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drunkpirate66 wrote:

The Yankees current rotation

1. Wang
2. Petitte
3. Hughes
4. Kartsens
5. Kennedy

you like that!?


The Rays . . .

1. Kazmir
2. Shields
3. Garza
4. Jackson
5. Nieman . . .

at 1/2 the cost . . . I will take the Rays. No joke.

jonesbeach10 wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:Can't firgure out the Yankees . . .

they don't pony up the money for Dice K . . . they were outbid by the Red Sox. I know the pitching market is expensive, but I don't think a #2 or 3 starter is worth $100 million

Ok . . . but then they spend 40 something million on a nob like Kei Igawa . .
pure reaction move that flopped. He's a nob just like his buddy Carl Pavano. Won't argue that

. OK . . . . and then they go out and spend 25 million too much on Clemens .
At the time, they needed another pitcher because of the huge hole they were in. Fact of the matter is, as overpaid as he was (not gonna argue that), he provided stability to the rotation. I think the amount of shock there was over Clemens salary about equaled the amount of money Dice K got.

. . OK . . . then they won't put Ian Kennedy in a deal for Johan Santana but they will put Phillip Hughes in . . .
They did originally offer Kennedy and Melky Cabrera and mid-level, but the Twins wanted more. So they upped it with Hughes. Twins didn't like that deal and the Yankees backed out. Good for them. For as much as they would have had to pay Santana, I'd almost rather have a much cheaper Hughes or Kennedy.

OK . . . now it appears they lost Santana because of it . . . OK . . . so they sign an oldie Pettite who won't do much
Pettitte had a great year last year. Pitched great down the stretch and had the best start of any Yankee in the postseason.

. . . OK . . . and now it appears they lost out to Dan Haren at Arizona who is offering Conor Jackson . . . so now the Yankees are stuck with little no pitching and a horrible bull pen . . . OK.
As of now, their rotation is CM Wang who's going to win 15-20 games, Phil Hughes, who was brilliant for the Yankees in the postseason, and if he didn't get hurt probably would have made Clemens irrelevant last year. I think he wins 15-20 games also. Apparently, Joba is going to start because the Yankees are higher on him than they are on Hughes. If that's true, throw him in for 15-20 wins. Pettitte should give the Yankees 13-17 wins. Mussina probably 10-15. Add Kennedy in there probably for 10-15 wins if he starts. The problem for the Yankees isn't going to be starting pitching, I think they have plenty of that.

The problem is relief. As of now they have an aging Rivera, an inconsistent at best Farnsworth and Luis Vizcaino who wore down because Torre constantly turned to him. Both are 7th inning guys at best. I would love to see Joba go back to the pen a la Papelbon, and get eased into the closer role. Joba and Rivera would make one of the best 8th-9th inning guys in the majors and

CaptainP wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

The Yankees current rotation

1. Wang
2. Petitte
3. Hughes
4. Kartsens
5. Kennedy

you like that!?


The Rays . . .

1. Kazmir
2. Shields
3. Garza
4. Jackson
5. Nieman . . .

at 1/2 the cost . . . I will take the Rays. No joke.

While I agree...I think Mussina can earn his way back into the Yanks rotation (YES, that would be an improvement, despite his recent struggles), or Chamberlain could start. And, as a Rays fan, I don't like to count on Jackson for anything. He's had too many failures. He's not a big-time prospect anymore, he's now just a reclaimation project. (You mention Willis as a WHIP problem....look at Jackson!!! Career BEST WHIP was 1.702). Maybe David Price will be ready...

CaptainP wrote:I love having people here who really know baseball. I went WAY too long without having anyone to chat with. Now I have a guy at work (Todd), and the BN team. Even if Jon is wrong all the time.

CaptainP wrote:Now, despite the fact that I think Detroit made a good trade, I don't count on Cabrera being an MVP right away or anything.

There is a reason I pointed out his batting average before anything else. Cabrera is moving to a ballpark that is not power-friendly. Don't expect a 45-homer year from Cabrera anytime soon. But I can easily see him turning into another Magglio Ordonez for them. High average, decent power.

CaptainP wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:Don't be so quick to bash the Tigers. They want to win NOW.
They got 2 potential Superstars who are 27 and 25 years old.
They gave up a lot of future prospects, but look at their lineup and rotation. Do they really need them?

