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bocanuts wrote:So do you believe or disbelieve? Why or why not? What's your religious background if any?

yes i believe
why...because it my choice
Catholic....and i do go every Sunday and Holy Days!!...even after Buffett shows or Phlockings!!!

I'm a firm believer in Whatever Works.

One of my spiritual teachers was a Native American medicine man named Sun Bear. He said, "If your spiritual path doesn't grow corn - take care of you every day of your life - I don't want to hear about it." Wise words.

If God, or the Creative Power by whatever name, is infinite, then there must be an infinite number of ways of communicating with and honoring Him/Her/Them. I have some ways that seem to work for me, in that I make the occasional request and get something that strongly resembles an Answer. And I give thanks a lot.

If someone else gets results from the Church of their Choice, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Great Ghu, more power to them. As Sun Bear would have said, "It's all good."

TropicalTroubador wrote:I'm a firm believer in Whatever Works.

One of my spiritual teachers was a Native American medicine man named Sun Bear. He said, "If your spiritual path doesn't grow corn - take care of you every day of your life - I don't want to hear about it." Wise words.

If God, or the Creative Power by whatever name, is infinite, then there must be an infinite number of ways of communicating with and honoring Him/Her/Them. I have some ways that seem to work for me, in that I make the occasional request and get something that strongly resembles an Answer. And I give thanks a lot.

If someone else gets results from the Church of their Choice, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Great Ghu, more power to them. As Sun Bear would have said, "It's all good."

That's pretty much what works for me.



I wasn't raised in a church. My parents left it up to all of their 5 children to decide what they were seeking once they were able to choose what was right for them.

I don't think all we have as a physical form was done by accident..
(Earth and all it's wonders)
I was raised Mormon,, No don't go.. thanks.
my biggest things I have.. I do not believe in a cruel and unjust G~D
I think we have a balance sheet.. and that is how we will be judged..
Were you a total Jerk?... Hope you like it hot..
Did you do good works along with the Mistakes?.. Well let's see.....


my other one?? another whole thread....

I bet quite a few of the 6,000,00 Jews murdered in WWII believed in an unjust and cruel God, or probably more appropraitely lost their faith. People were thrown alive into ovens, often small children, babies had their heads bashed in in front of their mothers. 6,000,000! And where God?

Anyone who studies the Bible at any length historically begins to see that there are many fallacies and inaccuracies. It has been my experience that people want to hold onto something they find comforting in religion. Just because something is comforting does not, in any shape, form or fashion, make it true.

I was forced to go to catholic church as a child. Forced to go to CCD. I HATED every minute of it. I thought it was such a joke my confirmation name was Lawrence, for Larry Bird (they would not let me use Larry). The only saint I believed in.

Where was God? I believe that God was in the ovens, just as God is in the rape rooms in the Congo, God is in Darfur, Sudan, God is in the chemo rooms, and hospital beds, but God is also in the eyes of the little girl in your sig line. I don't know why humans do horrid things to each other, but remember this if everyone followed the teachings of God and Christ then the Holocaust, the killing fields of Pol Pot, or any of the hundreds of genocides or horrors never would have occurred.

I'm not trying to throw you under the bus or anything. You question is legitimate and understandable. One of the struggles of any pastor, theologian , or religious leader is reconciling God and tragedy. It's not easy and I am not claiming to have the answer, but some thoughts. This world is not God's desire, but that's freewill for you.

Thanks for the response Brad.

Actually the problem of evil, while it is the premiere objection, for most people, to the Christian concept of God, I feel the relative importance attached is exxagerated. Within the context of other difficulties surrounding the concept of God, this one is minor by comparison (historical considerations, at least to me, are the largest objections).
But since you bring up free will, I'll address it.

Theologians argue that evil is the consequence of man’s freely chosen actions. God, through his gift of free will, gave man the ability to distinguish and choose between good and evil, right and wrong. As a free agent, man has the potential to reach a higher degree of perfection and goodness than if he were a mere robot programmed to behave in a
given manner. Thus it is good that man has free will. But this entails the opportunity for man to select evil instead of good, which has been the case in the instances of torture, murder, and cruelty which some men inflict upon others. The responsibility for these actions, however, rests with man,not with God. Therefore, concludes the Christian, evil does not conflict with the infinite goodness of God.

