Universal Healthcare . . .

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What are your feelings on Universal Healthcare

REALLY Bad Idea
28
50%
REALLY Good Idea
10
18%
I'm on the fence leaning towards its a good idea
12
21%
I'm on the fence leaning towards it won't work
6
11%
 
Total votes: 56

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Post by ph4ever »

ConchRepublican wrote:
mjeischen wrote: mostly the people that can't afford the insurance....
I don't believe that. Flat screen plasma and LCD TVs are flying off the shelves. Everybody has an iPod or blackberry or something. How many game playing consoles are out there and what are their costs?

Priorities are screwed up. People would rather pay for entertainment and let the government be their mommy and daddy and take care of the really important stuff.
you are totally out of touch with reality - when was the last time you visited someone that was living below the poverty level, or a single mother trying to raise kids? Ever talked to an elderly person on a fixed income trying to pay their rent and get meds?

Sweetie - not everyone has a iPod, Blackberry or game console. They can't afford to pay for their meds - why waste money on that.
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Post by drunkpirate66 »

pbans wrote:
drunkpirate66 wrote:
pbans wrote:
drunkpirate66 wrote:
pbans wrote:
STL PARROTHEAD wrote:

unfortunately... that is what is grabbing everyone's attention...

mostly the people that can't afford the insurance....
it's sad, because those that see that think all their worries will go away, and someone will be taking care of that for them.....

I would love to see where there was insurance available to everyone, but not in this way!!!!!!
Unfortunately that's a HUGE percentage of people!
We are BEYOND fortunate because my hubby works for local gov't....if I had to pay for the insurance that my employer offers (which BLOWS)....I wouldn't even get a paycheck.
1. People can join the United States Military and have medical for themselves and their families forever . . . alot of countries with "free" (and there is no such thing) or universal health care have mandatory military service . . . sign up! Your country needs you.

2. Or you could move.

3. Get a part time job

4. Live healthier . . . hey! If people worked out more, ate better, drank less, didn't smoke like an idiot (yes, I believe all smokers are idiots) then you wouldn't need health care as much . . . I haven't been to the doctor in literally 8 years . . .
Thanks, you just solved all of my problems.
Off to see the recruiter....back in a bit.
why not? millions of people do it and have done it . . . why not?
because I'm almost 50 f'ing years old......it's not always an option.
it is for future generations . . . a great option.

there are also part civil service jobs that offer excellent health care options . . . for those who want to work for their benefits. I realize that not everyone does . . .
the hit and run is as good as any religion around this time of year . . .
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Post by The Lost Manatee »

ConchRepublican wrote:I feel it is absolutely, positively, a bad idea.

It sounds good, and it means well, but it just won't work. I mean, I don't want to go on a rant here, but I just don't understand how people can live in this fantasyland and not be able to tell the difference between "how I'd like things to be" and "how things are". Everything the government touches gets red taped to death. Would you like to deal with the DMV while you have a ruptured appendix?

Why are people in England pulling out their own teeth instead of seeing a dentist??

Why do people come from all over the world and from universal healthcare societies, to see our doctors????

Free market is always the best way to go. The way to get the best and the brightest is through competition. I don't want a civil servant operating on me, I want a top doctor I chose and researched.

The best way to cleanup what we have is to cap lawsuit payouts. I think it is ridiculous we have people who feel they can ask for, and juries will award multi-million dollar payouts for misdiagnosis or other medical mistakes. Should there be something? Of course. Instant millionaire? C'mon, that's ridiculous.

I'm normally against capping anything, but is seems people don't grasp that insurance companies don't print money, and that when they hand out these awards that the insurance companies just increase rates making everything more expensive.

Reduce malpractive insurance and there will be more nurses in hospitals, which will then give better care. There will be more doctors not taking in their shingles because they can afford to do the work. There will be more doctors, and good ones donating their time to charity work or clinics because they will not have to process paying patients to cover their costs.