ROTATION:
Justin Verlander
Jeremy Bonderman
Dontrelle Willis
Kenny Rogers
Nate Robertson

LINEUP:
C Rodriguez
1B Guillen
2B Polanco
SS Renteria
3B Cabrera
OF Granderson, Ordonez, Jones
DH Sheffield

Nice mix of experience and youth. Very few holes left...Robertson & Jones maybe...The bullpen is solid once Zumaya comes back from a fluke injury (hurt while escaping the fires in San Diego)


They may have given up a lot, but they also can compete with anyone in the AL now.

There should be no argument when I say: Andrew Miller is twice the pitcher of Dontrelle Willis . . . Willis got lit up in the NL . . . he is going to get slammed in the AL . . .

Miller is younger, cheaper, and most importantly better . . .

and given a year, Maybin will be a premiere outfielder . . . I argue (and I really hate fat, slow power guys) that Maybin is more valuable than Cabrera . . . now.


Overall . . . poor move for the Tigers . . . their pitching staff got worse . . . and, although they added power; it was through a fat, slow, K' machine who is a medioce defender at best.

I'll never be able to convince you any different. Not if this is your honest opinion of a career .312 hitter, who is only 25 years old and has 5 years experience already.

And your opinion of Willis is clearly based on ONE season, playing for a pathetic team. He entered 2007 with a career ERA of 3.68 and a record of 19 games above .500. One bad year has soured you. And since you seem to love the "moneyball" type of stats....look at his K to BB ratio....more than 2 to 1 over his career.

chippewa wrote:All the experts say Maybin will be great in time, but he was clearly overmatched this year. Given his youth and the fact that he never played triple A, that's to be expected. But when Detroit traded Monroe and gave Maybin the job, quite often he looked like the freshman kid brought up to the varsity. Word was that he wouldn't make the team coming north this season, which I think was the right call. As far as Miller, right now he's another "potential" guy. Flashes of brilliance, but wild as heck. The Tigers are looking to win now, so trading potential for proven performers makes sense.

I still say the one guy they should have kept was Jair Jurrjens, traded in the Renteria deal.

SuperTrooper wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:Don't be so quick to bash the Tigers. They want to win NOW.
They got 2 potential Superstars who are 27 and 25 years old.
They gave up a lot of future prospects, but look at their lineup and rotation. Do they really need them?

ROTATION:
Justin Verlander
Jeremy Bonderman
Dontrelle Willis
Kenny Rogers
Nate Robertson

LINEUP:
C Rodriguez
1B Guillen
2B Polanco
SS Renteria
3B Cabrera
OF Granderson, Ordonez, Jones
DH Sheffield

Nice mix of experience and youth. Very few holes left...Robertson & Jones maybe...The bullpen is solid once Zumaya comes back from a fluke injury (hurt while escaping the fires in San Diego)


They may have given up a lot, but they also can compete with anyone in the AL now.

There should be no argument when I say: Andrew Miller is twice the pitcher of Dontrelle Willis . . . Willis got lit up in the NL . . . he is going to get slammed in the AL . . .

Miller is younger, cheaper, and most importantly better . . .

and given a year, Maybin will be a premiere outfielder . . . I argue (and I really hate fat, slow power guys) that Maybin is more valuable than Cabrera . . . now.


Overall . . . poor move for the Tigers . . . their pitching staff got worse . . . and, although they added power; it was through a fat, slow, K' machine who is a medioce defender at best.

I'll never be able to convince you any different. Not if this is your honest opinion of a career .312 hitter, who is only 25 years old and has 5 years experience already.

And your opinion of Willis is clearly based on ONE season, playing for a pathetic team. He entered 2007 with a career ERA of 3.68 and a record of 19 games above .500. One bad year has soured you. And since you seem to love the "moneyball" type of stats....look at his K to BB ratio....more than 2 to 1 over his career.