While this approach has some initial plausibility, it falls far short of solving the problem of evil. We are asked to believe that God created man with the power of choice in the hope that man would voluntarily pursue the good, but that man thwarts this desire of God through sin and thus brings evilupon himself. But, to begin with, to speak of frustrating or acting contrary to the wishes of an omnipotent being makes no sense whatsoever. There can be no barriers to divine omnipotence, no
obstacles to thwart his desires, so we must assume that the present state of the world is precisely as God desires it to be. If God wished things to be other than they are, nothing could possibly prevent them from being other than they are, man’s free will notwithstanding. In addition, free will is incompatible with the foreknowledge possessed by an omniscient being, so the appeal to free will fails in this respect as well. In any case, God created man with full knowledge of the widespread suffering that would ensue, and, given his ability to prevent this situation, we must
presume that God desired and willed these immoral atrocities to occur.

It is unfair to place the responsibility for immoral actions on man’s free will in general. Individual men commit atrocities, not the bloodless abstraction “man.” Some men commit blatant injustices, but others do not. Some men murder, rob, and cheat, but others do not. Some men
choose a policy of wanton destructiveness, but others do not. And we must remember that crimes are committed by men against other men, innocent victims, who cannot be held responsible. The
minimum requirement for a civilized society is a legal system whereby the individual liberties of men are protected from the aggressive activities of other men. We regard the recognition and
protection of individual rights as a moral necessity, and we condemn governments that fail to provide a fair system of justice. How, then, are we to evaluate a God who permits widespread instances of injustice when it is easily within his power to prevent them? The Christian believes in
a God who displays little, if any, interest in the protection of the innocent, and we must wonder how such a being can be called “good.”

The above, couple with my historical objections does not leave the option of the Christian God open to me. There may be a God, but I will have to fall back on the deist viewpoint of God in this consideration, which in and of itself has objections it must answer.

Oh, I wanted to add this as a side item. My wife is religious and goes to a Southern Baptist church here in Mississippi. I have no problems with her being religious nor, if my daughter chooses to do the same. I do wish that she would invetigater her beliefs instead of buying into all that is told to her, however.

I actually go to church with my wife on most Sundays. No one knows how I feel about Christianity as I do not feel it is my place to do so. I am however, constantly amazed my some of the boneheaded statements that are made in church. Two weeks ago someone makes the inane sattement that God does not give you more than you can handle. Even if one does accept Christianity as true,it is hard to buy into such a view. Look again at the mother who has just seen her child's head bashed in or has lerned her boyfriend has raped and murdered her child. It simply flies in the face of reason and logic.

bocanuts wrote:Thanks for the response Brad.

Actually the problem of evil, while it is the premiere objection, for most people, to the Christian concept of God, I feel the relative importance attached is exxagerated. Within the context of other difficulties surrounding the concept of God, this one is minor by comparison (historical considerations, at least to me, are the largest objections).
But since you bring up free will, I'll address it.

Theologians argue that evil is the consequence of man’s freely chosen actions. God, through his gift of free will, gave man the ability to distinguish and choose between good and evil, right and wrong. As a free agent, man has the potential to reach a higher degree of perfection and goodness than if he were a mere robot programmed to behave in a
given manner. Thus it is good that man has free will. But this entails the opportunity for man to select evil instead of good, which has been the case in the instances of torture, murder, and cruelty which some men inflict upon others. The responsibility for these actions, however, rests with man,not with God. Therefore, concludes the Christian, evil does not conflict with the infinite goodness of God.

While this approach has some initial plausibility, it falls far short of solving the problem of evil. We are asked to believe that God created man with the power of choice in the hope that man would voluntarily pursue the good, but that man thwarts this desire of God through sin and thus brings evilupon himself. But, to begin with, to speak of frustrating or acting contrary to the wishes of an omnipotent being makes no sense whatsoever. There can be no barriers to divine omnipotence, no
obstacles to thwart his desires, so we must assume that the present state of the world is precisely as God desires it to be. If God wished things to be other than they are, nothing could possibly prevent them from being other than they are, man’s free will notwithstanding. In addition, free will is incompatible with the foreknowledge possessed by an omniscient being, so the appeal to free will fails in this respect as well. In any case, God created man with full knowledge of the widespread suffering that would ensue, and, given his ability to prevent this situation, we must
presume that God desired and willed these immoral atrocities to occur.

It is unfair to place the responsibility for immoral actions on man’s free will in general. Individual men commit atrocities, not the bloodless abstraction “man.” Some men commit blatant injustices, but others do not. Some men murder, rob, and cheat, but others do not. Some men
choose a policy of wanton destructiveness, but others do not. And we must remember that crimes are committed by men against other men, innocent victims, who cannot be held responsible. The
minimum requirement for a civilized society is a legal system whereby the individual liberties of men are protected from the aggressive activities of other men. We regard the recognition and
protection of individual rights as a moral necessity, and we condemn governments that fail to provide a fair system of justice. How, then, are we to evaluate a God who permits widespread instances of injustice when it is easily within his power to prevent them? The Christian believes in
a God who displays little, if any, interest in the protection of the innocent, and we must wonder how such a being can be called “good.”

