Seriously, can we just ship Berkley to N. Korea?

[krusin1]

I guess my take is that the U.S. Military (including the Marines) is charged with protecting the entire, sovereign United States of America - even Berkeley.

To me, that means they can set up shop where they deem necessary and appropriate, so long as they don't run afoul of Constitutional prohibitions (search/seizure, etc.)

IMNSHO, the city of Berkeley has no authority to prohibit the Marines from coming to town.

And encouraging protests of the recruiters sounds like organized discrimination to me... suppose Berkeley has any kind of anti-discrimination statute?

They should contact the ACLU and ask for their help
.

Now THAT is a beautiful idea.

The ACLU would probably give their help, if anybody's civil liberties were at stake in this case (which clearly isn't the case).

After all, the ACLU protected the civil liberties of the American Nazis who wanted to march in Skokie, Ill. They don't only defend the constitutional rights of nice people . . .

Do they EVER defend the civil rights of nice people? They always seem so concerned about American Nazis and terrorists at Gitmo...

but I've never actually heard of them rushing to the aid of a Christian getting his/her first amendment rights trampled.

[alphabits]

So now that the facts are out there, and we all realize that nobody's closing anything, merely exercising their rights to free speech, we will continue to argue about the 'fantasy' instead, the fantasy that those 'evil left wingers' in Berkeley (maybe they should be included in the 'Axis of Evil' even) are running roughshod over the rights of the USMC.

This thread is about to 'jump the shark'.

I don't have a good feeling about this . . .

Well geez, this doesn't sound all warm and fuzzy. From the CODEPINK website: "Our immediate goal is to have clear zoning regulations for military recruiting and to put citizen pressure to shut down the existing recruiting station that is just blocks from Berkeley City College, UC Berkeley, and Berkeley High School." They can spin it any way they want but it sure sounds to me like they have no problem denying freedom of speech to the "evil recruiting station". I can only guess that their issue with it being close to the schools mentioned is that they recognize that their children are too stupid to resist that persuasive sales pitch from those "evil recruiters".

[alphabits]

The ACLU would probably give their help, if anybody's civil liberties were at stake in this case (which clearly isn't the case).

After all, the ACLU protected the civil liberties of the American Nazis who wanted to march in Skokie, Ill. They don't only defend the constitutional rights of nice people . . .

Do they EVER defend the civil rights of nice people? They always seem so concerned about American Nazis and terrorists at Gitmo...

but I've never actually heard of them rushing to the aid of a Christian getting his/her first amendment rights trampled.

You might be surprised ......

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/may/22.64.html

[krusin1]

The ACLU would probably give their help, if anybody's civil liberties were at stake in this case (which clearly isn't the case).

After all, the ACLU protected the civil liberties of the American Nazis who wanted to march in Skokie, Ill. They don't only defend the constitutional rights of nice people . . .

Do they EVER defend the civil rights of nice people? They always seem so concerned about American Nazis and terrorists at Gitmo...

but I've never actually heard of them rushing to the aid of a Christian getting his/her first amendment rights trampled.

You might be surprised ......

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/may/22.64.html

I stand corrected... they have defended Christians.

I would still submit, however, that when it comes to defending free speech rights of those "on the right," the ACLU is missing in action more times than not.

[flyboy55]

So now that the facts are out there, and we all realize that nobody's closing anything, merely exercising their rights to free speech, we will continue to argue about the 'fantasy' instead, the fantasy that those 'evil left wingers' in Berkeley (maybe they should be included in the 'Axis of Evil' even) are running roughshod over the rights of the USMC.

This thread is about to 'jump the shark'.

I don't have a good feeling about this . . .

Well geez, this doesn't sound all warm and fuzzy. From the CODEPINK website: "Our immediate goal is to have clear zoning regulations for military recruiting and to put citizen pressure to shut down the existing recruiting station that is just blocks from Berkeley City College, UC Berkeley, and Berkeley High School." They can spin it any way they want but it sure sounds to me like they have no problem denying freedom of speech to the "evil recruiting station". I can only guess that their issue with it being close to the schools mentioned is that they recognize that their children are too stupid to resist that persuasive sales pitch from those "evil recruiters".

No not 'stupid' as you said, just more likely to be manipulated by half truths and false promises . . .