I've had my eye on Willis for a while since I assumed Florida would trade him at some point. 2007 was truly a BAD year for him. IP was way down and hits were way up. Not a good way to come to the AL, which usually bumps up ERA by 1. 5 games he didn't get out of the 4th inning. He looks like a player that needs to grow up and learn how to "pitch", not throw. I worry he might be a bit of a headcase since he seemed to spiral out of control any time things went wrong. Pitching coach Chuck Hernandez will have his hands full.

drunkpirate66 wrote:

chippewa wrote:All the experts say Maybin will be great in time, but he was clearly overmatched this year. Given his youth and the fact that he never played triple A, that's to be expected. But when Detroit traded Monroe and gave Maybin the job, quite often he looked like the freshman kid brought up to the varsity. Word was that he wouldn't make the team coming north this season, which I think was the right call. As far as Miller, right now he's another "potential" guy. Flashes of brilliance, but wild as heck. The Tigers are looking to win now, so trading potential for proven performers makes sense.

I still say the one guy they should have kept was Jair Jurrjens, traded in the Renteria deal.

trading Jurrens and Miller for Rent - a - Wreck and Cabrera will prove to be a mistake. There is really nothing left to say . . .

and 4 members of the Tiger's rotation and their closer had ERA's well over 4.00 last season . . . not looking too good.

drunkpirate66 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:I love having people here who really know baseball. I went WAY too long without having anyone to chat with. Now I have a guy at work (Todd), and the BN team. Even if Jon is wrong all the time.

I will go along with this too . . .

and I will make another bold prediction . . . the Brewers will not win as many games in 2008 as they did in 2007; unless they make a big move before April.

As much as I like Braun his numbers will not be, on percentage, in 162 games in 2008 as productive as he was in 2007 . . . other than errors . . . and the bull pen, in its current state, is sh it.

CaptainP wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:I love having people here who really know baseball. I went WAY too long without having anyone to chat with. Now I have a guy at work (Todd), and the BN team. Even if Jon is wrong all the time.

I will go along with this too . . .

and I will make another bold prediction . . . the Brewers will not win as many games in 2008 as they did in 2007; unless they make a big move before April.

As much as I like Braun his numbers will not be, on percentage, in 162 games in 2008 as productive as he was in 2007 . . . other than errors . . . and the bull pen, in its current state, is sh it.

They're revamping the bullpen. Bringing in a lot of veterans to try out. Not really tied to any of them. David Riske, Guillermo Mota. Relief pitchers are a strange animal. Can have a great year after a bad one. That's what Doug Melvin is looking for.

They did turn down a chance to trade for Chad Cordero. Didn't want to give up Rickie Weeks.

chippewa wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

chippewa wrote:All the experts say Maybin will be great in time, but he was clearly overmatched this year. Given his youth and the fact that he never played triple A, that's to be expected. But when Detroit traded Monroe and gave Maybin the job, quite often he looked like the freshman kid brought up to the varsity. Word was that he wouldn't make the team coming north this season, which I think was the right call. As far as Miller, right now he's another "potential" guy. Flashes of brilliance, but wild as heck. The Tigers are looking to win now, so trading potential for proven performers makes sense.

I still say the one guy they should have kept was Jair Jurrjens, traded in the Renteria deal.

trading Jurrens and Miller for Rent - a - Wreck and Cabrera will prove to be a mistake. There is really nothing left to say . . .

and 4 members of the Tiger's rotation and their closer had ERA's well over 4.00 last season . . . not looking too good.

I'll take my chances with the starting rotation, it's the bullpen that scares the heck out of me. Willis will be about the #4 guy (+ or - 1), so I don't think he'll be asked to go way over 200 innings like he has in the past. You can't put guys like Jason Grilli out there and expect to hold many leads. They'll outscore people in the regular season, but you can't win that way in the playoffs.

Capt.Flock wrote:

CaptainP wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

CaptainP wrote:I love having people here who really know baseball. I went WAY too long without having anyone to chat with. Now I have a guy at work (Todd), and the BN team. Even if Jon is wrong all the time.

I will go along with this too . . .

and I will make another bold prediction . . . the Brewers will not win as many games in 2008 as they did in 2007; unless they make a big move before April.

As much as I like Braun his numbers will not be, on percentage, in 162 games in 2008 as productive as he was in 2007 . . . other than errors . . . and the bull pen, in its current state, is sh it.

They're revamping the bullpen. Bringing in a lot of veterans to try out. Not really tied to any of them. David Riske, Guillermo Mota. Relief pitchers are a strange animal. Can have a great year after a bad one. That's what Doug Melvin is looking for.

