Hell if I know anything but its simply frustrating to know that people can't get or afford the care they need.
WHY!? We are THE world power but we are 7 different ways of f'd up in our social and government make up.
My tax dollars pay for kids other people shouldn't have but certain things I may want or need can't get covered? It's not right.
Someone elses Drug Rehab is covered by the government but the drugs I may need are not!? It's not right.
We've become pussified and maybe where I was thinking Universal Healthcare is the way to go we just enable more people in society to do even less because damn it they'll get their care and not do a damn thing to earn it.
Damn it . . .
The Parrot Dice Lounge kinda like a mirage. Here today and gone tomorrow. You should stop by and say hello when visiting Chicago on tour.
the basic problem with any medical coverage concept is there are a several fundamental issues society needs to address before any plan will work...
1) according to medicare approximately 5% of medicare patients consume 50% of medicare dollars. almost all of these dollars go to extend the final 6 months of life.
when should society say stop treatment and hence financial expenditures on a patient?
Should grandma be entitled to $100,000 worth of cancer treatments so she can have 1 more Xmas with the grandkids even though she be dead by valentines day with the treatment?
what about my next door neighbor's premie twin babies that received over 1 million dollars worth of care before they left the hospital?
2) we already have universal healthcare it's just a horribly in-efficient system. Approximately 40 million persons don't pay into the system but are entitled to treatment if they walk into a hospital sick. so 60% of the population is paying for 100% of the treatment expenses incurred.
if you don't pay into the system should you be denied all free care?
3) how many times have you heard or asked yourself, I want everything done possible to save me or person X?
well "everything" costs a hell of alot of money.
unless society willing to answer these questions, there will be no answer to how the best way to pay for it....
I'd feel bad for you, but I have no soul.....
If you can't do it with brains, you won't do it with hours - Kelly Johnson
drunkpirate66 wrote:
1. People can join the United States Military and have medical for themselves and their families forever . . . alot of countries with "free" (and there is no such thing) or universal health care have mandatory military service . . . sign up! Your country needs you.
2. Or you could move.
3. Get a part time job
4. Live healthier . . . hey! If people worked out more, ate better, drank less, didn't smoke like an idiot (yes, I believe all smokers are idiots) then you wouldn't need health care as much . . . I haven't been to the doctor in literally 8 years . . .
Thanks, you just solved all of my problems.
Off to see the recruiter....back in a bit.
why not? millions of people do it and have done it . . . why not?
because I'm almost 50 f'ing years old......it's not always an option.
Have I told you lately that I love you?
no, but I've been waiting patiently.......
I love you too!!!!
even though your old........er than me...
mjeischen wrote: If we had a better administration Rep or Dem (non-issue) would we feel easier about the change? I mean I can't sit here and say I trust our current admin and what their motives may or may not be.
No. The only government agency that gets their job done well is the U.S. Military. Their charge is to kill bad people and break their things - and they are wicked-good at accomplishing those aims.
That being said... in terms of an organization.. the military is STILL horribly inefficient
How long have they been chasing a little bearded man in the mountains for?
BUT He is one bearded man amongst many in alot of mountains . . .
The Parrot Dice Lounge kinda like a mirage. Here today and gone tomorrow. You should stop by and say hello when visiting Chicago on tour.
krusin1 wrote:
In a for-profit situation, though, results are valued. In the words of Captain Ron, "You do your job good, you get a better job."
The general consensus is the government sucks but if your fear is no motivation to those involved why not provide it or build it into the program?
Cardiac Care banks this dollar amount. You get an increase based on years of service, furthered education, positive feedback/reviews and so on.
Brain surgeons would warrant more perhaps and then have the same evaluation tiers beneath it.
Trust me, I've made that argument. When you're dealing with entrenched government bureaucrats, though, that kind of thing makes them feel real threatened, real fast. Plus, they trot out the "fairness" argument - it's not fair that somebody doing the same work gets paid more (even though they do it better.)
Plus, I've found that that most government jobs pay less than their private-business counterparts. Thus, a lot of bureaucrat posts are filled with people who got fired in private industry... not exactly your best and brightest, and they start out paranoid about anyone who wants to hold them accountable (and maybe put their job at risk... again.)
