Dow Down 400 - Oils hits $139 - Why?

[RinglingRingling]

Old News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080609/bs_ ... LilUADW7oF

Oil seen hitting $150 this summer: Goldman analyst

KUALA LUMPUR (Reuters) - Oil prices are likely to hit $150 a barrel this summer season, the global head of commodities research at Goldman Sachs (GS.N) said on Monday, as tighter supplies outweigh weakening demand.

"I would suggest that the likelihood of that happening sooner has increased tremendously ... sometime in summer," Jeffrey Currie told an oil and gas conference in the Malaysian capital, referring to oil at $150 a barrel.

Goldman Sachs, the most active investment bank in energy markets and one of the first to point to triple-digit oil more than two years ago -- a once unthinkable level -- said last month oil could shoot up to $200 within the next two years as part of a "super spike."

and $5 gas, takes the country down. Because the big issue no one really mentions: Diesel has been over $4 for months. Not a lot of big rigs running on gasoline, so those higher diesel prices get passed on too. Gas at $5 means diesel at $6 or so.

Thank you Shrub. You've managed to secure a legacy for yourself...

Remember when truckers would get side by side on the freeways and drive at 55 mph all the way to Washington DC to protest high fuel prices, backing up traffic for miles and miles? I miss those days.

I also remember the experts saying that when oil hit $90/ it would be the equiv. of the prices at the height of the oil shocks in the mid-70s. Half-again as much, even with efficiencies from better technology and design can't make the hit any lighter than then...

[green1]

. . . BUT GWB and his military fiasco in Iraq is neither effective or capable.

Despite what soldiers on the ground are saying. And by soldiers, I mean specifically, the ones that I speak with on a regualr basis. Including family members and friends who are saying that gun violence is the lowest it has been in over 5 years, that the local police and military forces are effectively standing up more troops and taking over more missions every day. But those stories don't get printed here. Why? I can't answer that question. What was the last headline story out of Iraq? Was it any of the things I listed? Nope. Nor would I hold my breath to wait for those stories to appear. But you go on believing what the media tells you, it worked 30 to 40 years ago, I guess, if you let it, it can work again.

[The Lost Manatee]

I always enjoy these threads where people point fingers this way and that and in every direction but where the blame really resides and that is with the American people. If we don't get off our lazy butts and demand swift and certain action by our leaders and hold them accountable at the ballot box, then we will deserve what we get.

Right now if you look at the actual cost of electricity at the consumer end of the chain, so that the costs include everything from exploration, mining coal or drilling for oil and gas, processing, generation, transmission and clean up (that's a big one that is frequently overlooked), the end cost per kwh is about the same as wind power without any tax breaks. Anyone care to guess how many tax breaks and incentives coal, oil and gas companies get? It is amazing how many breaks. Let's see, Exxon Mobil sets the record for profits in pure dollar amounts, not as a rate of return on investment and they receive billions of dollars of tax breaks. Why do we give Exxon Mobil tax breaks when they are setting record profits? Why do we allow our leaders to give away our money like this?

It is in our national security interests to build hybrid cars here in this country, generate as much power as we can from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, as opposed to drilling in ANWAR, which by more and more accounts only has enough oil to drop our current (not projected rate of increase) rate of importing oil by 3 to 5 percent per year for a period of 10 to 12 years. And that is assuming that oil is actually shipped to the US and not to Asia, which is a more likely course of action.

The rallying cry shouldn't be drill more to postpone something by a few years, it should be "lets go green NOW". It makes good sense and it will make us secure in our border in terms of energy.

None of the current contenders for the President's office are willing to push something so radical as cutting tax breaks for big oil and coal and giving big breaks for the manufacture of hybrids and plug in electrical vehicles.

If we continue with our current policies we will only be pushed further and further into debt and our standard of living and standard of health will continue to diminish. This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

[krusin1]

I always enjoy these threads where people point fingers this way and that and in every direction but where the blame really resides and that is with the American people. If we don't get off our lazy butts and demand swift and certain action by our leaders and hold them accountable at the ballot box, then we will deserve what we get.