There will be more good doctors overall because it will be seen again as a rewarding humanitarian profession that will again be monetarilly profitable. Hey, help people and make money, not bad!

My $0.02
You raise some very good points however tort reform alone will not fix the problem, it will further enhance the profits of the health insurance companies with no guarantee that people will receive any benefit, such as lower premiums or better care or that they will be able to afford any care. In no way, shape or form does tort reform alone insure that there will be more nurses, doctors or clinics, it just insures that judgments are based more in reality then fantasy. I agree completely that companies just pass these costs along to the consumer, just like corporations pass along any corporate taxes that they are charged.

I do find it interesting that you put forth the question about why all these foreigners come here for medical treatment and I have to ask, then why is Blue Cross of NY sending patients to India for heart surgery?

I have no objection to free market forces being put to work provided that it achieves decent health care at affordable rates. Currently it doesn't seem to be doing a good job of that.
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Post by ConchRepublican »

AlbatrossFlyer wrote:here's my universal health plan. i'd be interested to hear any constructive feedback. it's actually quite simple and relies heavily on the free market and existing industries to implement it minimizes the government involvement.

1) the day you are born, the US government purchases a 10,000,000 dollar health care account policy for you from the private sector insurance industry. these policies would be competitively bid each year and bought in bulk to ensure the lowest cost to the government.

Plan goes out the window right there. How can you be so prejudiced as to not include immigrants????

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Post by drunkpirate66 »

ConchRepublican wrote:
AlbatrossFlyer wrote:here's my universal health plan. i'd be interested to hear any constructive feedback. it's actually quite simple and relies heavily on the free market and existing industries to implement it minimizes the government involvement.

1) the day you are born, the US government purchases a 10,000,000 dollar health care account policy for you from the private sector insurance industry. these policies would be competitively bid each year and bought in bulk to ensure the lowest cost to the government.

Plan goes out the window right there. How can you be so prejudiced as to not include immigrants????

It will be said . . .
then the day the immigrant LEGALLY becomes a citizen . . . although I do disagree with the premise . . . leave health care the way it is.
the hit and run is as good as any religion around this time of year . . .
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Post by ConchRepublican »

ph4ever wrote:
ConchRepublican wrote:
mjeischen wrote: mostly the people that can't afford the insurance....
I don't believe that. Flat screen plasma and LCD TVs are flying off the shelves. Everybody has an iPod or blackberry or something. How many game playing consoles are out there and what are their costs?

Priorities are screwed up. People would rather pay for entertainment and let the government be their mommy and daddy and take care of the really important stuff.
you are totally out of touch with reality - when was the last time you visited someone that was living below the poverty level, or a single mother trying to raise kids? Ever talked to an elderly person on a fixed income trying to pay their rent and get meds?

Sweetie - not everyone has a iPod, Blackberry or game console. They can't afford to pay for their meds - why waste money on that.
I read that as "most people", not mostly people. Of course there are a lot of people who can not afford insurance, there are single moms and elderly who are in a difficult spot. There are safety nets, for the most part for them.

My comment was meant for the many people who do not prioritize correctly. We do know there are many out there who feel entitled to things just because they are out there.
"I'm just tryin' to get by being quiet and shy,
In a world full of pushin' and shovin'"


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Post by 12vmanRick »

IT'S A HORRIBLE SOCIALIST IDEA!

Healthcare is insurance is screwed up bad enough right now and that won't fix it.

The only people that want this are the same lot that want everything else handed to them instead of actually working for a living.

We need LESS government in our lives not more
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Post by pbans »

drunkpirate66 wrote:
pbans wrote:
drunkpirate66 wrote:
pbans wrote:
drunkpirate66 wrote:
pbans wrote: Unfortunately that's a HUGE percentage of people!
We are BEYOND fortunate because my hubby works for local gov't....if I had to pay for the insurance that my employer offers (which BLOWS)....I wouldn't even get a paycheck.
1. People can join the United States Military and have medical for themselves and their families forever . . . alot of countries with "free" (and there is no such thing) or universal health care have mandatory military service . . . sign up! Your country needs you.

