Game OFFICIALLY OVER for McCain and Palin!

[flyboy55]

In the interests of full disclosure, and since the McCain/Palin campaign haven't been very forthcoming on this issue, here is a primer on Todd Palin's Alaska Independence Party, all information from their own website:

http://www.akip.org/introduction.html

This statement from Joe Vogler, the founder of the Alaska Independence Party:

"I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."

From their platform (they don't necessarily WANT to secede - they just want the chance to VOTE on seceding)

. . . The platform of the AIP is, as one would expect, centered on Alaskan issues. Although it is widely thought to be a secessionist movement, the Party makes great effort to emphasize that its primary goal is merely a vote on secession, something that Party advocates say Alaskans were denied during the founding of the state. A plebiscite was, in fact, held in Alaska at the state's inception in 1958, but AIP members argue that voting was corrupt and that residents were not given the proper choice between statehood, commonwealth status, or complete separation -- something they say has been granted to other U.S. territories such as Puerto Rico.

. . .

The AIP, following Vogler's infamous confrontations with officials from the National Park Service and the Environmental Protection Agency, remains steadfastly opposed to environmental regulations and actively promotes the private ownership and widespread development of Alaskan land. . . .

The AIP's goal is clearly stated here:

The Alaskan Independence Party's goal is the vote we were entitled to in 1958, one choice from among the following four alternatives:

1) Remain a Territory.
2) Become a separate and Independent Nation.
3) Accept Commonwealth status.
4) Become a State.

The call for this vote is in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence under a minimal government, fully responsive to the people, promoting a peaceful and lawful means of resolving differences.

On the subject of statehood:

Statehood

. . .

Many in the AIP support INDEPENDENCE. Some support COMMONWEALTH and others support STATEHOOD.

It is the AIPs wish to get a true plebiscite according to international law, only legal Alaskan citizens, it is in the language of the people, federal military and their dependents are not legal citizens and will not be allowed to vote in this plebiscite

And then of course there's the OIL which I think they would like to be able to sell to whoever they want to sell it to, which may or may not be other Americans. Of course, if they become an independent nation they're home free on this issue:

. . .

The AIP supports the exportation of Alaskan Oil to foreign states.

Alaskan North Slope crude was prohibited by federal law for exportation until recently.

It was the AIP who brought this discriminatory federal law to the Alaskan people. Alaska was singled out by this unconstitutional limitation.

The Oil Export ban has cost the people of Alaska Millions if not billions of dollars by forcing Alaska to receive below fair market value for our resource.

You can view Sarah Palin's greetings to AIP convention delegates here. As she says in her remarks to them "keep up the good work". Does she know what they are working for? She slept with one of its members for at least seven years.

http://www.akip.org/conv08.html

So I think I have a few questions for Todd Palin. I would also have to wonder at Sarah Palin's judgment at "palling around" with secessionists and how this calls in to question her ability to become this nation's Vice President.

[Crazy Navy Flyer]

AIP say anything about using violence?

[flyboy55]

AIP say anything about using violence?

Who can say what means they might have used if Joe Vogler had become Governor of Alaska, held his plebiscite, gotten a majority for secession and then been overruled by the federal government, that is, "America and her damned institutions" in Joe Vogler's words.

The AIP continues to work towards this goal "in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence".

Keep in mind, these words in quotes aren't mine or spin from some media internet site. These are the words which the AIP proudly displays on their web page.

This connection between Todd Palin and the AIP is very recent. Sarah Palin delivered a welcome address to their 2008 convention. Perhaps these links should be investigated further.

In contrast, Obama's association with Bill Ayers on boards of directors doesn't represent a threat to the territorial integrity of the United States. Both Obama and Bill Ayers (himself long prior to this election season) have repeatedly disavowed the violence done by the Weather Underground in the 1960s.

[krusin1]

AIP say anything about using violence?

Who can say what means they might have used if Joe Vogler had become Governor of Alaska, held his plebiscite, gotten a majority for secession and then been overruled by the federal government, that is, "America and her damned institutions" in Joe Vogler's words.

The AIP continues to work towards this goal "in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence".

Keep in mind, these words in quotes aren't mine or spin from some media internet site. These are the words which the AIP proudly displays on their web page.