"How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?" ~ Satchel Paige
We pay a extra tax levy if you earn over a particular amount each year - 1.8 percent I think ..
If you choose to not have additional private insurance and if you are single and get over 55k or family and get over 100k (not sure on that amount) you get to pay a little extra cause you have a higher income.
So I have both. I pay 12.50 for my private health insurance.
If I want something done, I get it done straight away - no questions asked - elective or emergency. If it is elective, i have some small out of pocket expenses.
If there is an emergency or serious illness - you go in as a "public patient" under medicare and dont pay a cent - and there is no waiting.
I can go to my doctor - and I dont pay a cent additional.
We also have most prescriptions subsidised by medicare, so the most expensive is around 30.00.
Overall - having been to hospital in the USA - our costs are a lot lower.
I like it - but then - maybe it is not for everyone.
You dont have to have private insurance here if you cannot afford it - the incentive is there for the higher income earners to have it - so that the govt health care is for the lower income earners.
We pay a extra tax levy if you earn over a particular amount each year - 1.8 percent I think ..
If you choose to not have additional private insurance and if you are single and get over 55k or family and get over 100k (not sure on that amount) you get to pay a little extra cause you have a higher income.
So I have both. I pay 12.50 for my private health insurance.
If I want something done, I get it done straight away - no questions asked - elective or emergency. If it is elective, i have some small out of pocket expenses.
If there is an emergency or serious illness - you go in as a "public patient" under medicare and dont pay a cent - and there is no waiting.
I can go to my doctor - and I dont pay a cent additional.
We also have most prescriptions subsidised by medicare, so the most expensive is around 30.00.
Overall - having been to hospital in the USA - our costs are a lot lower.
I like it - but then - maybe it is not for everyone.
You dont have to have private insurance here if you cannot afford it - the incentive is there for the higher income earners to have it - so that the govt health care is for the lower income earners.
Thanks a boatload for your input.
Having spent some time here . . . is your government more screwed up than ours? Has it always been this way for you or is this something your government started within a time you can remember not having universal healthcare available.
Australia right?
The Parrot Dice Lounge kinda like a mirage. Here today and gone tomorrow. You should stop by and say hello when visiting Chicago on tour.
drunkpirate66 wrote:
4. Live healthier . . . hey! If people worked out more, ate better, drank less, didn't smoke like an idiot (yes, I believe all smokers are idiots) then you wouldn't need health care as much . . . I haven't been to the doctor in literally 8 years . . .
It's very expensive to truly "live healthier." Processed foods are cheaper than whole foods like fresh fruits, veggies, and meats. When we stopped buying processed food and only bought fresh stuff, our grocery bill tripled. To feed 4 people, I spend almost what we make for our house payment in food. It's wayyyyy cheaper to buy a big economy bag of spaghetti, cereal, etc. to feed the family than it is to only eat unprocessed stuff. It seriously makes me consider planting a garden so I don't have to buy as much food!
All that crap you see on boxes now like "made with whole grains" it's all crap food. Even bread. It's all bad bad bad bad bad. (And I seriously read the label of every single food I buy). The stuff in our food is crap.
don't know what to tell you . . . I eat alot of seafood . . . drink a ton of water . . . I don't use multi vitamins which are either bad for you or don't do anything benefitial . . . don't smoke . . . don't drink as much as my buffettnews name would lead you to believe . . . eat alot of fruit (apples and banana's are wicked cheap) and stay away from salt and sugar.
haven't been sick in years. just saying . . . perhaps those are the reasons perhaps they aren't.
you are an idol of healthy perfection. we should all bow to your way of life. (btw, do you have any idea the price of seafood in colorado??? )
you kinda sound like a pompous retard tho.
but not a smoker . . . and not going to pay for smokers health bills . . . directly or indirectly anymore than I am already forced to do . . .
bottom . .. Universal Health Care is simply a bad idea . . .
and calling people names is just f'n sexy . . . keep it up. please!
oh i agree it isn't a good idea as well.
if you have private insurance through your employer you DO pay for smokers health bills. the premium you pay through your company is equal among employees---whether they smoke, have cancer, or run marathons.
if i knew if your family had a strong history of cancer, could i have the same right to refuse to pay your insurance/medical bills because the chance of you getting cancer was increased by that much?
the point is, is health care, whether government sponsored or privately sponsored is far more complicated than just "trying to be healthy." not seeing a doctor for how ever many years is not exactly healthy either. in fact, quite to the contrary. having a good relationship with your primary health care provider and having regular checkups is very, very important. should i have to pay for your chemo if you neglected to have annual winkie exams done and showed up at the doctor one day with stage 4 prostate cancer?