2. Or you could move.

3. Get a part time job

4. Live healthier . . . hey! If people worked out more, ate better, drank less, didn't smoke like an idiot (yes, I believe all smokers are idiots) then you wouldn't need health care as much . . . I haven't been to the doctor in literally 8 years . . .
Thanks, you just solved all of my problems.
Off to see the recruiter....back in a bit.
why not? millions of people do it and have done it . . . why not?
because I'm almost 50 f'ing years old......it's not always an option.
it is for future generations . . . a great option.

there are also part civil service jobs that offer excellent health care options . . . for those who want to work for their benefits. I realize that not everyone does . . .
I worked for my benefits for 23 years....when I retired, those benefits ended. My point is not everyone who is uninsured or underinsured is in that position because they made bad life choices or are lazy.............
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Post by mjeischen »

ConchRepublican wrote:
mjeischen wrote: mostly the people that can't afford the insurance....
I don't believe that. Flat screen plasma and LCD TVs are flying off the shelves. Everybody has an iPod or blackberry or something. How many game playing consoles are out there and what are their costs?

Priorities are screwed up. People would rather pay for entertainment and let the government be their mommy and daddy and take care of the really important stuff.
Another fine example of where individual accountability needs to be evident but it's not.
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Post by krusin1 »

12vmanRick wrote:
We need LESS government in our lives not more
Exactly right.

"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." ~ Ronald Reagan

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would steal them away." ~ Ronald Reagan

"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!" ~ Ronald Reagan

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Post by STL PARROTHEAD »

krusin1 wrote:
12vmanRick wrote:
We need LESS government in our lives not more
Exactly right.

"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help." ~ Ronald Reagan

"The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would steal them away." ~ Ronald Reagan

"No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!" ~ Ronald Reagan

(I really miss Mr. Reagan. :cry:)
AGREED....

I was always taught... and now that I'm a big girl know.......

Government is like a bad house guest.
If they knock on your door... don't answer, they never leave!!
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Post by Caribbean Soul Man »

1. They don't do anything well except butt into the lives of free and law abiding citizens

2. Think about it, if you owned a business and had an employee that couldn't do ANYTHING well, would you turn over the future welfare of your family to that employee? OF COURSE NOT

3. What is one of the most important aspects of your life that if mis-handled, can shorten or eliminate your life or the lives of loved ones? YOUR HEALTHCARE

4. We absolutely cannot surrender something as individually sacred as our healthcare to the government to be used for election year threats and bargaining chips the way social security is today. Think about it, our healthcare needs to be grounded in something that we have much more faith in than crummy politicians that bend and flow with whatever direction the "current" political winds are blowing.

For those out there that disagree passionately with President Bush and his politics, I'm sure you wouldn't want him or his appointees to be in a position of control of your healthcare. Well, the other half of us are just as terrified that Hilliary will screw it up even worse than she tried to the first time :o - so you can see, perceptions are bad no matter what side of the fence you line up on.

But she has absolutely hung her hat on this issue. And Obama has actually indicated that he will cram a universal healthcare program down our throats come hell or high water (which means whether it is a good one or not, he'll deliver it within 6 months of being elected). In fact, he said if congress didn't pass a healthcare program in the first 6 months of his presidency, he would take their healthcare away - oh that's a brilliant way to get them to cooperate, threaten them... :roll: What makes us think they wouldn't hold it over our heads in the future to strong arm us into something the same way he is threatening congress now?

5. And given the impersonal way government agencies look at statistics to make decisions, how do you feel about a computer or worse (a disgruntled goverment worker) looking over your medical records and the medical records of your family in order to determine if you will be lucky enough to be granted one of the rationed heart by-pass surgeries this year because there are more people waiting for them than the government has resources to provide them. NOT!