This connection between Todd Palin and the AIP is very recent. Sarah Palin delivered a welcome address to their 2008 convention. Perhaps these links should be investigated further.

In contrast, Obama's association with Bill Ayers on boards of directors doesn't represent a threat to the territorial integrity of the United States. Both Obama and Bill Ayers (himself long prior to this election season) have repeatedly disavowed the violence done by the Weather Underground in the 1960s.

Aw heck.... Key West seceded once and that worked out ok.

[Moonie]

I read a book about his death...haven't thought about any of it until Flyboy brought it up...I've been thinking just who is Joe Vogler


Vogler disappeared under suspicious circumstances in May 1993[4], just weeks before he was scheduled to give a speech to the United Nations on Alaskan independence, sponsored by the government of Iran.[5][6] Convicted thief Manfried West confessed to having murdered Vogler the following year in what he described as a plastic explosives sale gone bad.[4] Vogler's remains were discovered in a gravel pit east of Fairbanks in October 1994 following an anonymous tip.[4] They had been wrapped in a blue tarp secured with duct tape and were identified through fingerprint analysis.[4]

In the opinion of AIP Chair Lynette Clark and other AIP leaders, however, Vogler's death reflected more than a dispute with West. Clark has stated, "He was executed."[7] She notes that Vogler was about to appear before the United Nations to address the issue of Alaskan independence: "The United States government would have been deeply embarrassed. And we can't have that, can we?"[7]

Vogler was buried in Dawson City, Yukon Territory, Canada, fulfulling his wish that he not be buried under the American flag. His second wife, Doris, who died of cancer in January 1992, is buried next to him.

[Moonie]

Ut-Oh that was Wiki...but the info is out there on several other sites...

[flyboy55]

AIP say anything about using violence?

Who can say what means they might have used if Joe Vogler had become Governor of Alaska, held his plebiscite, gotten a majority for secession and then been overruled by the federal government, that is, "America and her damned institutions" in Joe Vogler's words.

The AIP continues to work towards this goal "in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence".

Keep in mind, these words in quotes aren't mine or spin from some media internet site. These are the words which the AIP proudly displays on their web page.

This connection between Todd Palin and the AIP is very recent. Sarah Palin delivered a welcome address to their 2008 convention. Perhaps these links should be investigated further.

In contrast, Obama's association with Bill Ayers on boards of directors doesn't represent a threat to the territorial integrity of the United States. Both Obama and Bill Ayers (himself long prior to this election season) have repeatedly disavowed the violence done by the Weather Underground in the 1960s.

Aw heck.... Key West seceded once and that worked out ok.

If they can ever make it official I think I'll apply for citizenship and forsake my argumentative ways for a beach chair and a cold drink.

[krusin1]

AIP say anything about using violence?

Who can say what means they might have used if Joe Vogler had become Governor of Alaska, held his plebiscite, gotten a majority for secession and then been overruled by the federal government, that is, "America and her damned institutions" in Joe Vogler's words.

The AIP continues to work towards this goal "in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence".

Keep in mind, these words in quotes aren't mine or spin from some media internet site. These are the words which the AIP proudly displays on their web page.

This connection between Todd Palin and the AIP is very recent. Sarah Palin delivered a welcome address to their 2008 convention. Perhaps these links should be investigated further.

In contrast, Obama's association with Bill Ayers on boards of directors doesn't represent a threat to the territorial integrity of the United States. Both Obama and Bill Ayers (himself long prior to this election season) have repeatedly disavowed the violence done by the Weather Underground in the 1960s.

Aw heck.... Key West seceded once and that worked out ok.

If they can ever make it official I think I'll apply for citizenship and forsake my argumentative ways for a beach chair and a cold drink.

If it ever actually happens... I'll join you.

And while we wait, here's a round for all BN'ers on me!

[ScarletB]

AIP say anything about using violence?

Who can say what means they might have used if Joe Vogler had become Governor of Alaska, held his plebiscite, gotten a majority for secession and then been overruled by the federal government, that is, "America and her damned institutions" in Joe Vogler's words.

The AIP continues to work towards this goal "in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence".

Keep in mind, these words in quotes aren't mine or spin from some media internet site. These are the words which the AIP proudly displays on their web page.

