Not the KGB. Yet.

moog · Post by **moog** » November 28, 2007 5:21 pm

Thankfully it was a good judge. But how long will it be before we become what we use to fight against:

http://www.news.com/Feds-lose-bid-for-A ... l?part=dtx

Federal prosecutors tried unsuccessfully to force Amazon.com to identify thousands of innocent customers who bought books online, then abandoned the idea after a judge rebuked them.

In an order that was sealed but has now become public, U.S. District Judge Stephen Crocker rejected the Justice Department's subpoena for details on Amazon's customers and their purchasing habits. Prosecutors had claimed the details would help them prove their case against a former Madison, Wisc., city official charged with tax evasion related to selling used books through Amazon.

"The subpoena is troubling because it permits the government to peek into the reading habits of specific individuals without their prior knowledge or permission," Crocker wrote in June. Amazon filed the lawsuit to quash the grand jury subpoena.

popcornjack · Post by **popcornjack** » November 28, 2007 5:28 pm

But if we don't let them do this, then we're not being patriotic and the terrorists win.

moog · Post by **moog** » November 28, 2007 5:40 pm

Oh oh. This is can be subpoenaed.
Ummm, I don't know this popcornjack guy.

gassman · Post by **gassman** » November 28, 2007 6:46 pm

good deal anything that keeps the government out of my privacy is a good thing and don't give me that crap "if you don't have anything to hide why do you care?"

fruityparrothead · Post by **fruityparrothead** » November 28, 2007 7:31 pm

This makes me think twice about buying online. ugh--sigh

Maybe I should just head to the used book store in my area................and pay with CASH!

(yes I still use cash AND checks{on occassion}...GASP...the horror). LOL

nutmeg · Post by **nutmeg** » November 28, 2007 7:39 pm

I recently got an e-mail from Barnes and Noble saying that they had a new book out by an author I had previously purchased.

I guess that's what you get for joining their membership/discount club.

And I get stuff all the time from Amazon recommending knitting or polymer clay books to me. And they send me an e-mail whenever Buffett comes out with anything

Don't you think that sometimes Amazon knows your habits better than your own family

Skibo · Post by **Skibo** » November 28, 2007 10:44 pm

Erm...This really isn't anything new. I am very surprised that Amazon won. Just this week, police tracked down a mother that abandoned her baby by tracking records from a Target. Part of OJ's framing involved purchase records of shoes that matched footprints at the crimescene.

When I first saw the story I thought purchase patterns were being used to profile people but it was more to be used as evidence in a case where a person was illegally selling books. Amazon was the agent for the seller and had the records of his sales. They would have been the exact same records the seller would have if he was properly accounting for his business.

moog · Post by **moog** » November 29, 2007 2:46 am

But the concern is the fishing expedition for this case. Looking up people's history, without permission, who made purchases off this guy. If he was doing an offline business, chances are customers would paid cash without giving their names or mailing addresses. Therefore no record of who has what. A hot dog vendor near me didn't pay his taxes and was shut down. The feds didn't look for it's customers who purchased weenies. Bold my emphasis.

"Initially, prosecutors demanded "virtually all" records from Amazon dealing with D'Angelo, including "the identities of thousands of customers who had bought used books" from him, according to court documents. Prosecutors subsequently narrowed the request to 120 book buyers, 30 per year for the four years under investigation--on the theory that FBI and IRS agents could then contact those 120 customers."

Person A made a purchase off this guy and the feds see something that person A may have purchased. Hmmm. How to role joints. Hmm, let's see what else. He's single and buys books on Karma Sutra. Must be a pervert. We'll make sure he doesn't live or work near a school.

Even paying cash your habits can be recorded. If you want 30-40 percent off books, B&N and Borders require a swipe card. But I think you can give false info to get these cards. Just say no to any store credit cards.

Of course if you want to save money at a supermarket, you must have a swipe card. The excuse is that it serves you better. Why? Stores didn't have discounts before this decade? It's all for marketing. Serve their needs not mine. I do, like an obedient consumer, use the cards

The chances are somewhere someplace we all leave breadcumbs. Social number, credit card, phone number, name, drivers license with barcodes, EZ Pass, health care, banks, mortgage, utility bills, checks, web forums... Not much control unless you want to live like Jeremiah Johnson. The stuff we can control at this point is useless. Unless a big magnetic storm wipes all databases clean.

popcornjack · Post by **popcornjack** » November 29, 2007 2:52 am

moog wrote:

Oh oh. This is can be subpoenaed.
Ummm, I don't know this popcornjack guy.

....like I've never heard that before.....

moog · Post by **moog** » November 29, 2007 3:02 am

Wait. Let me get a little closer. The hidden mic isn't picking up what you said.

But keep in mind when we talk on the phone:

http://www.moviequotequiz.com/othersounds/Me.wav

popcornjack · Post by **popcornjack** » November 29, 2007 3:05 am

"Hey, it's Dave."
"Who?"
"It's Dave. Let me in."
"Dave's not here, man."
"I know. I'm Dave."
"Who?"
"Dave."
"Dave's not here, man."

Gotta love Cheech and Chong.

RinglingRingling · Post by **RinglingRingling** » November 29, 2007 5:43 am

fruityparrothead wrote:This makes me think twice about buying online. ugh--sigh

Maybe I should just head to the used book store in my area................and pay with CASH! (yes I still use cash AND checks{on occassion}...GASP...the horror). LOL

The Visa checkcard commercials where the guy paying cash supposedly inconveniences everyone... just annoy me.

I may be old-fashioned, but if you aren't carrying at least $5 on you, maybe you need to make a trip to the ATM because using a debit card swipe for a $1 purchase is just silly.