And, oh by the way, what about the millions of people in this country who make their living in the healthcare industry as doctors, nurses, pharmaceutical employees, private hospitals or clinics, therapists, technicians, etc. etc. etc. What about them??? Would they suddenly be forced to join some gov healthcare worker's union and give up their ability to improve their personal situation based on their own merits, hard work and experience because now the government will be evaluating their salaries to assign what they believe to be "fair market value" for their services based on "average performance?" I assure you that many of our best and brightest didn't spend hundreds of thousands of $ to go to medical school only to get sucked into the nightmare of socialized medicine.

We simply haven't had any of these debates as a country and yet, a vote for Hilliary or Obama would automatically be taken by them as a mandate to force socialized medicine on us immediately.

NO THANKS - Hands off my family's healthcare!!! Go try to figure out how not to pay $500 for a hammer first!
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Post by BrianM »

ConchRepublican wrote:I feel it is absolutely, positively, a bad idea.
It sounds good, and it means well, but it just won't work. I mean, I don't want to go on a rant here, but I just don't understand how people can live in this fantasyland and not be able to tell the difference between "how I'd like things to be" and "how things are". Everything the government touches gets red taped to death. Would you like to deal with the DMV while you have a ruptured appendix?

Why are people in England pulling out their own teeth instead of seeing a dentist??

Why do people come from all over the world and from universal healthcare societies, to see our doctors????

Free market is always the best way to go. The way to get the best and the brightest is through competition. I don't want a civil servant operating on me, I want a top doctor I chose and researched.

The best way to cleanup what we have is to cap lawsuit payouts. I think it is ridiculous we have people who feel they can ask for, and juries will award multi-million dollar payouts for misdiagnosis or other medical mistakes. Should there be something? Of course. Instant millionaire? C'mon, that's ridiculous.
I'm normally against capping anything, but is seems people don't grasp that insurance companies don't print money, and that when they hand out these awards that the insurance companies just increase rates making everything more expensive.

Reduce malpractive insurance and there will be more nurses in hospitals, which will then give better care. There will be more doctors not taking in their shingles because they can afford to do the work. There will be more doctors, and good ones donating their time to charity work or clinics because they will not have to process paying patients to cover their costs.

There will be more good doctors overall because it will be seen again as a rewarding humanitarian profession that will again be monetarilly profitable. Hey, help people and make money, not bad!

My $0.02
So Free Market is always the best way to go?? Why not let the free market work in the courtroom also? If you want the Government to stay out of it, it has to go both ways or you are just picking and choosing when you want the Government to distort the market.
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Post by ph4ever »

ConchRepublican wrote:
ph4ever wrote:
ConchRepublican wrote:
mjeischen wrote: mostly the people that can't afford the insurance....
I don't believe that. Flat screen plasma and LCD TVs are flying off the shelves. Everybody has an iPod or blackberry or something. How many game playing consoles are out there and what are their costs?

Priorities are screwed up. People would rather pay for entertainment and let the government be their mommy and daddy and take care of the really important stuff.
you are totally out of touch with reality - when was the last time you visited someone that was living below the poverty level, or a single mother trying to raise kids? Ever talked to an elderly person on a fixed income trying to pay their rent and get meds?

Sweetie - not everyone has a iPod, Blackberry or game console. They can't afford to pay for their meds - why waste money on that.
I read that as "most people", not mostly people. Of course there are a lot of people who can not afford insurance, there are single moms and elderly who are in a difficult spot. There are safety nets, for the most part for them.

My comment was meant for the many people who do not prioritize correctly. We do know there are many out there who feel entitled to things just because they are out there.
I recently (withinthe past 4 months) read an article about the state of children's health care in Texas. There is a growing number of children of working parents in Texas that are uninsured. Their parents make above the maximum allowed for the CHIPS program. Employer insurance coverage for families is so high a person can't put a roof over their kids head or feed them if they elect this coverage. Now if it's happening in one state , chances are it's happening in 49 others too.