The above, couple with my historical objections does not leave the option of the Christian God open to me. There may be a God, but I will have to fall back on the deist viewpoint of God in this consideration, which in and of itself has objections it must answer.

George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God, right?

bocanuts wrote:Oh, I wanted to add this as a side item. My wife is religious and goes to a Southern Baptist church here in Mississippi. I have no problems with her being religious nor, if my daughter chooses to do the same. I do wish that she would invetigater her beliefs instead of buying into all that is told to her, however.

I actually go to church with my wife on most Sundays. No one knows how I feel about Christianity as I do not feel it is my place to do so. I am however, constantly amazed my some of the boneheaded statements that are made in church. Two weeks ago someone makes the inane sattement that God does not give you more than you can handle. Even if one does accept Christianity as true,it is hard to buy into such a view. Look again at the mother who has just seen her child's head bashed in or has lerned her boyfriend has raped and murdered her child. It simply flies in the face of reason and logic.

Belief in God is not based on reason or logic.

UAHparrothead wrote:

bocanuts wrote:Thanks for the response Brad.

Actually the problem of evil, while it is the premiere objection, for most people, to the Christian concept of God, I feel the relative importance attached is exxagerated. Within the context of other difficulties surrounding the concept of God, this one is minor by comparison (historical considerations, at least to me, are the largest objections).
But since you bring up free will, I'll address it.

Theologians argue that evil is the consequence of man’s freely chosen actions. God, through his gift of free will, gave man the ability to distinguish and choose between good and evil, right and wrong. As a free agent, man has the potential to reach a higher degree of perfection and goodness than if he were a mere robot programmed to behave in a
given manner. Thus it is good that man has free will. But this entails the opportunity for man to select evil instead of good, which has been the case in the instances of torture, murder, and cruelty which some men inflict upon others. The responsibility for these actions, however, rests with man,not with God. Therefore, concludes the Christian, evil does not conflict with the infinite goodness of God.

While this approach has some initial plausibility, it falls far short of solving the problem of evil. We are asked to believe that God created man with the power of choice in the hope that man would voluntarily pursue the good, but that man thwarts this desire of God through sin and thus brings evilupon himself. But, to begin with, to speak of frustrating or acting contrary to the wishes of an omnipotent being makes no sense whatsoever. There can be no barriers to divine omnipotence, no
obstacles to thwart his desires, so we must assume that the present state of the world is precisely as God desires it to be. If God wished things to be other than they are, nothing could possibly prevent them from being other than they are, man’s free will notwithstanding. In addition, free will is incompatible with the foreknowledge possessed by an omniscient being, so the appeal to free will fails in this respect as well. In any case, God created man with full knowledge of the widespread suffering that would ensue, and, given his ability to prevent this situation, we must
presume that God desired and willed these immoral atrocities to occur.

It is unfair to place the responsibility for immoral actions on man’s free will in general. Individual men commit atrocities, not the bloodless abstraction “man.” Some men commit blatant injustices, but others do not. Some men murder, rob, and cheat, but others do not. Some men
choose a policy of wanton destructiveness, but others do not. And we must remember that crimes are committed by men against other men, innocent victims, who cannot be held responsible. The
minimum requirement for a civilized society is a legal system whereby the individual liberties of men are protected from the aggressive activities of other men. We regard the recognition and
protection of individual rights as a moral necessity, and we condemn governments that fail to provide a fair system of justice. How, then, are we to evaluate a God who permits widespread instances of injustice when it is easily within his power to prevent them? The Christian believes in
a God who displays little, if any, interest in the protection of the innocent, and we must wonder how such a being can be called “good.”

The above, couple with my historical objections does not leave the option of the Christian God open to me. There may be a God, but I will have to fall back on the deist viewpoint of God in this consideration, which in and of itself has objections it must answer.

George H Smith, Atheism: The Case Against God, right?

Yep, Smith succinctly describes the free will problem and you've just gained a lot of respect from me from recognizing that I quoted him, as most preachers probably don't know who he is. KUDOS!!


Like I said, the aforesaid coupled with the historical objections does it for me. And actually the historical objections are more fascinating to me than anything because it moves out of the realm of logic, philosophy, resoning and so on nad tocuhes upon things that can be objectively viewed and investigated.

Ukulady wrote:

bocanuts wrote:Oh, I wanted to add this as a side item. My wife is religious and goes to a Southern Baptist church here in Mississippi. I have no problems with her being religious nor, if my daughter chooses to do the same. I do wish that she would invetigater her beliefs instead of buying into all that is told to her, however.