Right now if you look at the actual cost of electricity at the consumer end of the chain, so that the costs include everything from exploration, mining coal or drilling for oil and gas, processing, generation, transmission and clean up (that's a big one that is frequently overlooked), the end cost per kwh is about the same as wind power without any tax breaks. Anyone care to guess how many tax breaks and incentives coal, oil and gas companies get? It is amazing how many breaks. Let's see, Exxon Mobil sets the record for profits in pure dollar amounts, not as a rate of return on investment and they receive billions of dollars of tax breaks. Why do we give Exxon Mobil tax breaks when they are setting record profits? Why do we allow our leaders to give away our money like this?

It is in our national security interests to build hybrid cars here in this country, generate as much power as we can from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, as opposed to drilling in ANWAR, which by more and more accounts only has enough oil to drop our current (not projected rate of increase) rate of importing oil by 3 to 5 percent per year for a period of 10 to 12 years. And that is assuming that oil is actually shipped to the US and not to Asia, which is a more likely course of action.

The rallying cry shouldn't be drill more to postpone something by a few years, it should be "lets go green NOW". It makes good sense and it will make us secure in our border in terms of energy.

None of the current contenders for the President's office are willing to push something so radical as cutting tax breaks for big oil and coal and giving big breaks for the manufacture of hybrids and plug in electrical vehicles.

If we continue with our current policies we will only be pushed further and further into debt and our standard of living and standard of health will continue to diminish. This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

So, I guess you're in favor of cheap nuclear power to charge all those electric cars?

[RinglingRingling]

I always enjoy these threads where people point fingers this way and that and in every direction but where the blame really resides and that is with the American people. If we don't get off our lazy butts and demand swift and certain action by our leaders and hold them accountable at the ballot box, then we will deserve what we get.

Right now if you look at the actual cost of electricity at the consumer end of the chain, so that the costs include everything from exploration, mining coal or drilling for oil and gas, processing, generation, transmission and clean up (that's a big one that is frequently overlooked), the end cost per kwh is about the same as wind power without any tax breaks. Anyone care to guess how many tax breaks and incentives coal, oil and gas companies get? It is amazing how many breaks. Let's see, Exxon Mobil sets the record for profits in pure dollar amounts, not as a rate of return on investment and they receive billions of dollars of tax breaks. Why do we give Exxon Mobil tax breaks when they are setting record profits? Why do we allow our leaders to give away our money like this?

It is in our national security interests to build hybrid cars here in this country, generate as much power as we can from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, as opposed to drilling in ANWAR, which by more and more accounts only has enough oil to drop our current (not projected rate of increase) rate of importing oil by 3 to 5 percent per year for a period of 10 to 12 years. And that is assuming that oil is actually shipped to the US and not to Asia, which is a more likely course of action.

The rallying cry shouldn't be drill more to postpone something by a few years, it should be "lets go green NOW". It makes good sense and it will make us secure in our border in terms of energy.

None of the current contenders for the President's office are willing to push something so radical as cutting tax breaks for big oil and coal and giving big breaks for the manufacture of hybrids and plug in electrical vehicles.

If we continue with our current policies we will only be pushed further and further into debt and our standard of living and standard of health will continue to diminish. This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

but a) we can't have social welfare programs, because it would require cutting the corporate welfare programs we already have in place; and b) god forbid we get government involved in something for the good of all, because private industry was so willing to climb right into the game and get a man on the moon by the end of the 60s...

[krusin1]

I always enjoy these threads where people point fingers this way and that and in every direction but where the blame really resides and that is with the American people. If we don't get off our lazy butts and demand swift and certain action by our leaders and hold them accountable at the ballot box, then we will deserve what we get.

Right now if you look at the actual cost of electricity at the consumer end of the chain, so that the costs include everything from exploration, mining coal or drilling for oil and gas, processing, generation, transmission and clean up (that's a big one that is frequently overlooked), the end cost per kwh is about the same as wind power without any tax breaks. Anyone care to guess how many tax breaks and incentives coal, oil and gas companies get? It is amazing how many breaks. Let's see, Exxon Mobil sets the record for profits in pure dollar amounts, not as a rate of return on investment and they receive billions of dollars of tax breaks. Why do we give Exxon Mobil tax breaks when they are setting record profits? Why do we allow our leaders to give away our money like this?

It is in our national security interests to build hybrid cars here in this country, generate as much power as we can from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, as opposed to drilling in ANWAR, which by more and more accounts only has enough oil to drop our current (not projected rate of increase) rate of importing oil by 3 to 5 percent per year for a period of 10 to 12 years. And that is assuming that oil is actually shipped to the US and not to Asia, which is a more likely course of action.