More from the City of Berkeley's website:

Also attending Thursday’s rally was Sharon Adams, a member of Code Pink and the National Lawyers Guild who is gathering signatures for a petition that would put a measure on the November ballot in Berkeley that would make it more difficult to open military recruiting offices near homes, parks, schools, churches, libraries or health clinics.

Supporters of the measure need to gather 5,000 signatures by the end of July to get it placed on the ballot.

Adams said the measure wouldn’t ban military recruiting offices but would require public hearings if they’re within 600 feet of schools, homes, churches or similar facilities.

However, the measure wouldn’t apply to offices that already are open, so it wouldn’t affect the current Marines recruiting office, she said.

[SharkOnLand]

Also attending Thursday’s rally was Sharon Adams, a member of Code Pink and the National Lawyers Guild who is gathering signatures for a petition that would put a measure on the November ballot in Berkeley that would make it more difficult to open military recruiting offices near homes, parks, schools, churches, libraries or health clinics.

Supporters of the measure need to gather 5,000 signatures by the end of July to get it placed on the ballot.

Adams said the measure wouldn’t ban military recruiting offices but would require public hearings if they’re within 600 feet of schools, homes, churches or similar facilities.

However, the measure wouldn’t apply to offices that already are open, so it wouldn’t affect the current Marines recruiting office, she said.

I wonder if that lady even lives in Berkeley? I'd be willing to bet not. If I were a citizen, I'd hate the fact that outside influences were trying to push legislation in my backyard.....

[krusin1]

So now that the facts are out there, and we all realize that nobody's closing anything, merely exercising their rights to free speech, we will continue to argue about the 'fantasy' instead, the fantasy that those 'evil left wingers' in Berkeley (maybe they should be included in the 'Axis of Evil' even) are running roughshod over the rights of the USMC.

This thread is about to 'jump the shark'.

I don't have a good feeling about this . . .

Well geez, this doesn't sound all warm and fuzzy. From the CODEPINK website: "Our immediate goal is to have clear zoning regulations for military recruiting and to put citizen pressure to shut down the existing recruiting station that is just blocks from Berkeley City College, UC Berkeley, and Berkeley High School." They can spin it any way they want but it sure sounds to me like they have no problem denying freedom of speech to the "evil recruiting station". I can only guess that their issue with it being close to the schools mentioned is that they recognize that their children are too stupid to resist that persuasive sales pitch from those "evil recruiters".

No not 'stupid' as you said, just more likely to be manipulated by half truths and false promises . . .

FB55... no disrespect intended and I'm genuinely curious... what has happened that has caused you to be so anti-military?

[alphabits]

So now that the facts are out there, and we all realize that nobody's closing anything, merely exercising their rights to free speech, we will continue to argue about the 'fantasy' instead, the fantasy that those 'evil left wingers' in Berkeley (maybe they should be included in the 'Axis of Evil' even) are running roughshod over the rights of the USMC.

This thread is about to 'jump the shark'.

I don't have a good feeling about this . . .

Well geez, this doesn't sound all warm and fuzzy. From the CODEPINK website: "Our immediate goal is to have clear zoning regulations for military recruiting and to put citizen pressure to shut down the existing recruiting station that is just blocks from Berkeley City College, UC Berkeley, and Berkeley High School." They can spin it any way they want but it sure sounds to me like they have no problem denying freedom of speech to the "evil recruiting station". I can only guess that their issue with it being close to the schools mentioned is that they recognize that their children are too stupid to resist that persuasive sales pitch from those "evil recruiters".

No not 'stupid' as you said, just more likely to be manipulated by half truths and false promises . . .

More from the City of Berkeley's website:

Also attending Thursday’s rally was Sharon Adams, a member of Code Pink and the National Lawyers Guild who is gathering signatures for a petition that would put a measure on the November ballot in Berkeley that would make it more difficult to open military recruiting offices near homes, parks, schools, churches, libraries or health clinics.

Supporters of the measure need to gather 5,000 signatures by the end of July to get it placed on the ballot.

Adams said the measure wouldn’t ban military recruiting offices but would require public hearings if they’re within 600 feet of schools, homes, churches or similar facilities.

However, the measure wouldn’t apply to offices that already are open, so it wouldn’t affect the current Marines recruiting office, she said.

