Universal Healthcare . . .

[flyboy55]

[

Don't mean to speak for Rick, but...

IMHO, I don't think he (or I) buy the premise that we wouldn't have clean water, clean air, etc. etc. etc. except for the efforts of the selfless, pure-hearted, peace/love/sunshine liberals.

you are pretty much right. Both liberals and conservatives s u c k though and both are to blame for the demise we are currently facing. IMO I think we are headed straight to a path of the downfall of this country with a socialism agenda on the horizon.

While I will agree that the liberals cannot truthfully claim credit for all of those things since they all required bi-partisan support. I do think it is important to recognize that the government should be given credit for doing somethings successfully (at least to some extent). I also think from a historical perspective that it is accurate to say that the free market forces were not delivering clean air and clean water in this country. If you aren't old enough to remember the late 50's and early 60's, let me suggest you do some reading and see just how bad things had gotten in terms of the environment.

want some real interesting reading read about Joe McCarthy aka McCarthyism

I always thought he was unfairly branded . . .

Honestly it's kinda boring reading but damn what they did to him

Careful . . . your (________) is showing.

McCarthy unfairly branded? I recommend a study of history to those too young to have lived through the McCarthy era. To say that McCarthy was unfairly branded is to turn history upside down, not to mention the damage this statement does to the meaning of the English language. One might as well assert that 'black is white'.

Acutally, such inversions of truth do have many historical precedents. I'll leave you to guess which one I'm referring to when I say it happened over 70 years ago in a country which started two wars in the last century and lost them both.

[jonesbeach10]

Something that a friend of mine forwarded to me as a reminder that many things happen because of the government that wouldn't happen otherwise.

A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare
his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some
tree-hugging liberal

~snip~

After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care
of themselves, just like I have."

lol what a great story, load of crap but great story

I'm curious Rick, what part of this do you think is crap? Do you think that it is crap that the government did these things, as opposed to allowing the free market forces to work?

Don't mean to speak for Rick, but...

IMHO, I don't think he (or I) buy the premise that we wouldn't have clean water, clean air, etc. etc. etc. except for the efforts of the selfless, pure-hearted, peace/love/sunshine liberals.

I'm a rock-ribbed conservative, but if I was faced with the prospect of drinking nasty water, you can bet I'd get the problem solved, too.

Exactly . . . the parks system and pretty much modern conservation was started under Teddy Roosevelt, not your garden variety liberal at at all.

Add to the fact that the organization that oversees so many of things described above like clean water was created by Richard Nixon, who definitely wasn't a liberal either (I'm talking about the EPA of course).

[ConchRepublican]

you are pretty much right. Both liberals and conservatives s u c k though and both are to blame for the demise we are currently facing. IMO I think we are headed straight to a path of the downfall of this country with a socialism agenda on the horizon.

While I will agree that the liberals cannot truthfully claim credit for all of those things since they all required bi-partisan support. I do think it is important to recognize that the government should be given credit for doing somethings successfully (at least to some extent). I also think from a historical perspective that it is accurate to say that the free market forces were not delivering clean air and clean water in this country. If you aren't old enough to remember the late 50's and early 60's, let me suggest you do some reading and see just how bad things had gotten in terms of the environment.

want some real interesting reading read about Joe McCarthy aka McCarthyism

I always thought he was unfairly branded . . .

Honestly it's kinda boring reading but damn what they did to him

Careful . . . your (________) is showing.

McCarthy unfairly branded? I recommend a study of history to those too young to have lived through the McCarthy era. To say that McCarthy was unfairly branded is to turn history upside down, not to mention the damage this statement does to the meaning of the English language. One might as well assert that 'black is white'.

Acutally, such inversions of truth do have many historical precedents. I'll leave you to guess which one I'm referring to when I say it happened over 70 years ago in a country which started two wars in the last century and lost them both.

