, going on strike when the Big Three are already reeling is not a real bright move -- sounds like a good excuse to close some excess factories to me...

as long as management is still getting paid the big bucks for taking the company into the dumper...

[citcat]

My brother-in-law just started a job a few months ago with a marketing firm that does promo events for GM - specifically pontiac I believe . . . I hope this doesn't effect him in any way.

The hubby works at Goodyear which provides tires for GM cars. It DOES effect Goodyear, but not to the extent that people will be laid off. I hope.

[krusin1]

Fingers crossed that this is resolved quickly.

Hope so too, BUT...

IMNSHO, going on strike when the Big Three are already reeling is not a real bright move -- sounds like a good excuse to close some excess factories to me...

as long as management is still getting paid the big bucks for taking the company into the dumper...

Hey, be mad at management all you want, but if union demands make it impossible for a company to be competitive, the business goes down the drain and all the workers that used to be on strike suddenly become unemployed.

[RinglingRingling]

Fingers crossed that this is resolved quickly.

Hope so too, BUT...

IMNSHO, going on strike when the Big Three are already reeling is not a real bright move -- sounds like a good excuse to close some excess factories to me...

as long as management is still getting paid the big bucks for taking the company into the dumper...

Hey, be mad at management all you want, but if union demands make it impossible for a company to be competitive, the business goes down the drain and all the workers that used to be on strike suddenly become unemployed.

I hear what you are saying, but unless the pain is felt at all levels, it is hard to be sympathetic to the claims of the ones at the helm when the ship ran aground. Just look at the concessions Northwest took from their pilots, attendants, and mechanics; when the airline turned the corner, there was no effort to make it a reward for all. Management just took their stock option profits and walked away

[krusin1]

Fingers crossed that this is resolved quickly.

Hope so too, BUT...

IMNSHO, going on strike when the Big Three are already reeling is not a real bright move -- sounds like a good excuse to close some excess factories to me...

as long as management is still getting paid the big bucks for taking the company into the dumper...

Hey, be mad at management all you want, but if union demands make it impossible for a company to be competitive, the business goes down the drain and all the workers that used to be on strike suddenly become unemployed.

I hear what you are saying, but unless the pain is felt at all levels, it is hard to be sympathetic to the claims of the ones at the helm when the ship ran aground. Just look at the concessions Northwest took from their pilots, attendants, and mechanics; when the airline turned the corner, there was no effort to make it a reward for all. Management just took their stock option profits and walked away

I'm with you - management ought to take it on the chin, too. One of the smartest management moves I've ever seen was Lee Iacocca taking a salary of $1 /year until Chrysler got back into the black.

A strike's not the answer, though. You said it yourself - even with a strike on, management will still keep collecting their $$.

My point is that at this moment, striking on GM is a little like administering a dose of poison to someone who is already critically ill. Gonna be a lot of pain and I can't foresee any kind of positive outcome.

[RinglingRingling]

Fingers crossed that this is resolved quickly.

Hope so too, BUT...

IMNSHO, going on strike when the Big Three are already reeling is not a real bright move -- sounds like a good excuse to close some excess factories to me...

as long as management is still getting paid the big bucks for taking the company into the dumper...

Hey, be mad at management all you want, but if union demands make it impossible for a company to be competitive, the business goes down the drain and all the workers that used to be on strike suddenly become unemployed.

I hear what you are saying, but unless the pain is felt at all levels, it is hard to be sympathetic to the claims of the ones at the helm when the ship ran aground. Just look at the concessions Northwest took from their pilots, attendants, and mechanics; when the airline turned the corner, there was no effort to make it a reward for all. Management just took their stock option profits and walked away

I'm with you - management ought to take it on the chin, too. One of the smartest management moves I've ever seen was Lee Iacocca taking a salary of $1 /year until Chrysler got back into the black.

A strike's not the answer, though. You said it yourself - even with a strike on, management will still keep collecting their $$.

My point is that at this moment, striking on GM is a little like administering a dose of poison to someone who is already critically ill. Gonna be a lot of pain and I can't foresee any kind of positive outcome.

I agree with you too, but there isn't a lot of accountability on the part of management. It really does have to be "we're in it together" if the company is in danger.

[popcornjack]

According to what i read, the sticking point is that the company wants to dump--to the tune of I believe $51 billion--in unfunded pension and retiree benefits from them onto the UAW, make the union responsible for it. Now, I never even took Econ 101, so someone straighten me out on this, but if the corporation has been the one responsible for providing pensions and benefits for retirees (which doesn't make sense to me, b/c that I always thought was part of the union's responsibility) shouldn't they be the one who funded it? And if they didn't, why dump it on the Union now? Seriously, none of this makes sense to me. I'm awfully smart in a lot of areas but not this one, so if someone can explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

[krusin1]

According to what i read, the sticking point is that the company wants to dump--to the tune of I believe $51 billion--in unfunded pension and retiree benefits from them onto the UAW, make the union responsible for it. Now, I never even took Econ 101, so someone straighten me out on this, but if the corporation has been the one responsible for providing pensions and benefits for retirees (which doesn't make sense to me, b/c that I always thought was part of the union's responsibility) shouldn't they be the one who funded it? And if they didn't, why dump it on the Union now? Seriously, none of this makes sense to me. I'm awfully smart in a lot of areas but not this one, so if someone can explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

Here's my take on it.... (and I could be wrong, but I don't think so)

Quite a while back, when the Big Three were very strong and were THE big dogs in automobile manufacturing, the unions asked for a LOT of stuff, including guaranteed benefit pensions (retirees get a specific list of benefits, regardless of what it was going to cost.)