This connection between Todd Palin and the AIP is very recent. Sarah Palin delivered a welcome address to their 2008 convention. Perhaps these links should be investigated further.

In contrast, Obama's association with Bill Ayers on boards of directors doesn't represent a threat to the territorial integrity of the United States. Both Obama and Bill Ayers (himself long prior to this election season) have repeatedly disavowed the violence done by the Weather Underground in the 1960s.

Aw heck.... Key West seceded once and that worked out ok.

If they can ever make it official I think I'll apply for citizenship and forsake my argumentative ways for a beach chair and a cold drink.

I'm doing that at MOTM!!

[East Texas Parrothead]

McCain stepped up today and tamped down the dangerous rhetoric spewing from his crowds ... good for him.

[Skibo]

It's not over yet. Pictures of Obama's cat have been uncovered.

[East Texas Parrothead]

It's not over yet. Pictures of Obama's cat have been uncovered.

Oh, spew. Spew. So spewing here ... that is funny ... I don't care where you're from.

[Wino you know]

I hate it when someone posts a photo and all my work computer will show is a red "X".
This damn thing does that a lot.

[pema]

I hate it when someone posts a photo and all my work computer will show is a red "X".
This damn thing does that a lot.

could right click on the picture, select properties and cut and paste the url

[Wino you know]

could right click on the picture, select properties and cut and paste the url

It didn't work.
Thanks anyway.

I'll be able to see all the photos on my home computer when I go home in the morning.

[Elrod]

Are you implying that Barack Obama had something to do with bombing the Marine barracks in Beirut or Timothy McVeigh's bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City?

No wait . . . that's ridiculous. Nobody would suggest such a thing (nobody in their right mind that is).

Not suggesting that at all. Just pointing out that no matter how many years have past, it's not ok to go around blowing things up.

Blowing up government buildings is a not a protest or a political statement. It's murder. If Ayers didn't kill anybody, it was not because he wasn't trying.

No matter how much money Ayers' daddy spent to get him re-accepted by Chicago's society folks, he is still a terrorist.

There really is nothing substantial there, certainly nothing to tie Obama to Bill Ayers actions or views four decades ago. Knowing this, Sarah Palin and others have tried to suggest that even being in the same room with Ayers is somehow a reflection of poor judgment on the part of Obama.

What Bill Ayers did may have been "four decades ago" But it was in the last decade that Obama stood in Ayers home and solicited donations for a political campaign. A recent and relevant connection to a man that is unrepentant about his terrorist activities.

If Ayers is such a good guy, why is Obama trying to distance himself from Ayers by describing him as "a guy who lives in my neighborhood" instead of saying that they served together on a board?

If someone holds a political fundraiser for a candidate and contributes to the campaign, it seems ungrateful to refer to that person as "a guy who lives in my neighborhood."

[ScarletB]

I'm sorry, trying to make some kind of "evil" connection between Obama and Ayers is like saying McCain collaborated with the communists as a POW, therefore, he must be a communist.

McCain did not collaborate with the communists as a POW. Period.

To be fair I don't think that's what they were implying. But I've always heard conflicting reports so I looked it up and found the following. Now don't get me wrong, there's no WAY I could survive any of what he went though so I obviously pass NO judgement no matter what he did. But I did find what is supposedly his own words from his book. Just for what it's worth...



In the book, co-written with Mark Salter, McCain recounts the grievous wounds he suffered when shot down and afterward at the hands of angry Vietnamese.

He was taken to the Maison Centrale, known to POWs as the Hanoi Hilton, where he did lapse in and out of consciousness for four days and refuse his interrogators' demands for information. But then, McCain recounts, he tried a different approach with a prison officer nicknamed "Bug.''

"Desperate, I tried to bargain with him. 'Take me to the hospital and I'll give you the information you want.' I didn't intend to keep my word, reasoning that after my injuries had been treated, I would be strong enough to deal with the consequences of not holding up my end of the bargain,'' McCain wrote.

As for never cooperating with Vietnamese, McCain also admits he eventually gave up information about his ship and Navy squadron. "I regret very much having done so,'' he wrote.