Well, if even CNN will admit that there was something going on . . . http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/ep ... /then.now/

Granted, I did not live through it, but I do know that with the wall coming down and documents coming to light, there are MANY who feel that McCarthy was on the right track. Perhaps his tactics were off, or things could have been handled better, but there definitely was a Soviet infiltration of the United States and a concerted effort to undermine us from within. (Take a look at todays college campuses and you'd wonder is they didn't actually win, but I digress)

All I mean is, I think the brand on him as this almost white hooded Klan member when it comes to communists infiltrating the US is not correct and that he was a man who saw a threat and decided to do something about it.

[12vmanRick]

Careful . . . your (________) is showing.

at least mine doesn't show every time I type something

[The Lost Manatee]

Something that a friend of mine forwarded to me as a reminder that many things happen because of the government that wouldn't happen otherwise.

A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare
his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some
tree-hugging liberal

~snip~

After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care
of themselves, just like I have."

lol what a great story, load of crap but great story

I'm curious Rick, what part of this do you think is crap? Do you think that it is crap that the government did these things, as opposed to allowing the free market forces to work?

Don't mean to speak for Rick, but...

IMHO, I don't think he (or I) buy the premise that we wouldn't have clean water, clean air, etc. etc. etc. except for the efforts of the selfless, pure-hearted, peace/love/sunshine liberals.

I'm a rock-ribbed conservative, but if I was faced with the prospect of drinking nasty water, you can bet I'd get the problem solved, too.

Exactly . . . the parks system and pretty much modern conservation was started under Teddy Roosevelt, not your garden variety liberal at at all.

Add to the fact that the organization that oversees so many of things described above like clean water was created by Richard Nixon, who definitely wasn't a liberal either (I'm talking about the EPA of course).

As I stated earlier, most of these measures required bi-partisan support and efforts but my point is that they were not the result of the free market forces.

The more I think about UHC or Single Payer Plans vs. our current system, the more convinced I am that our system is broken and that true free market forces are not likely to result in a system that allows every citizen to be able to afford health insurance and that leads us back to the problem where the poor go to the ER and receive the most expensive health care out there while leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab. We need to come up with a solution that will resolve that issue so people have alternatives to that.

I agree that Reagan was the last conservative President we've had and it may be a while until we see another one.

[Wino you know]

Interesting topic. 7 pages into what can be considered a political issue, and it hasn't turned nasty yet (knock on wood).

I think we're mostly at the consensus that something needs to be done, whether it be something as simple as eliminating drug ads to all-out UHS.

And just for the record, the communism that Marx saw when he wrote his Manifesto in the mid-1800s (1848?) was definitely not the same communism that developed under Lenin or Stalin or Mao or Castro or any of the other communist leaders of the 20th century. 20th century communist leaders ruled their country in an authoritarian dictatorship under the disguise of communism because in a dictatorship, the government tends to own a lot of things. My knowledge of 19th century European History might be a little fuzzy, but I don't think Karl Marx ever envisioned communism becoming another form of authoritarianism.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm quite happy living in a represenative republic, thank you.
As I said before, if anyone feels the desire to emigrate to a communist or socialist nation, I'll be more than happy to help them get there.

A representative republic is good when true to itself . . . When being bought and stroked by lobbyists and/or corporations the representation tends to become askewed.

This naturally is occuring in both parties.

It IS happening in both parties, that's why I get so friggin' mad when voters (of EITHER party) go into the voting booth with a closed mind like the sheep most of them are and pull the lever for candidate _________________(fill in the blank) just because he/she has a "D" or an "R" after his/her name.
Listen to what the vast majority of these pig-heads are saying-"Yes, all politician are corrupt, except for MY represenative."
If I had a dollar for every time I heard that, Jimmy Buffett would be working for ME.

[Elrod]

Elrod it would seem your quote/sig is the resounding opinion by the naysayers of the idea . . . Any input?

Short answer: I am not in favor of socialized medicine.


I would prefer to see more healthcare dollars (regardless of the source) go to patient care providers and less to administrators. I can't begin to count the number of administrative personnel that I have encountered that have ZERO patient care experience. Zilch.

Healthcare decisions should be put back in the hands of patients and their physicians. I shouldn't have to explain to a junior claims assistant why I chose to go the emergency room when I had chest pains instead of making an appointment, nor should the hospital have to wait for payment. After 9 years on the street as an EMT and Paramedic and several years of teaching, I feel qualified to decide where to seek treatment.

