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palmettopirate wrote:"See, even our most contentious threads can be informative."

Bingo.

Agreed.

Found this online and thought it was interesting...

The Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem
In 2007, Congress addressed this for the first time in 36 USC 301. This U.S. Code therefore created the first mandated national anthem etiquette.

The pledge of allegiance should be rendered by standing at attention, facing the flag, and placing the right hand over the heart (the salute). Uniformed personnel, firefighters, law enforcement officers, and military personnel in uniform should render a hand salute.

When the national anthem is played or sung, U.S. citizens should stand straight and rigid and salute at the first note and hold the salute through the last note. The salute is directed to the flag, if displayed, otherwise to the singer.
The following is generally accepted etiquette but is not addressed by law.

One should not smoke, eat, chew gum, drink, use your cell phone, read or otherwise occupy themselves while the Anthem is playing.
While the national anthem originated from a poem and was later put to music, it has been rendered and performed in various ways. Generally speaking it should be performed in the traditional manner in order to allow other U.S. Citizen to sing along should the so desire. Rearrangement of the National Anthem is frowned upon by some but there is certainly no prohibition against it. When performed ceremonially it should be sung and played in the proper keys and range.

Former Marine's front-porch flag display is torched

11:07 PM CDT on Tuesday, June 30, 2009

By AVI SELK / The Dallas Morning News
aselk@dallasnews.com

When Ed Jordan hung two flags from his front porch, one for his country and one for the Marine Corps he once served in, he thought no one would take issue with his gesture to honor the troops during the Fourth of July.

He returned home from an errand Monday morning to find the flags burned, their cinders scattered amid his azaleas.

The 70-year-old veteran was shocked when police told him that a flag at another house in his quiet neighborhood just north of Valley View Mall was also incinerated.

"I'd have given them the flags if they wanted them," he said, spreading a handful of remains out on his coffee table. "But to just burn them – I don't understand that at all."

A sooty sliver of red and white was all that remained of the American flag.

Another that had depicted a famous photograph of Marines at Iwo Jima had been reduced to shreds of melted nylon.

Jordan said he enlisted in the Marines out of high school and served as a corporal at Camp Pendleton, Calif., in the 1950s.

"When I was on active duty, the flag always meant something to me," he said. "I'd always take pride when I saw it flying in civilian areas."

How others could take offense at the same sight was beyond his understanding.

"When you damage something that so many have died for, the symbol it represents, that, to me, is intolerable," he said.

Jordan didn't hold out much hope that the culprit or culprits would be caught. He said he'll get another flag and fly it, as he has done for more than a decade.

"I'm not angry, just disappointed," he said. "I guess, more than anything, I feel sorry for them."

"Disappointed" was also the word Jordan's neighbor, Celeste Mele, used to describe her feelings after discovering her own flag had been burned, though she had a few others she said weren't printable.

"The question is, was it a prank or some anti-American statement?" she said. "I guess in this day and age, it could be either one."

The worst part of it is, if they ever *do* catch the perpetrator he can hide behind the 'defense' that he was 'exercising his freedom of expression', and about all they could do to him is charge him with misdemeanor theft of the flag itself (since it wasn't his to burn to start with).

About all I've got to say to that is, if you wish to burn the American flag to 'exercise your freedom of expression' in my presence, you had better be ready for me to exercise *MY* 'freedom of expression'. And it may not be pretty.

-"BB"-

Migration Michelle wrote:Found this online and thought it was interesting...

The Pledge of Allegiance and National Anthem
In 2007, Congress addressed this for the first time in 36 USC 301. This U.S. Code therefore created the first mandated national anthem etiquette.

The pledge of allegiance should be rendered by standing at attention, facing the flag, and placing the right hand over the heart (the salute). Uniformed personnel, firefighters, law enforcement officers, and military personnel in uniform should render a hand salute.

When the national anthem is played or sung, U.S. citizens should stand straight and rigid and salute at the first note and hold the salute through the last note. The salute is directed to the flag, if displayed, otherwise to the singer.
The following is generally accepted etiquette but is not addressed by law.

One should not smoke, eat, chew gum, drink, use your cell phone, read or otherwise occupy themselves while the Anthem is playing.
While the national anthem originated from a poem and was later put to music, it has been rendered and performed in various ways. Generally speaking it should be performed in the traditional manner in order to allow other U.S. Citizen to sing along should the so desire. Rearrangement of the National Anthem is frowned upon by some but there is certainly no prohibition against it. When performed ceremonially it should be sung and played in the proper keys and range.

That's not how it's actually worded according to the US House of Representatives Office of the Law Revision Counsel - the group that prepares and publishes the United States Code http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/36C3.txt. We discussed the Code on page 3

Bicycle Bill wrote:The worst part of it is, if they ever *do* catch the perpetrator he can hide behind the 'defense' that he was 'exercising his freedom of expression', and about all they could do to him is charge him with misdemeanor theft of the flag itself (since it wasn't his to burn to start with).

About all I've got to say to that is, if you wish to burn the American flag to 'exercise your freedom of expression' in my presence, you had better be ready for me to exercise *MY* 'freedom of expression'. And it may not be pretty.

-"BB"-

God Bless Texas - they tried to keep it illegal but the Supreme Court shot them down.

Bicycle Bill wrote:The worst part of it is, if they ever *do* catch the perpetrator he can hide behind the 'defense' that he was 'exercising his freedom of expression', and about all they could do to him is charge him with misdemeanor theft of the flag itself (since it wasn't his to burn to start with).