I think it's sad then that they give their children so little credit ..... or is it that they think those military recruiters are such gifted manipulators? Or maybe they're selective about which "half-truths" they want them manipulated with.

I'm playing this one right down the middle. I think the senators who are pushing for federal legislation are just a couple of self-serving windbags who ought to have more important things to worry about. (Much like our own senator Arlen Spector, who seems more obsessed with whether the NE Patriots were cheating.) I also think the Berkeley resolution is just silly. If you're opposed to the war then elect people who share your view and will do something about it. It seems to me that attempting to stop or impede recruiting does nothing but weaken the military in the future. (Hoping we won't need it, but nice to know it's there and prepared if we do.)

In the interest of full disclosure: I was and remain an opponent of the war in Iraq. My son is currently a US Marine (stationed stateside) - and no, I don't believe he was "manipulated" into enlisting.

[AlbatrossFlyer]

one time i was in berkeley i boosted one of these from the city elders (oops probably can't use elders since they would probably consider it sexist, city fathers, nope can't use that either. okay how about city government)



meanwhile within city limits, the lawrence livermore labs at Cal are busily working on the next generation h bomb

[SchoolGirlHeart]

would make it more difficult to open military recruiting offices near homes, parks, schools, churches, libraries or health clinics.

so where is the military going to recruit from? the penitentiary?

I suspect some of these people would be singing a different tune if Berkley was attacked by an enemy and needed an armed defense. People used to chuckle at statements like this.... before 9/11........

[flipflopgirl]

So now that the facts are out there, and we all realize that nobody's closing anything, merely exercising their rights to free speech, we will continue to argue about the 'fantasy' instead, the fantasy that those 'evil left wingers' in Berkeley (maybe they should be included in the 'Axis of Evil' even) are running roughshod over the rights of the USMC.

This thread is about to 'jump the shark'.

I don't have a good feeling about this . . .

Well geez, this doesn't sound all warm and fuzzy. From the CODEPINK website: "Our immediate goal is to have clear zoning regulations for military recruiting and to put citizen pressure to shut down the existing recruiting station that is just blocks from Berkeley City College, UC Berkeley, and Berkeley High School." They can spin it any way they want but it sure sounds to me like they have no problem denying freedom of speech to the "evil recruiting station". I can only guess that their issue with it being close to the schools mentioned is that they recognize that their children are too stupid to resist that persuasive sales pitch from those "evil recruiters".

No not 'stupid' as you said, just more likely to be manipulated by half truths and false promises . . .

More from the City of Berkeley's website:

Also attending Thursday’s rally was Sharon Adams, a member of Code Pink and the National Lawyers Guild who is gathering signatures for a petition that would put a measure on the November ballot in Berkeley that would make it more difficult to open military recruiting offices near homes, parks, schools, churches, libraries or health clinics.

Supporters of the measure need to gather 5,000 signatures by the end of July to get it placed on the ballot.

Adams said the measure wouldn’t ban military recruiting offices but would require public hearings if they’re within 600 feet of schools, homes, churches or similar facilities.

However, the measure wouldn’t apply to offices that already are open, so it wouldn’t affect the current Marines recruiting office, she said.

I think it's sad then that they give their children so little credit ..... or is it that they think those military recruiters are such gifted manipulators? Or maybe they're selective about which "half-truths" they want them manipulated with.

I'm playing this one right down the middle. I think the senators who are pushing for federal legislation are just a couple of self-serving windbags who ought to have more important things to worry about. (Much like our own senator Arlen Spector, who seems more obsessed with whether the NE Patriots were cheating.) I also think the Berkeley resolution is just silly. If you're opposed to the war then elect people who share your view and will do something about it. It seems to me that attempting to stop or impede recruiting does nothing but weaken the military in the future. (Hoping we won't need it, but nice to know it's there and prepared if we do.)

In the interest of full disclosure: I was and remain an opponent of the war in Iraq. My son is currently a US Marine (stationed stateside) - and no, I don't believe he was "manipulated" into enlisting.

Well said Bits! and thanks again to your son for serving and protecting us!!!!!

[SchoolGirlHeart]

No not 'stupid' as you said, just more likely to be manipulated by half truths and false promises . . .