I don't remember the name of hospital administrator on duty or the name of the junior claims assistant, but I damn sure remember the name of the doctor that made the diagnosis and initiated the treatment that saved my life. Thanks Mike!

If the healthcare system reduced the number of employees on the payroll that do not provide patient care, the cost of care would go down. If healthcare costs less, insurance should also cost less and be easier to obtain.


Most (if not all) senators and representatives have to employ staffers that do nothing but assist constituents in dealing with federal government agencies. The senators and representatives have created and administered agencies that in many cases are unresponsive to the taxpayers unless they go through the congressman's office. I don't have much faith in their ability to create a healthcare system that will serve my fellow countrymen.

[ConchRepublican]

Sooooo . . . have we solved this?

[jonesbeach10]

Sooooo . . . have we solved this?

If we solved it, we probably wouldn't be typing on a Jimmy Buffett fansite.

Better question: Can we nominate this as a late thread of the year candidate for being a political thread that didn't turn nasty and stayed civil without the prodding of mods?

[flyboy55]

Sooooo . . . have we solved this?

If we solved it, we probably wouldn't be typing on a Jimmy Buffett fansite.

Better question: Can we nominate this as a late thread of the year candidate for being a political thread that didn't turn nasty and stayed civil without the prodding of mods?

I think that's because most of the thread consists of Republicans/conservatives vigorously agreeing with each other.

But all in all pretty tame so far.

[krusin1]

Sooooo . . . have we solved this?

If we solved it, we probably wouldn't be typing on a Jimmy Buffett fansite.

Better question: Can we nominate this as a late thread of the year candidate for being a political thread that didn't turn nasty and stayed civil without the prodding of mods?

I think that's because most of the thread consists of Republicans/conservatives vigorously agreeing with each other.

But all in all pretty tame so far.

Amazing how many of us there are.

[ConchRepublican]

Sooooo . . . have we solved this?

If we solved it, we probably wouldn't be typing on a Jimmy Buffett fansite.

Better question: Can we nominate this as a late thread of the year candidate for being a political thread that didn't turn nasty and stayed civil without the prodding of mods?

I think that's because most of the thread consists of Republicans/conservatives vigorously agreeing with each other.

Or . . . that a good arguement could not be made FOR government supervised UHC . . .

[jonesbeach10]

Sooooo . . . have we solved this?

If we solved it, we probably wouldn't be typing on a Jimmy Buffett fansite.

Better question: Can we nominate this as a late thread of the year candidate for being a political thread that didn't turn nasty and stayed civil without the prodding of mods?

I think that's because most of the thread consists of Republicans/conservatives vigorously agreeing with each other.

Or . . . that a good arguement could not be made FOR government supervised UHC . . .

I think there were many good arguments made, but I think at the end of the day, many people don't want the hassle of another government bureaucracy when the government has lacked efficiency with other agencies designed to directly help the people (Medicare, Medicaid, SS, etc.)

[mjeischen]

I consider myself leaning more Dem than Rep and I always have.

I feel it was a good thread that never got nasty because regardless of what each of us felt it is agreed the system is terribly broken. If this situation were to be addressed and corrected alot of ideals from both sides of the fence will need to make it happen.

There will most certainly not be a clear and decisive solution and I think it will require a little bit of everything we've talked about.

Its an issue that doesn't rest solely with either party . . . everyone has to look at it.

I still want to lean towards it being good only because of what our Canuck and Aussie friends shared. But thats me and my wishful thinking that my own country isn't out to bend me over and run a gang bang on me and my pocketbook.

[mjeischen]

Most importantly, Merry Christmas and thanks for sharing on this. All we can do is hope for something better in the coming years.

[AdamBomb8]

Given that I can't afford health care I would like to see it, but thinking that the government is capable of managing it is laughable. So I'll do without and hope for the best. Can't get on my wife's health care, they want over 450 a month for that, no way I can do that. Thats easily 2/3 of one of my paychecks, and I get paid bi-weekly. Its unfortunate that affordable health care in this country has become like driving, a privilege.