The Big Three agreed to a lot because they were making lots of $$, health care costs were not out of control, and Detroit couldn't envision losing so much market share to foreign competition.

Since those times, much has changed... the Big Three are VERY threatened by foreign competition, and skyrocketing health care costs make "guaranteed benefits" way unaffordable.

So, now we have a situation where the Big Three are saddled with a lot of costs they can't pay AND remain competitive in the automotive market. Unions (understandably) though, are loathe to give up those benefits, or actually, anything.... would seem like they're betraying their members. (Of course, that's another argument for another day.)

Ends up with a situation where the company balks at requests for more $$, workers go on strike at the union's suggestion, hurts the company that employs them and perhaps down the line somewhere, ends up eliminating their own jobs.

There is no good solution.... Detroit can't afford the benefits they already agreed to, people are counting on those benefits, and the unions fight tooth and nail against any reduction. Ends up with everybody losing.

Lack of foresight on the part of all parties.... BAD, BAD, BAD situation.

[PJ]

The problem I've seen with the UAW is that the union (and the workers) don't seem t want to give an inch on anything in the contracts, even if the stipulations were agreed to 25 or 30 years ago when Detroit was the only real powerhouse in auto manufacturing in America.

I'm not suggesting that the workers give up everything, but you would think that the individual workers (and the union bosses) would understand that a few concessions here and there - modify the guaranteed pension plan, revamp the health care aspects, etc. - might be one of the only lifesaving measures left available for the big three.

If the UAW keeps insisting that the companies coninue to hemmorage money on things they can't afford, and calls strikes that can impact the corporate income, GM, Ford and Chrysler will cease to exist, as will all these union jobs.

I agree that management has to take cuts too, but the union and the line workers have to be willing to make concessions. If the big three go away, what will happen to UAW (aren't most American foreign nameplate factories non-union?) and those workers?

Even with the influx of foreign nameplate manufacturing in the US, you won't have enough open jobs for all the displaced workers, mainly because the foreign nameplates are able to automate to a higher degree because they don't have the union contracts that restrict automation.

[Wino you know]

Plain and simple-I don't foresee it being resolved any time soon.
I hope I'm wrong, but these things ALWAYS seem to last way too long.

[thebeachbumm33]

Well maybe I'm wrong (not that I really care) but when "The Big Three" start making vehicles comparable to the "imports" than they will be able to charge more and be able to pay their workers along with the promises that were made previously.

[Wino you know]

Well maybe I'm wrong (not that I really care) but when "The Big Three" start making vehicles comparable to the "imports" than they will be able to charge more and be able to pay their workers along with the promises that were made previously.

YA KNOW,
you're exactly right on!

[krusin1]

Well maybe I'm wrong (not that I really care) but when "The Big Three" start making vehicles comparable to the "imports" than they will be able to charge more and be able to pay their workers along with the promises that were made previously.

I agree, but that's part of the problem... making vehicles that compare with the imports requires more $$ input of resources (higher quality materials, better/more engineering.) It's really tough to put $$ into materials AND have higher labor costs AND STILL sell the vehicle at a price competitive with the imports.

BAD, BAD, BAD.....

[RinglingRingling]

Well maybe I'm wrong (not that I really care) but when "The Big Three" start making vehicles comparable to the "imports" than they will be able to charge more and be able to pay their workers along with the promises that were made previously.

actually, you are wrong. The quality of a vehicle coming off one of the Big Three lines is comparable to those coming off the Toyota/Honda lines and has been for about 10 years. That particular rap on American automakers hasn't been correct for quite a while.

[Skibo]

Well maybe I'm wrong (not that I really care) but when "The Big Three" start making vehicles comparable to the "imports" than they will be able to charge more and be able to pay their workers along with the promises that were made previously.

actually, you are wrong. The quality of a vehicle coming off one of the Big Three lines is comparable to those coming off the Toyota/Honda lines and has been for about 10 years. That particular rap on American automakers hasn't been correct for quite a while.

My Cheby Avalanche and my wifes Buick Regal shoot a lot of holes in your statement. I was a buy american supporter, I will be purchasing European in the future.

[green1]

Well maybe I'm wrong (not that I really care) but when "The Big Three" start making vehicles comparable to the "imports" than they will be able to charge more and be able to pay their workers along with the promises that were made previously.

actually, you are wrong. The quality of a vehicle coming off one of the Big Three lines is comparable to those coming off the Toyota/Honda lines and has been for about 10 years. That particular rap on American automakers hasn't been correct for quite a while.

Then why are the resale values of most US cars so far below that of Toyotas, Hondas etc?

The fact remains that even when the US produces a care equal in quality to a Toyota, they will never be able to charge a comparable price because the cost of labor in this country is so high.

As for the pensions: The auto industry, I am sure, has been watching the airline industry in regards to the pensions. One of the reasons that the airlines have been filing bankruptcy's is because of the burden of the pensions. Once in bankruptcy, the airline company has asked for, and in some cases received a ruling from the judge to write off the pensions. Not good for company morale, and not good to retain quality emplpoyees, but necesssary to avoid total collapse. The auto industry has seen this and knows that if worse comes to worse they can pursue the same option. But the fact that they are pushing for the unions to take it, is at least an effort to keep the pensions alive.