We pay a extra tax levy if you earn over a particular amount each year - 1.8 percent I think ..
If you choose to not have additional private insurance and if you are single and get over 55k or family and get over 100k (not sure on that amount) you get to pay a little extra cause you have a higher income.
So I have both. I pay 12.50 for my private health insurance.
If I want something done, I get it done straight away - no questions asked - elective or emergency. If it is elective, i have some small out of pocket expenses.
If there is an emergency or serious illness - you go in as a "public patient" under medicare and dont pay a cent - and there is no waiting.
I can go to my doctor - and I dont pay a cent additional.
We also have most prescriptions subsidised by medicare, so the most expensive is around 30.00.
Overall - having been to hospital in the USA - our costs are a lot lower.
I like it - but then - maybe it is not for everyone.
You dont have to have private insurance here if you cannot afford it - the incentive is there for the higher income earners to have it - so that the govt health care is for the lower income earners.
Thanks a boatload for your input.
Having spent some time here . . . is your government more screwed up than ours? Has it always been this way for you or is this something your government started within a time you can remember not having universal healthcare available.
Australia right?
Yes Australia. We have not always had it - been that way for 20 years or so. It is not perfect - there are some waiting lists for low income people for elective surgery - but basically anyone in the country if they get suddenly ill or injured - gets totally free care - no matter how long it is needed for.
And all governments are screwed up one way or the other
And to add to the "healthy" debate. As a manager of staff - and one who does not eat healthy or work out (ie me) - I have less time off sick than the healthy ones
creeky wrote:
Yes Australia. We have not always had it - been that way for 20 years or so. It is not perfect - there are some waiting lists for low income people for elective surgery - but basically anyone in the country if they get suddenly ill or injured - gets totally free care - no matter how long it is needed for.
And all governments are screwed up one way or the other
So a perfectly dysfunctional government like our own in America could essentially pull this off if it is administered correctly.
The only people who have to wait or delay on healthcare are people seeking "elective" surgeries - meaning treating non-life threatenting ailments or breast enlargement?
The Parrot Dice Lounge kinda like a mirage. Here today and gone tomorrow. You should stop by and say hello when visiting Chicago on tour.
AlbatrossFlyer wrote:the basic problem with any medical coverage concept is there are a several fundamental issues society needs to address before any plan will work...
1) according to medicare approximately 5% of medicare patients consume 50% of medicare dollars. almost all of these dollars go to extend the final 6 months of life.
when should society say stop treatment and hence financial expenditures on a patient?
Should grandma be entitled to $100,000 worth of cancer treatments so she can have 1 more Xmas with the grandkids even though she be dead by valentines day with the treatment?
what about my next door neighbor's premie twin babies that received over 1 million dollars worth of care before they left the hospital?
2) we already have universal healthcare it's just a horribly in-efficient system. Approximately 40 million persons don't pay into the system but are entitled to treatment if they walk into a hospital sick. so 60% of the population is paying for 100% of the treatment expenses incurred.
if you don't pay into the system should you be denied all free care?
3) how many times have you heard or asked yourself, I want everything done possible to save me or person X?
well "everything" costs a hell of alot of money.
unless society willing to answer these questions, there will be no answer to how the best way to pay for it....
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!!
Having had to participate in those kinds of choices for my parents.....and although the decision we came to was not based on finances, it did end up INFINITELY cheaper to go on a wonderful hospice program and I wouldn't have changed that for anything in the world.