Yes there are quite a number of people that "work the system" - they are on public assistance, their parents on public assistance and their kids are on public assistance no doubt.

The simple fact is that the number of under/non insured working people has been on the rise for years. A person who works a 40+ hour a week job, having insurance and still having to pay $ 500 a month or more out of pocket expenses a month just isn't right.

Yes part of the health care cost is to cover the malpractice insurance and claims for physicians. And Yes there are tons of really frivolous malpractice lawsuits out there contributing to the issues as well. But the real problem with cost of health care is the fact the health care industry also has lobbyists lining Washington's pockets so things can stay the status quo. Another part of it is the whole CPT code system needing revised. Yeah it gets adjusted yearly but rarely to lower costs per procedure.

Doesn't it say something when the US is one of 2 countries worldwide that allow prescription drug advertising on television and we've got some of the highest costs cost for meds?
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Post by krusin1 »

BrianM wrote:
ConchRepublican wrote:I feel it is absolutely, positively, a bad idea.
It sounds good, and it means well, but it just won't work. I mean, I don't want to go on a rant here, but I just don't understand how people can live in this fantasyland and not be able to tell the difference between "how I'd like things to be" and "how things are". Everything the government touches gets red taped to death. Would you like to deal with the DMV while you have a ruptured appendix?

Why are people in England pulling out their own teeth instead of seeing a dentist??

Why do people come from all over the world and from universal healthcare societies, to see our doctors????

Free market is always the best way to go. The way to get the best and the brightest is through competition. I don't want a civil servant operating on me, I want a top doctor I chose and researched.

The best way to cleanup what we have is to cap lawsuit payouts. I think it is ridiculous we have people who feel they can ask for, and juries will award multi-million dollar payouts for misdiagnosis or other medical mistakes. Should there be something? Of course. Instant millionaire? C'mon, that's ridiculous.
I'm normally against capping anything, but is seems people don't grasp that insurance companies don't print money, and that when they hand out these awards that the insurance companies just increase rates making everything more expensive.

Reduce malpractive insurance and there will be more nurses in hospitals, which will then give better care. There will be more doctors not taking in their shingles because they can afford to do the work. There will be more doctors, and good ones donating their time to charity work or clinics because they will not have to process paying patients to cover their costs.

There will be more good doctors overall because it will be seen again as a rewarding humanitarian profession that will again be monetarilly profitable. Hey, help people and make money, not bad!

My $0.02
So Free Market is always the best way to go?? Why not let the free market work in the courtroom also? If you want the Government to stay out of it, it has to go both ways or you are just picking and choosing when you want the Government to distort the market.

Dude.... you're not seriously trying to tell us the courtroom is a market are you? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Post by LIPH »

Why wouldn't it be a market? Justice is bought and sold every day.
what I really mean . . . I wish you were here
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Post by 12vmanRick »

Government should only exist to protect basic human rights and freedoms. Some politicians believe otherwise, like that government is what made America great.

Remember the communist manifesto and the 10 things to make it to a Utopian Society?

. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

Take a look at how far along we already are toward this. If you don't think some are pushing right toward this, guess again.
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Post by krusin1 »

LIPH wrote:Why wouldn't it be a market? Justice is bought and sold every day.
Cynical much? :roll:


"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". - (Act IV, Scene II, Henry the VIII, Shakespeare.)


That'd go a long way towards solving our healthcare AND justice system problems... :-?
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Post by mjeischen »

12vmanRick wrote:Government should only exist to protect basic human rights and freedoms. Some politicians believe otherwise, like that government is what made America great.
Basic Human rights and Freedoms . . . You don't believe someone has the right to a healthy quality life in this country?

As it stands I'm not going to get s*** out of Social Security. I could use that money towards a Healthcare benefit and invest money myself for retirement like I basically already do.
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Post by 12vmanRick »

krusin1 wrote:
(I really miss Mr. Reagan. :cry:)
a real president!
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