The rallying cry shouldn't be drill more to postpone something by a few years, it should be "lets go green NOW". It makes good sense and it will make us secure in our border in terms of energy.

None of the current contenders for the President's office are willing to push something so radical as cutting tax breaks for big oil and coal and giving big breaks for the manufacture of hybrids and plug in electrical vehicles.

If we continue with our current policies we will only be pushed further and further into debt and our standard of living and standard of health will continue to diminish. This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

but a) we can't have social welfare programs, because it would require cutting the corporate welfare programs we already have in place; and b) god forbid we get government involved in something for the good of all, because private industry was so willing to climb right into the game and get a man on the moon by the end of the 60s...

Dude... who do you think DESIGNED AND BUILT all of that lunar equipment? Private Industry. The government just wrote the check.

BTW, your social welfare programs have largely been the CAUSE, not the antidote to poverty problems. The Great Society and the War on Poverty were well intentioned, but caused far more problems than they solved.

Don't you recall Bill Clinton's crowning achievement? Welfare Reform. It kicked a bunch of people off welfare... and guess what.... a LOT of them went out and got jobs.

[Tequila Revenge]

I always enjoy these threads where people point fingers this way and that and in every direction but where the blame really resides and that is with the American people. If we don't get off our lazy butts and demand swift and certain action by our leaders and hold them accountable at the ballot box, then we will deserve what we get.

Right now if you look at the actual cost of electricity at the consumer end of the chain, so that the costs include everything from exploration, mining coal or drilling for oil and gas, processing, generation, transmission and clean up (that's a big one that is frequently overlooked), the end cost per kwh is about the same as wind power without any tax breaks. Anyone care to guess how many tax breaks and incentives coal, oil and gas companies get? It is amazing how many breaks. Let's see, Exxon Mobil sets the record for profits in pure dollar amounts, not as a rate of return on investment and they receive billions of dollars of tax breaks. Why do we give Exxon Mobil tax breaks when they are setting record profits? Why do we allow our leaders to give away our money like this?

It is in our national security interests to build hybrid cars here in this country, generate as much power as we can from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, as opposed to drilling in ANWAR, which by more and more accounts only has enough oil to drop our current (not projected rate of increase) rate of importing oil by 3 to 5 percent per year for a period of 10 to 12 years. And that is assuming that oil is actually shipped to the US and not to Asia, which is a more likely course of action.

The rallying cry shouldn't be drill more to postpone something by a few years, it should be "lets go green NOW". It makes good sense and it will make us secure in our border in terms of energy.

None of the current contenders for the President's office are willing to push something so radical as cutting tax breaks for big oil and coal and giving big breaks for the manufacture of hybrids and plug in electrical vehicles.

If we continue with our current policies we will only be pushed further and further into debt and our standard of living and standard of health will continue to diminish. This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

Take it a step further and ask how much is ALL the solar energy that went into turning dinos into oil? You begin to get an undrstanding that the true cost of raw materials is much more than the cost to bring them into a mfg facility.

Have you watched, "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

[Salukulady]

. . . BUT GWB and his military fiasco in Iraq is neither effective or capable.

Despite what soldiers on the ground are saying. And by soldiers, I mean specifically, the ones that I speak with on a regualr basis. Including family members and friends who are saying that gun violence is the lowest it has been in over 5 years, that the local police and military forces are effectively standing up more troops and taking over more missions every day. But those stories don't get printed here. Why? I can't answer that question. What was the last headline story out of Iraq? Was it any of the things I listed? Nope. Nor would I hold my breath to wait for those stories to appear. But you go on believing what the media tells you, it worked 30 to 40 years ago, I guess, if you let it, it can work again.

Just like that other war worked 30 years ago too? That was neither effective or capable in the end either......

[Salukulady]

I always enjoy these threads where people point fingers this way and that and in every direction but where the blame really resides and that is with the American people. If we don't get off our lazy butts and demand swift and certain action by our leaders and hold them accountable at the ballot box, then we will deserve what we get.