We DO need to go back to a simpler attitude about medicine.....just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
Paige in Utah
"Don't try to shake it, just nod your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on"
krusin1 wrote:
In a for-profit situation, though, results are valued. In the words of Captain Ron, "You do your job good, you get a better job."
The general consensus is the government sucks but if your fear is no motivation to those involved why not provide it or build it into the program?
Cardiac Care banks this dollar amount. You get an increase based on years of service, furthered education, positive feedback/reviews and so on.
Brain surgeons would warrant more perhaps and then have the same evaluation tiers beneath it.
Why should years of service be any measure of pay increase? That is one of the main problems. A person can sit there, do the minimum and get a raise. And yet, every government, and dare I say union contract has a years in service portion of the raise calculation. I want the young brilliant doctor working on me rather than the one who has been in his post for 20 years because he is paid by the government, hasn't killed anyone, and does his base level work so they can't fire him.
Add me to the side leaning against universal health care.
What I don't think has been mentioned is that over the next 20 years we're going to have 78 million baby boomers become eligible for social security. We're already in a big deficit, adding to a huge debt (hence a diminishing dollar). And it's only going to get bigger as the baby boomers start drawing from social security and medicare.
So for that reason, I'm against adding yet another government entitlement program that would cause problems for the country down the road, even if it did run somewhat efficiently.
Sometimes more than others,
we see who and what and where we are,
I'm just a one man band,
With my feet in the sand,
Tonight I just need my guitar
I would be willing to guess that most of you have adequate health care. But as Paige said, more and more people are becoming under insured or have no health care insurance. In dealing with the HCV community on a daily basis I am constantly running into people that are faced with the problem of how are they going to pay for their care and medicines.
As it's been said - the VA Hospital system tends to make someone really afraid of Universal Health Care, however the VA has been going thru issues for years and our government has been aware of it and has chosen to not do a damn thing about it. Non veterens quickly forget what our brave men and women went through and don't pressure their respective representatives for a change.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that US is one of only 2 countries that allow prescription drug ads on television. The other being New Zealand. Who in the hell do you think pays for those ads? We do - the consumers!!
More people are leaving the US for treatment of their illnesses elsewhere - same procedures, same medicines but the cost is so much less out of country. Some insurance companies are even paying for their insured to go out of country as a cost reducing measure. I can give an example using the HCV treatment. I know someone who went to Costa Rica for their treatment because of the high costs here in the US. In the US the meds alone run appx $ 2,000. a month with the SHORTEST time on treatment being 6 months. The majority of people here in the US do a 48-72 week treatment. That cost doesn't cover the necessary monthly blood work, doctors visits, liver biopsies and meds to counter the sides from treatment. The person I kow that went to Costa Rica is paying appx $ 800 a month for the whole kit and caboodle - doctors care, lab work and meds.
ELIMINATE TELEVISION ADVERTISING FOR PRESCRIPTION MEDS!!!
stepping off soapbox now
Well...(said in my best Bubba voice) I've been on sabbatical.
krusin1 wrote:
In a for-profit situation, though, results are valued. In the words of Captain Ron, "You do your job good, you get a better job."
The general consensus is the government sucks but if your fear is no motivation to those involved why not provide it or build it into the program?
Cardiac Care banks this dollar amount. You get an increase based on years of service, furthered education, positive feedback/reviews and so on.
Brain surgeons would warrant more perhaps and then have the same evaluation tiers beneath it.
Why should years of service be any measure of pay increase? That is one of the main problems. A person can sit there, do the minimum and get a raise. And yet, every government, and dare I say union contract has a years in service portion of the raise calculation. I want the young brilliant doctor working on me rather than the one who has been in his post for 20 years because he is paid by the government, hasn't killed anyone, and does his base level work so they can't fire him.
I never said years of service alone warrants a pay increase. There has to be accountability. "Getting by" is not an option. I understand how the union and governments work in this regard. I deal with it quite a bit in my work.
The Parrot Dice Lounge kinda like a mirage. Here today and gone tomorrow. You should stop by and say hello when visiting Chicago on tour.
creeky wrote:
Yes Australia. We have not always had it - been that way for 20 years or so. It is not perfect - there are some waiting lists for low income people for elective surgery - but basically anyone in the country if they get suddenly ill or injured - gets totally free care - no matter how long it is needed for.