They did turn down a chance to trade for Chad Cordero. Didn't want to give up Rickie Weeks.

drunkpirate66 wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:

jonesbeach10 wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:Can't firgure out the Yankees . . .

they don't pony up the money for Dice K . . . they were outbid by the Red Sox. I know the pitching market is expensive, but I don't think a #2 or 3 starter is worth $100 million

Ok . . . but then they spend 40 something million on a nob like Kei Igawa . .
pure reaction move that flopped. He's a nob just like his buddy Carl Pavano. Won't argue that

. OK . . . . and then they go out and spend 25 million too much on Clemens .
At the time, they needed another pitcher because of the huge hole they were in. Fact of the matter is, as overpaid as he was (not gonna argue that), he provided stability to the rotation. I think the amount of shock there was over Clemens salary about equaled the amount of money Dice K got.

. . OK . . . then they won't put Ian Kennedy in a deal for Johan Santana but they will put Phillip Hughes in . . .
They did originally offer Kennedy and Melky Cabrera and mid-level, but the Twins wanted more. So they upped it with Hughes. Twins didn't like that deal and the Yankees backed out. Good for them. For as much as they would have had to pay Santana, I'd almost rather have a much cheaper Hughes or Kennedy.

OK . . . now it appears they lost Santana because of it . . . OK . . . so they sign an oldie Pettite who won't do much
Pettitte had a great year last year. Pitched great down the stretch and had the best start of any Yankee in the postseason.

. . . OK . . . and now it appears they lost out to Dan Haren at Arizona who is offering Conor Jackson . . . so now the Yankees are stuck with little no pitching and a horrible bull pen . . . OK.
As of now, their rotation is CM Wang who's going to win 15-20 games, Phil Hughes, who was brilliant for the Yankees in the postseason, and if he didn't get hurt probably would have made Clemens irrelevant last year. I think he wins 15-20 games also. Apparently, Joba is going to start because the Yankees are higher on him than they are on Hughes. If that's true, throw him in for 15-20 wins. Pettitte should give the Yankees 13-17 wins. Mussina probably 10-15. Add Kennedy in there probably for 10-15 wins if he starts. The problem for the Yankees isn't going to be starting pitching, I think they have plenty of that.

The problem is relief. As of now they have an aging Rivera, an inconsistent at best Farnsworth and Luis Vizcaino who wore down because Torre constantly turned to him. Both are 7th inning guys at best. I would love to see Joba go back to the pen a la Papelbon, and get eased into the closer role. Joba and Rivera would make one of the best 8th-9th inning guys in the majors and

You are entitled to your opinion, of course . . . but Ian Kennedy, Kei Igawa, and especially Mike Mussina are worth about sh it. Kennedy could be a decent 5 starter at best on the Red Sox.

I like Wang (joke . . . here) . . . and Hughes in about a year . . . Pettite might win 12 . . . but as a whole the staff for the Yankees right now is pretty darn bad.

The bottom line is simple: as it is right now there is no way that rotation can compete with the Red Sox' rotation with or without Santana . . .

Well, I don't think many would argue that the Sox have a better rotation. I don't think however, the Rays have a better rotation on paper, when I can't name two off the top of my head without looking! After looking, yeah Kazmir's nice, but are you really going to say Jaimie Shields is better than Andy Pettitte? Can you say Matt Garza is going to be better than Phil Hughes?

Either way, Cashman said he isn't done yet, and last I heard, he was looking into Eric Bedard, and still looking into the bullpen (even though it's pretty much a crapshoot these days).

Look . . . with all due respect you are just plain wrong on Mussina. He is done. If he wins over 12 games in 2008 I will buy you and your boys a Keg . . . he is not even a starter . . .

It all started, really, with Dice K. From there, the Yankees were forced into:

1. Spending too much on Igawa who spent over half the season in the minors

2. Using way too many minor league pitchers who weren't ready for Triple A let alone the majors

3. Signing Clemens to the worst contract in the history of MLB.


The Yankees current rotation

1. Wang
2. Petitte
3. Hughes
4. Kartsens
5. Kennedy

you like that!?


The Rays . . .

1. Kazmir
2. Shields
3. Garza
4. Jackson
5. Nieman . . .

at 1/2 the cost . . . I will take the Rays. No joke.

CaptainP wrote:Bedard to the Blue Jays won't happen. That was just someone's wet dream because he's a Canadian.

CaptainP wrote:Giants are mulling an offer from Toronto....Alex Rios for Tim Lincecum.