Right now if you look at the actual cost of electricity at the consumer end of the chain, so that the costs include everything from exploration, mining coal or drilling for oil and gas, processing, generation, transmission and clean up (that's a big one that is frequently overlooked), the end cost per kwh is about the same as wind power without any tax breaks. Anyone care to guess how many tax breaks and incentives coal, oil and gas companies get? It is amazing how many breaks. Let's see, Exxon Mobil sets the record for profits in pure dollar amounts, not as a rate of return on investment and they receive billions of dollars of tax breaks. Why do we give Exxon Mobil tax breaks when they are setting record profits? Why do we allow our leaders to give away our money like this?

It is in our national security interests to build hybrid cars here in this country, generate as much power as we can from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, as opposed to drilling in ANWAR, which by more and more accounts only has enough oil to drop our current (not projected rate of increase) rate of importing oil by 3 to 5 percent per year for a period of 10 to 12 years. And that is assuming that oil is actually shipped to the US and not to Asia, which is a more likely course of action.

The rallying cry shouldn't be drill more to postpone something by a few years, it should be "lets go green NOW". It makes good sense and it will make us secure in our border in terms of energy.

None of the current contenders for the President's office are willing to push something so radical as cutting tax breaks for big oil and coal and giving big breaks for the manufacture of hybrids and plug in electrical vehicles.

If we continue with our current policies we will only be pushed further and further into debt and our standard of living and standard of health will continue to diminish. This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

Take it a step further and ask how much is ALL the solar energy that went into turning dinos into oil? You begin to get an undrstanding that the true cost of raw materials is much more than the cost to bring them into a mfg facility.

Have you watched, "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

WATCH THE MOVIE, DAMNIT!

[RinglingRingling]

I always enjoy these threads where people point fingers this way and that and in every direction but where the blame really resides and that is with the American people. If we don't get off our lazy butts and demand swift and certain action by our leaders and hold them accountable at the ballot box, then we will deserve what we get.

Right now if you look at the actual cost of electricity at the consumer end of the chain, so that the costs include everything from exploration, mining coal or drilling for oil and gas, processing, generation, transmission and clean up (that's a big one that is frequently overlooked), the end cost per kwh is about the same as wind power without any tax breaks. Anyone care to guess how many tax breaks and incentives coal, oil and gas companies get? It is amazing how many breaks. Let's see, Exxon Mobil sets the record for profits in pure dollar amounts, not as a rate of return on investment and they receive billions of dollars of tax breaks. Why do we give Exxon Mobil tax breaks when they are setting record profits? Why do we allow our leaders to give away our money like this?

It is in our national security interests to build hybrid cars here in this country, generate as much power as we can from renewable sources, such as wind and solar, as opposed to drilling in ANWAR, which by more and more accounts only has enough oil to drop our current (not projected rate of increase) rate of importing oil by 3 to 5 percent per year for a period of 10 to 12 years. And that is assuming that oil is actually shipped to the US and not to Asia, which is a more likely course of action.

The rallying cry shouldn't be drill more to postpone something by a few years, it should be "lets go green NOW". It makes good sense and it will make us secure in our border in terms of energy.

None of the current contenders for the President's office are willing to push something so radical as cutting tax breaks for big oil and coal and giving big breaks for the manufacture of hybrids and plug in electrical vehicles.

If we continue with our current policies we will only be pushed further and further into debt and our standard of living and standard of health will continue to diminish. This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

but a) we can't have social welfare programs, because it would require cutting the corporate welfare programs we already have in place; and b) god forbid we get government involved in something for the good of all, because private industry was so willing to climb right into the game and get a man on the moon by the end of the 60s...

Dude... who do you think DESIGNED AND BUILT all of that lunar equipment? Private Industry. The government just wrote the check.

BTW, your social welfare programs have largely been the CAUSE, not the antidote to poverty problems. The Great Society and the War on Poverty were well intentioned, but caused far more problems than they solved.

Don't you recall Bill Clinton's crowning achievement? Welfare Reform. It kicked a bunch of people off welfare... and guess what.... a LOT of them went out and got jobs.

a) designed and built after the idea arrived. You didn't see the various and sundry come up with it on their own. Nor did you see the various and sundry do a moon launch solo. Without government involvement, it never would have happened.
b) as for Welfare Reform being the be-all, end-all; I think you paint a lot rosier picture of it being a perfect solution than reality. Did it trim the rolls, a bit. Just remember that the Fed released a study or two on the effects that show that unless getting off welfare is the result of a job that pays more than the cost of daycare for the parent(s), all you've done is shred the social safety net for the least-able to deal with it.