And all governments are screwed up one way or the other
So a perfectly dysfunctional government like our own in America could essentially pull this off if it is administered correctly.
The only people who have to wait or delay on healthcare are people seeking "elective" surgeries - meaning treating non-life threatenting ailments or breast enlargement?
I would like to see something done in the current system. As someone who has had a lot of medical care this year, the $$$ are astronomical, I can't imagine how anyone could afford it if they didn't have health care. I have heard from some of my Canadian friends, and they say what Creeky says. It works for them, most of them still pay a small premium for private health care to get elective stuff done. Many citizens from the US e go to Canada to get their drugs, because they are cheaper, way cheaper then they are in the US.
Just think the "cost" issue needs to get under control. Maybe that is why the UHC issue is really coming to the top of the political charts this year.
I voted leaning towards a good idea, but we really need to get the facts. It is a crucial issue and thanks for bringing it up.
I appreciate all of the information from the people who work in the field on this thread
mjeischen wrote:Whats not to love about not needing to worry about insurance coverage?
unfortunately... that is what is grabbing everyone's attention...
mostly the people that can't afford the insurance....
it's sad, because those that see that think all their worries will go away, and someone will be taking care of that for them.....
I would love to see where there was insurance available to everyone, but not in this way!!!!!!
Unfortunately that's a HUGE percentage of people!
We are BEYOND fortunate because my hubby works for local gov't....if I had to pay for the insurance that my employer offers (which BLOWS)....I wouldn't even get a paycheck.
1. People can join the United States Military and have medical for themselves and their families forever . . . alot of countries with "free" (and there is no such thing) or universal health care have mandatory military service . . . sign up! Your country needs you.
2. Or you could move.
3. Get a part time job
4. Live healthier . . . hey! If people worked out more, ate better, drank less, didn't smoke like an idiot (yes, I believe all smokers are idiots) then you wouldn't need health care as much . . . I haven't been to the doctor in literally 8 years . . .
1. some people can't join the military because of their health or age
2. Why should anyone have to move from their home to get medical care - get a grip
3. part time jobs DO NOT usually provide employer assisted health care - that's why more and more companies are making more positions part time - to eliminate their cost for employees health care
4. poor people can't afford to live healthier - you haven't been to a doctor in 8 years - WELL GOOD FOR YOU. I hope like hell you don't come down with some disease that will require your to be immersed in the healthcare system
Well...(said in my best Bubba voice) I've been on sabbatical.
creeky wrote:
Yes Australia. We have not always had it - been that way for 20 years or so. It is not perfect - there are some waiting lists for low income people for elective surgery - but basically anyone in the country if they get suddenly ill or injured - gets totally free care - no matter how long it is needed for.
And all governments are screwed up one way or the other
So a perfectly dysfunctional government like our own in America could essentially pull this off if it is administered correctly.
The only people who have to wait or delay on healthcare are people seeking "elective" surgeries - meaning treating non-life threatenting ailments or breast enlargement?
I would like to see something done in the current system. As someone who has had a lot of medical care this year, the $$$ are astronomical, I can't imagine how anyone could afford it if they didn't have health care. I have heard from some of my Canadian friends, and they say what Creeky says. It works for them, most of them still pay a small premium for private health care to get elective stuff done. Many citizens from the US e go to Canada to get their drugs, because they are cheaper, way cheaper then they are in the US.
Just think the "cost" issue needs to get under control. Maybe that is why the UHC issue is really coming to the top of the political charts this year.
I voted leaning towards a good idea, but we really need to get the facts. It is a crucial issue and thanks for bringing it up.
I appreciate all of the information from the people who work in the field on this thread
I too know people in Canada that are very pleased with the care they obtain. Recently I was exposed to a email that basically blasted Canada's healthcare. It told the story of a "friend of a friend" who had to wait months for cancer surgery. I checked with my friends and neither have faced that problem and in the past 5 years one has faced HCV, COPD, RA and cancer.
Well...(said in my best Bubba voice) I've been on sabbatical.
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