RinglingRingling · Post by **RinglingRingling** » November 29, 2007 5:47 am

moog wrote:But the concern is the fishing expedition for this case. Looking up people's history, without permission, who made purchases off this guy. If he was doing an offline business, chances are customers would paid cash without giving their names or mailing addresses. Therefore no record of who has what. A hot dog vendor near me didn't pay his taxes and was shut down. The feds didn't look for it's customers who purchased weenies. Bold my emphasis.

"Initially, prosecutors demanded "virtually all" records from Amazon dealing with D'Angelo, including "the identities of thousands of customers who had bought used books" from him, according to court documents. Prosecutors subsequently narrowed the request to 120 book buyers, 30 per year for the four years under investigation--on the theory that FBI and IRS agents could then contact those 120 customers."

Person A made a purchase off this guy and the feds see something that person A may have purchased. Hmmm. How to role joints. Hmm, let's see what else. He's single and buys books on Karma Sutra. Must be a pervert. We'll make sure he doesn't live or work near a school.

Even paying cash your habits can be recorded. If you want 30-40 percent off books, B&N and Borders require a swipe card. But I think you can give false info to get these cards. Just say no to any store credit cards.

Of course if you want to save money at a supermarket, you must have a swipe card. The excuse is that it serves you better. Why? Stores didn't have discounts before this decade? It's all for marketing. Serve their needs not mine. I do, like an obedient consumer, use the cards

The chances are somewhere someplace we all leave breadcumbs. Social number, credit card, phone number, name, drivers license with barcodes, EZ Pass, health care, banks, mortgage, utility bills, checks, web forums... Not much control unless you want to live like Jeremiah Johnson. The stuff we can control at this point is useless. Unless a big magnetic storm wipes all databases clean.

on this, (at least here when they implemented it at everything but Meijer), they just raised the prices and the "discount price" was what you were paying before the new program in many cases. Tho, you can give them a false name and address for this too. And, if you wear out your old card (the one that goes on the keyring, the store people have been known to hand you a replacement without making you fill out the forms again...)

RinglingRingling · Post by **RinglingRingling** » November 29, 2007 5:47 am

popcornjack wrote:
moog wrote:

Oh oh. This is can be subpoenaed.
Ummm, I don't know this popcornjack guy.
....like I've never heard that before.....

but when Mom says it... that's gotta be bad.

Y-NO-9-O · Post by **Y-NO-9-O** » November 29, 2007 6:45 am

RinglingRingling wrote: The Visa checkcard commercials where the guy paying cash supposedly inconveniences everyone... just annoy me.

I may be old-fashioned, but if you aren't carrying at least $5 on you, maybe you need to make a trip to the ATM because using a debit card swipe for a $1 purchase is just silly.

I had the opposite experience recently. There were 7 of us out together and the bill came. It came to exactly $20 each with the tip. Each guys pulls the cash out of his wallet except 1. But he doesn't want to do the "give me the cash and I will pay the whole bill on my card" thing, so he has the waitress split the bill. We had to wait an extra 10 minutes for her to do this. The first thing that came to my mind was those stupid commercials.

RinglingRingling · Post by **RinglingRingling** » November 29, 2007 6:56 am

Y-NO-9-O wrote:
RinglingRingling wrote: The Visa checkcard commercials where the guy paying cash supposedly inconveniences everyone... just annoy me.

I may be old-fashioned, but if you aren't carrying at least $5 on you, maybe you need to make a trip to the ATM because using a debit card swipe for a $1 purchase is just silly.
I had the opposite experience recently. There were 7 of us out together and the bill came. It came to exactly $20 each with the tip. Each guys pulls the cash out of his wallet except 1. But he doesn't want to do the "give me the cash and I will pay the whole bill on my card" thing, so he has the waitress split the bill. We had to wait an extra 10 minutes for her to do this. The first thing that came to my mind was those stupid commercials.

and the second thing, "Dave is never coming with us again.."?

FunkHouse9 · Post by **FunkHouse9** » November 29, 2007 9:16 am

RinglingRingling wrote:I may be old-fashioned, but if you aren't carrying at least $5 on you, maybe you need to make a trip to the ATM because using a debit card swipe for a $1 purchase is just silly.

I'd have to say the opposite. I think running to an ATM to get cash to buy something for a dollar when you can just use a debit card instead is unnecessary. I can't remember the last time I used cash for something besides a parking meter and I probably haven't written a check in a year.

RinglingRingling · Post by **RinglingRingling** » November 29, 2007 9:26 am

FunkHouse9 wrote:
RinglingRingling wrote:I may be old-fashioned, but if you aren't carrying at least $5 on you, maybe you need to make a trip to the ATM because using a debit card swipe for a $1 purchase is just silly.
I'd have to say the opposite. I think running to an ATM to get cash to buy something for a dollar when you can just use a debit card instead is unnecessary. I can't remember the last time I used cash for something besides a parking meter and I probably haven't written a check in a year.

I still write checks, it lets me know I am spending money. A "swipe and scribble" doesn't seem to make a lasting impression.

LIPH · Post by **LIPH** » November 29, 2007 9:28 am

I pay cash instead of swiping my debit card because I can't be bothered making all those entries in my check book to keep track of where my money is going. It's a lot easier to go to the ATM every 2 weeks on payday and only make 1 entry in the book.

z-man · Post by **z-man** » November 29, 2007 9:56 am

LIPH wrote:I pay cash instead of swiping my debit card because I can't be bothered making all those entries in my check book to keep track of where my money is going. It's a lot easier to go to the ATM every 2 weeks on payday and only make 1 entry in the book.

But if you bank online, every swipe is recorded as a transaction and is easy to track.