[Bfan53]

Remember Lee Iacocca, the man who rescued Chrysler Corporation from its death throes?

Had enough?

He is now 82 years old and has a new book. Here are some excerpts:

'Am I the only guy in this country who's fed up with what's happening? Where the heck is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder. We've got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we've got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can't even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car. But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, 'Stay the course.'

Stay the course? You've got to be kidding. This is America , not the darn 'Titanic.' I'll give you a sound bite: 'Throw all the bums out!'

You might think I'm getting senile, that I've gone off my rocker, and maybe I have. But someone has to speak up. I hardly recognize this country anymore.

The most famous business leaders are not the innovators but the guys in handcuffs. While we're fiddling in Iraq , the Middle East is burning and nobody seems to know what to do. And the press is waving 'pom poms' instead of asking hard questions. That's not the promise of the ' America ' my parents and yours traveled across the ocean for. I've had enough. How about you?

I'll go a step further. You can't call yourself a patriot if you're not outraged. This is a fight I'm ready and willing to have. The Biggest 'C' is Crisis! (Iacocca elaborates on nine C's of leadership - crisis being the first.)

Leadership is forged in times of crisis. Leaders are made - not born. It's easy to sit there with your feet up on the desk and talk theory. Or send someone else's kids off to war when you've never seen a battlefield yourself. It's another thing to lead when your world comes tumbling down.

We're running the biggest deficit in the history of the country.

We're losing the manufacturing edge to Asia , while our once-great companies are getting slaughtered by health care costs.

Gas prices are skyrocketing, and nobody in power has a coherent energy policy.

Our schools are in trouble!

Our borders are like sieves.

The middle class is being squeezed every which way. These are times that cry out for leadership.

But when you look around, you've got to ask, ' Where have all the leaders gone?' Where are the curious, creative communicators? Where are the people of character, courage, conviction, omnipotence, and common sense? I may be a sucker for alliteration, but I think you get the point.

Name me a leader who has a better idea for homeland security than making us take off our shoes in airports and throw away our shampoo?

We've spent billions of dollars building a huge new bureaucracy, and all we know how to do is react to things that have already happened.

Name me one leader who emerged from the crisis of Hurricane Katrina.

Congress has yet to spend a single day evaluating the response to the hurricane, or demanding accountability for the decisions that were made in the crucial hours after the storm. Everyone's hunkering down, fingers crossed, hoping it doesn't happen again.


Name me a government leader who can articulate a plan for paying down the debit, or solving the energy crisis, or managing the health care problem. The silence is deafening. But these are the crises that are eating away at our country and milking the middle class dry.

I have news for the gang in Congress:

'We didn't elect you to sit on your butts and do nothing and remain silent while our democracy is being hijacked and our greatness is being replaced with mediocrity.' Spending all our time describing everything using politically correct euphemisms as not to step on anyone toes. Call a spade a spade! Lets get real again.

What is everybody so afraid of? That some bonehead on Fox News will call them a name? Give me a break. Why don't you guys show some spine for a change?

Had Enough?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/iacocca.asp

There's more good reading on the Snopes page.

Wow, Mr. Iaccoca summed up every valid point possible.......and so many more. I doubted him when he said he'd turn around Chrysler, but he did.

I wonder why our elected officials can't answer these questions??????

[RinglingRingling]

Remember Lee Iacocca, the man who rescued Chrysler Corporation from its death throes?

Had enough?

He is now 82 years old and has a new book. Here are some excerpts:

'Am I the only guy in this country who's fed up with what's happening? Where the heck is our outrage? We should be screaming bloody murder. We've got a gang of clueless bozos steering our ship of state right over a cliff, we've got corporate gangsters stealing us blind, and we can't even clean up after a hurricane much less build a hybrid car. But instead of getting mad, everyone sits around and nods their heads when the politicians say, 'Stay the course.'

Stay the course? You've got to be kidding. This is America , not the darn 'Titanic.' I'll give you a sound bite: 'Throw all the bums out!'

You might think I'm getting senile, that I've gone off my rocker, and maybe I have. But someone has to speak up. I hardly recognize this country anymore.

The most famous business leaders are not the innovators but the guys in handcuffs. While we're fiddling in Iraq , the Middle East is burning and nobody seems to know what to do. And the press is waving 'pom poms' instead of asking hard questions. That's not the promise of the ' America ' my parents and yours traveled across the ocean for. I've had enough. How about you?