I actually go to church with my wife on most Sundays. No one knows how I feel about Christianity as I do not feel it is my place to do so. I am however, constantly amazed my some of the boneheaded statements that are made in church. Two weeks ago someone makes the inane sattement that God does not give you more than you can handle. Even if one does accept Christianity as true,it is hard to buy into such a view. Look again at the mother who has just seen her child's head bashed in or has lerned her boyfriend has raped and murdered her child. It simply flies in the face of reason and logic.

Belief in God is not based on reason or logic.

I agree although arguments can be made otherwise.

bocanuts wrote:
Yep, Smith succinctly describes the free will problem and you've just gained a lot of respect from me from recognizing that I quoted him, as most preachers probably don't know who he is. KUDOS!!


Like I said, the aforesaid coupled with the historical objections does it for me. And actually the historical objections are more fascinating to me than anything because it moves out of the realm of logic, philosophy, resoning and so on nad tocuhes upon things that can be objectively viewed and investigated.

And I respect that, I wish I could give answers to your questions, but I am not nearly qualified and some as Ukulady says somes aspects of any religion require faith and therefore would not be acceptable to some.

UAHparrothead wrote:

bocanuts wrote:
Yep, Smith succinctly describes the free will problem and you've just gained a lot of respect from me from recognizing that I quoted him, as most preachers probably don't know who he is. KUDOS!!


Like I said, the aforesaid coupled with the historical objections does it for me. And actually the historical objections are more fascinating to me than anything because it moves out of the realm of logic, philosophy, resoning and so on nad tocuhes upon things that can be objectively viewed and investigated.

And I respect that, I wish I could give answers to your questions, but I am not nearly qualified and some as Ukulady says somes aspects of any religion require faith and therefore would not be acceptable to some.

Good enough! I can respect where you are coming from. I love debating this stuff but gotta get back to work. Have a good one!

Moonie wrote:

bocanuts wrote:

Moonie wrote:

OK Brad, is that the same Jake from CoB,O fame?

cute kid, BTW....

what happened to your mvoing to a remote Island back a few years ago? Pipe dream or just on the back burner for a while?

Hey moonie, Yep that's the one and only Jake of CoBo fame and Terri Schivao fame!

Yep, she's a cutie. And no, it's not on the back burner. It's part of a ten year plan. Plan is to be there in 10 years. 3 1/2 years into it as of right now.

Aaaahahah..well, you tell that Jake, Moonie and Sam said HEY!! Did he ever find a chick that would say....Yes?

and never lose track of the best laid plans of mice and men.....

Hey Moonie!!! How ya been?

Yes, I finally did find someone crazy enough to marry me about two years ago.

So how is that Russian mail order bride working?

I'm just as open to the possibility of there being a god as not, but for the most part, I really don't believe in god. Science is most of the reason for this I suppose. I do actually go to church some but it's mostly because I like the people there. I don't pray but I send out good vibes. Be cool to the universe and hope for the best and make margaritas out of the limes that life sometimes tosses me.

bocanuts wrote:I bet quite a few of the 6,000,00 Jews murdered in WWII believed in an unjust and cruel God, or probably more appropraitely lost their faith. People were thrown alive into ovens, often small children, babies had their heads bashed in in front of their mothers. 6,000,000! And where God?

When I was just five years old, my parents sent my sister and I to an Orthodox Synagogue for Sunday school.
I was a quick learner, and by the time I was six I realized that our family clearly was not religous, but that a religous education for us was very important to them.
I also figured out on my own WHY they were'nt religous, without either of them having to say a thing.

Knowing that my mother and father were bothed raised in Germany, and that each had lost their parents as well as almost all of their brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles,and cousins to Hitlers death camps,
I assumed that they had lost all faith in G-D.
They had met in wartime London, after each narrowly escaping certain death at the hands of the Nazis.

Zionism became much more important to them then religion, and indeed their surviving relatives were among the founders of the State of Israel.

Most adults I knew through my parents were holocaust survivors with numbers tattooed on their arms.
Maybe that's why to this day I hate tattoos.
None of those people were still religous, despite having been raised with strict beliefs .
The few Orthodox relatives I knew growing up were all born in the U.S.,
and had been very busy praying while the remainder of the clan was perishing
in Europe.

My son is currently in Army ROTC and university flight training.
Had he chosen Rabbinical school, that would of course have been
a noble endeavor.

Personaly, I think he can bring about an end to terrorist regimes world-wide much more expeditiously with his current course of study.

Was raised Catholic...will go to church this Thursday for a mass for my dad, but that's about it. I'd like to believe; I wish I had more faith....the rest of my family does. My sister and mom both went to see the Pope (one in Washington, one in NY), but I'm pretty much a Doubting Thomas.