Let me say again before I get in trouble, whatever he had to do to stay sane and alive is OK by me. I'd cave for a lot less. Looks like he said just enough to keep them from killing him or torturing him further. I don't know anyone who wouldn't have done the same thing.

There is a HUGE difference between being tortured into giving up information and "collaborating with the communists".... McCain, like most (all?) of the POWs, was tortured into giving up information. He did NOT collaborate. He was even offered early release because his father was Pacific Commander and refused because it broke with "first captured, first released" protocol.

I apologize if it came off the wrong way, if someone says "collaberated" I wouldn't think they'd make this distinction that it was due to torture, I figured it would be slam for a slams sake.

[seminolegrl06]

This mud has been thrown before, and it just doesn't stick...
Ayers is a well-regarded educator now.
If he is so dangerous, how is he is so widely respected and funded locally in educational circles, now?

You just answered your own question.

Good one I totally agree

Good one?

Thank you for highlighting the reason for the term "two Americas".

Academic intelligence and the education system are the REAL enemies to folks who done di'un't get none, huh?
Governin', go' bless ya', is best left to folks holdin' onto to guns, I guess.
Sarah Palin ain't here for listenun' to... she's just the pretty one standin' next to the war hero... and carryin' his six-pack!!

LB...

As a guy who holds advanced degrees and currently teaches grad school, let me (politely) inform you that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Sadly enough, a lot of our institutions of higher learning have been taken over by the leftover '60s left-wing radicals. They obtained advanced degrees, hid their radical agendas/beliefs until tenured and then let it all fly...

Once tenured, they've been near-impossible to get rid of (Ward Churchill, anyone?) Students are required to take (and pass!) their classes to graduate, and in order to pass, they must regurgitate the rantings of their "professor."

A great deal of what once was truly "higher education" is now a sham.

The only upside is that over the last couple of years, the tide is beginning to turn again. The '60s nutjobs are starting to retire, and the new generation of professors seem to have real-world experience in addition to their academic credentials.

I have scores of stories about how conservative teachers get so harassed by their teachers union they consider quitting their profession. These girls I grew up with, where in the gifted program, graduated magna cum laude and choose to teach. They could have done anything and now the leftist liberal agenda of the teachers union and the NEA are making them regret it.

Just because someone is an 'educator' to some. What is he (ayers) teaching? What is the purpose of all these organizations he is funding? if someone with such radical ideas... hmmm and than he starts educational organization to do what? perhaps teach youth his radical ideas?

[seminolegrl06]

I will say it once again...

Knowing what we know about bill ayers... I don't care HOW LONG AGO it was.

Would you stand in his home and shake his hand?

Would you serve on a board which allocated money to organizations that propagated his radical ideas?

Would you even kindly acknowledge a man who tried to kill innocent americans through terrorist actions?

I am not saying obama is a terrorist. But if he USED bill ayer's money and radical connections to get ahead knowing what we all know about ayer's than I am not sure that is someone I want in the white house.

Seriously if someone has the ambition of higher office... why would they ever step into the home of an unrepentant terrorist?! why?

Why would he EVER even stand in the same room as this guy?

It's very poor judgement. Since barak obama literally has almost NO RECORD. It is one of the very few examples I have of his "leadership" or "judgement" on any sort of controversial issue and he failed miserably.

[Wino you know]

LB...

As a guy who holds advanced degrees and currently teaches grad school, let me (politely) inform you that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Sadly enough, a lot of our institutions of higher learning have been taken over by the leftover '60s left-wing radicals. They obtained advanced degrees, hid their radical agendas/beliefs until tenured and then let it all fly...

Once tenured, they've been near-impossible to get rid of (Ward Churchill, anyone?) Students are required to take (and pass!) their classes to graduate, and in order to pass, they must regurgitate the rantings of their "professor."

A great deal of what once was truly "higher education" is now a sham.

The only upside is that over the last couple of years, the tide is beginning to turn again. The '60s nutjobs are starting to retire, and the new generation of professors seem to have real-world experience in addition to their academic credentials.
krusin1 for President.
NOW!
Very well said, k-1.

I went to school during the 1960's with those jerk-offs, and all I can say is THANK GOD I was blessed enough to have REGULAR teachers, and not these America-hating socialist C.S.ers.
I wish to hell they'd all dunk their heads under water three times and come up for air twice.