I'll go a step further. You can't call yourself a patriot if you're not outraged. This is a fight I'm ready and willing to have. The Biggest 'C' is Crisis! (Iacocca elaborates on nine C's of leadership - crisis being the first.)

Leadership is forged in times of crisis. Leaders are made - not born. It's easy to sit there with your feet up on the desk and talk theory. Or send someone else's kids off to war when you've never seen a battlefield yourself. It's another thing to lead when your world comes tumbling down.

We're running the biggest deficit in the history of the country.

We're losing the manufacturing edge to Asia , while our once-great companies are getting slaughtered by health care costs.

Gas prices are skyrocketing, and nobody in power has a coherent energy policy.

Our schools are in trouble!

Our borders are like sieves.

The middle class is being squeezed every which way. These are times that cry out for leadership.

But when you look around, you've got to ask, ' Where have all the leaders gone?' Where are the curious, creative communicators? Where are the people of character, courage, conviction, omnipotence, and common sense? I may be a sucker for alliteration, but I think you get the point.

Name me a leader who has a better idea for homeland security than making us take off our shoes in airports and throw away our shampoo?

We've spent billions of dollars building a huge new bureaucracy, and all we know how to do is react to things that have already happened.

Name me one leader who emerged from the crisis of Hurricane Katrina.

Congress has yet to spend a single day evaluating the response to the hurricane, or demanding accountability for the decisions that were made in the crucial hours after the storm. Everyone's hunkering down, fingers crossed, hoping it doesn't happen again.


Name me a government leader who can articulate a plan for paying down the debit, or solving the energy crisis, or managing the health care problem. The silence is deafening. But these are the crises that are eating away at our country and milking the middle class dry.

I have news for the gang in Congress:

'We didn't elect you to sit on your butts and do nothing and remain silent while our democracy is being hijacked and our greatness is being replaced with mediocrity.' Spending all our time describing everything using politically correct euphemisms as not to step on anyone toes. Call a spade a spade! Lets get real again.

What is everybody so afraid of? That some bonehead on Fox News will call them a name? Give me a break. Why don't you guys show some spine for a change?

Had Enough?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/iacocca.asp

There's more good reading on the Snopes page.

Wow, Mr. Iaccoca summed up every valid point possible.......and so many more. I doubted him when he said he'd turn around Chrysler, but he did.

I wonder why our elected officials can't answer these questions??????

because they are not leaders, they are just the sheep in the front of the herd. As long as American Idol, Fox News, and Dancing with the Stars plays regularly on the TV, most folks are content and the inertia of 250 million worried, voiceless people grinds over the top of anyone with foresight to point out the problem.

[green1]

Just like that other war worked 30 years ago too? That was neither effective or capable in the end either......

I suggest you study some military history of the Vietnam war. The US did not lose a single major engagement in the entire war. To include Tet. Yet the media convinced the populace that we couldn't win, so the government pulled out. Not a military failure, but a failure of the will of the populace.

[krusin1]

Just like that other war worked 30 years ago too? That was neither effective or capable in the end either......

I suggest you study some military history of the Vietnam war. The US did not lose a single major engagement in the entire war. To include Tet. Yet the media convinced the populace that we couldn't win, so the government pulled out. Not a military failure, but a failure of the will of the populace.

Bingo. I would add that the will of the populace failed largely because of the influence of the media. Now, the media has been trying to do the same thing in Iraq - fortunately, the mainstream (left wing) media no longer has a captive audience.

Well said, Green 1.

[krusin1]

I always enjoy these threads

~snip~

This should be treated like the Apollo program or even the Manhattan Project.

but a) we can't have social welfare programs, because it would require cutting the corporate welfare programs we already have in place; and b) god forbid we get government involved in something for the good of all, because private industry was so willing to climb right into the game and get a man on the moon by the end of the 60s...

Dude... who do you think DESIGNED AND BUILT all of that lunar equipment? Private Industry. The government just wrote the check.

BTW, your social welfare programs have largely been the CAUSE, not the antidote to poverty problems. The Great Society and the War on Poverty were well intentioned, but caused far more problems than they solved.