But as with any contract (for those who aren't aware of it, an enlistment is a legal contract), no individual should sign unless they understand the terms and agree to them. And if it's not in writing, doesn't matter what he recruiter said, it doesn't exist.....

[flipflopgirl]

would make it more difficult to open military recruiting offices near homes, parks, schools, churches, libraries or health clinics.

so where is the military going to recruit from? the penitentiary?

I suspect some of these people would be singing a different tune if Berkley was attacked by an enemy and needed an armed defense. People used to chuckle at statements like this.... before 9/11........

You are so right Jen! They would be the first ones to b*tch and moan that the military wasn't there to protect them!

[SchoolGirlHeart]

FB55... no disrespect intended and I'm genuinely curious... what has happened that has caused you to be so anti-military?

I'm not FB55 and clearly I'm not anti-military, but I can address your implied questions about recruiters. There have indeed been documented cases of recruiters not being completely straight with candidates, in order to sign people up and meet their recruiting quotas. It doesn't happen frequently but it does happen.

It's important for anyone considering the military (and for parents, for younger people) to understand everything in that contract before it's signed because yes, the military DOES put restrictions on you. Some of my freedoms ARE curtailed in the interest of protecting everyone else's. For instance, you won't see me posting about Presidential candidates, or commenting on the current President, good, bad or indifferent.

The comments out of Berkley about the military curtailing freedom of speech only proves that they lack an understanding of the balance of power laid out in the Constitution. We swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, which says that civilians run this country. Every military officer in this country "serves at the pleasure of the President." We don't get to "diss" our civilian leadership. That's part of the reason we've had peaceful transfer of power and absence of military coups in this country since its inception.

[C-Dawg]

Doesn't that set a precedent then that any community that objects to any federal mandate risks losing all their funds?

Yes, and it happens all the time....Vermont was the last state to increase it's drinking age to 21, and it was finally done because the Feds told the state that if it didn't, Federal Highway dollars would be withheld...the State caved. In the past few years, due to DUI's, drunk and disorderly cases etc, the colleges in Vermont have openly began to discuss asking the State to consider going back to 21 for the drinking age, so they could serve alcohol on campus, and try to keep the kids on campus, thus preventing them driving etc. Personally, i think it's a great idea.

Berkeley is well within their rights to protest against the war etc, as that's freedom of speech. But when they deny a US resident entry into their city because of their job, sex, race etc, thats discrimination, and shouldn't be tolerated. The city councellors who pased this, and those that hinder the Marines from entering the city should be arrested. So what if the office only opened a year ago, that should have no bearing on the issue, any more than a Korean family opening a store or a gay couple opening an art gallery. Freedom of speech applies to everyone, not just those you agree with

[SchoolGirlHeart]

Berkeley is well within their rights to protest against the war etc, as that's freedom of speech. But when they deny a US resident entry into their city because of their job, sex, race etc, thats discrimination, and shouldn't be tolerated. The city councellors who pased this, and those that hinder the Marines from entering the city should be arrested. So what if the office only opened a year ago, that should have no bearing on the issue, any more than a Korean family opening a store or a gay couple opening an art gallery. Freedom of speech applies to everyone, not just those you agree with.

Hear, hear!!! On all counts!!!

[SchoolGirlHeart]

Here's my bottom line:

Protest the war? Fine. No problem at all. Freedom of speech is one thing that makes this a *great* country. But figuratively spit on the young men and women who have sworn to protect that right, and if so ordered would die protecting you? THAT JUST PLAIN FLAT OUT P*SSES ME OFF!

[flipflopgirl]

Very well said C-Dawg and Jen!

[ragtopW]

not in Berkeley they won't. Those protesters aren't going anywhere. They always find something to be against.

Oh, they'll still be there protesting something ..... but it'll be something other than the Marines.

"IT'S TOO SUNNY. IT'S TOO SUNNY."

not on that side of the Bay.. it gets right foggy..

[ragtopW]

Here's my bottom line:

Protest the war? Fine. No problem at all. Freedom of speech is one thing that makes this a *great* country. But figuratively spit on the young men and women who have sworn to protect that right, and if so ordered would die protecting you? THAT JUST PLAIN FLAT OUT P*SSES ME OFF!

being raised near the Bay during the Vietnam era..
I saw just that happen a time or two...

I was like ?? ten or twelve..