Don't you recall Bill Clinton's crowning achievement? Welfare Reform. It kicked a bunch of people off welfare... and guess what.... a LOT of them went out and got jobs.

a) designed and built after the idea arrived. You didn't see the various and sundry come up with it on their own. Nor did you see the various and sundry do a moon launch solo. Without government involvement, it never would have happened.
b) as for Welfare Reform being the be-all, end-all; I think you paint a lot rosier picture of it being a perfect solution than reality. Did it trim the rolls, a bit. Just remember that the Fed released a study or two on the effects that show that unless getting off welfare is the result of a job that pays more than the cost of daycare for the parent(s), all you've done is shred the social safety net for the least-able to deal with it.

You're missing the point. The social welfare programs did not solve the problem of poverty, they made it worse. They created a culture of dependency and accelerated the breakdown of the nuclear family.

With welfare reform and other such efforts, we're finally trying to undo the damage wrought by the Great Society and the War on Poverty. Yes, it's painful, but in the long run will be a better option than continuing with failed programs.

[green1]

b) as for Welfare Reform being the be-all, end-all; I think you paint a lot rosier picture of it being a perfect solution than reality. Did it trim the rolls, a bit. Just remember that the Fed released a study or two on the effects that show that unless getting off welfare is the result of a job that pays more than the cost of daycare for the parent(s), all you've done is shred the social safety net for the least-able to deal with it.

At what point do you look at a program and say "This isn't working"? Or does it depend on the program? We are not even half of the time in Iraq as we were in Germany post WWII and the democrats are saying "It can't work", "it's a quagmire", "there was no plan". . .

Yet the welfare state has been going on for generations. There has been no shrinkage in the numbers of people on welfare, and in fact the numbers have increased. The only reductions are those caused by government reforms. When welfare began it was supposed to be a temporary thing for those who are desperate. If that is the case, then the numbers would not grow, but would have people come on and go off in short periods of time. But people get on welfare and stay unless they are kicked off. This was not the intent of the program, so when can we expect the democrats to step up and say that "welfare can't work", "we need a change".

[krusin1]

b) as for Welfare Reform being the be-all, end-all; I think you paint a lot rosier picture of it being a perfect solution than reality. Did it trim the rolls, a bit. Just remember that the Fed released a study or two on the effects that show that unless getting off welfare is the result of a job that pays more than the cost of daycare for the parent(s), all you've done is shred the social safety net for the least-able to deal with it.

At what point do you look at a program and say "This isn't working"? Or does it depend on the program? We are not even half of the time in Iraq as we were in Germany post WWII and the democrats are saying "It can't work", "it's a quagmire", "there was no plan". . .

Yet the welfare state has been going on for generations. There has been no shrinkage in the numbers of people on welfare, and in fact the numbers have increased. The only reductions are those caused by government reforms. When welfare began it was supposed to be a temporary thing for those who are desperate. If that is the case, then the numbers would not grow, but would have people come on and go off in short periods of time. But people get on welfare and stay unless they are kicked off. This was not the intent of the program, so when can we expect the democrats to step up and say that "welfare can't work", "we need a change".

Great points, Green 1.

Also a heads-up.... the liberal argument that usually comes next is "but think how much worse it would have been WITHOUT those programs..."

[bocanuts]

See above for a shining example of someone not knowing what they are talking about and vomiting out the same old conservative crap. Welfare numbers are drastically down since Clinton signed in reform a decade ago. Geez...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/cda06-07.cfm

[green1]

See above for a shining example of someone not knowing what they are talking about and vomiting out the same old conservative crap. Welfare numbers are drastically down since Clinton signed in reform a decade ago. Geez...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/cda06-07.cfm

I guess reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I said that the only reason the numbers drop is from government reform.

But thank you for agreeing with my post, and providing the link to prove it.

[Salukulady]

Just like that other war worked 30 years ago too? That was neither effective or capable in the end either......

I suggest you study some military history of the Vietnam war. The US did not lose a single major engagement in the entire war. To include Tet. Yet the media convinced the populace that we couldn't win, so the government pulled out. Not a military failure, but a failure of the will of the populace.

You measure the success of a war by how many major engagements were won. I measure the failure of a war by how many lives were lost. I was not referring to the capability of our military, I was referring to the continuing plight of the our leaders trying to force their beliefs on the rest of the world. You're blaming the media for pulling out of the war? Perhaps 58,000 dead American soldiers and a couple million college students had a little to do with it.