About all I've got to say to that is, if you wish to burn the American flag to 'exercise your freedom of expression' in my presence, you had better be ready for me to exercise *MY* 'freedom of expression'. And it may not be pretty.

-"BB"-

Couldn't that perpetrator be charged with trespassing too since he did it on someone else's property?

baadbobby wrote:I learned a bit about flag etiquette in 4th and 5th grade, as I had been selected to "Flag Duty." It was the Maryland flag in 4th grade, and the U.S. flag in the 5th. This included raising in the morning, lowering in the afternoon, proper folding technique, and half-mast rules. This sparked an interest, and I've always paid close attention since. My elders always had great respect for the flag and nation (after all, the flag is a representation of the nation).

An interesting story of late: A few months ago, my mother and 6 year old daughter were coming through town, and noticed that our local newspaper office was flying the Maryland flag upside down (a somewhat common mistake given the design of the flag, but an upside down flag is a sign of 1 or 2 things; distress or disrespect). Well, my mom used this as an example to teach my daughter, and explained the proper disposition, etc. Mom also called the newspaper when she got home, and gently told them about the error. The flag was corrected the next day. Fast-forward to this past week, my 6 year old daughter was able to point out that the same flag was upside down again. This time, mom pulled into the lot, got my kid out, and went into the office to let them know. There is a message in this; if a 6 year old child can be told one time about proper flag display, and retain it, then so can the rest of us.

Interesting. I grew up in MD also so maybe I learned some of that in grade school. And that's awesome story!

aeroparrot wrote:

Bicycle Bill wrote:The worst part of it is, if they ever *do* catch the perpetrator he can hide behind the 'defense' that he was 'exercising his freedom of expression', and about all they could do to him is charge him with misdemeanor theft of the flag itself (since it wasn't his to burn to start with).

About all I've got to say to that is, if you wish to burn the American flag to 'exercise your freedom of expression' in my presence, you had better be ready for me to exercise *MY* 'freedom of expression'. And it may not be pretty.

-"BB"-

Couldn't that perpetrator be charged with trespassing too since he did it on someone else's property?

In Texas if I'm not mistaken that's not much more than a ticket. Of course whoever did it could possible run across someone who will wait until he/she steps on their porch and then introduces them to Smith & Wesson.

Does anyone remember the incident in Texas? New Mexico? Arizona? Where the guy cut down the Mexican Flag?

If I remember correctly, the Mexican Flag was flying ABOVE the American Flag outside some Mexican restaurant.

Go ahead and feel free to express your First Ammendment Rights. Don't get mad or upset when I express mine. I served and helped guarantee those Rights would not be infringed. What makes any Flag burner think they can infringe on mine? I am quite sure I have many Brothers and Sisters that will back me up.

Hey whoever you are, you made the choice to live here. If you want to complain about it, No problem! Everyone has that Right. I am quite sure there better ways than disrespecting the American Flag or burning it, to express your views. Again don't be upset when a veteran or someone else exercises their Right to Free Speech.
Far too many people have bled, died, lost limbs, lost friends, and made too many sacrifices to count, suffered innumerable and unccountable tragedies and live with unforgetable memories, in countries all over the World, for that Flag and what it represents.
Go ahead if you want to burn it. You have your Rights! Exercise them. I have my Rights and I do exercise them FREQUENTLY!

You are in for a very rude awakening and no doubt a lot more pain than you are ever going to want to deal with if you ever burn The Flag around me.

It was Reno Nevada and if I'm not mistaken a Mexican bar

ph4ever wrote:

Former Marine's front-porch flag display is torched

11:07 PM CDT on Tuesday, June 30, 2009

By AVI SELK / The Dallas Morning News
aselk@dallasnews.com

When Ed Jordan hung two flags from his front porch, one for his country and one for the Marine Corps he once served in, he thought no one would take issue with his gesture to honor the troops during the Fourth of July.

He returned home from an errand Monday morning to find the flags burned, their cinders scattered amid his azaleas.

The 70-year-old veteran was shocked when police told him that a flag at another house in his quiet neighborhood just north of Valley View Mall was also incinerated.

"I'd have given them the flags if they wanted them," he said, spreading a handful of remains out on his coffee table. "But to just burn them – I don't understand that at all."

A sooty sliver of red and white was all that remained of the American flag.

Another that had depicted a famous photograph of Marines at Iwo Jima had been reduced to shreds of melted nylon.

Jordan said he enlisted in the Marines out of high school and served as a corporal at Camp Pendleton, Calif., in the 1950s.

"When I was on active duty, the flag always meant something to me," he said. "I'd always take pride when I saw it flying in civilian areas."

How others could take offense at the same sight was beyond his understanding.

"When you damage something that so many have died for, the symbol it represents, that, to me, is intolerable," he said.

Jordan didn't hold out much hope that the culprit or culprits would be caught. He said he'll get another flag and fly it, as he has done for more than a decade.

"I'm not angry, just disappointed," he said. "I guess, more than anything, I feel sorry for them."

"Disappointed" was also the word Jordan's neighbor, Celeste Mele, used to describe her feelings after discovering her own flag had been burned, though she had a few others she said weren't printable.

"The question is, was it a prank or some anti-American statement?" she said. "I guess in this day and age, it could be either one."

WTF??????????????? People really are A$$HATS sometimes!

ph4ever wrote:

Former Marine's front-porch flag display is torched

11:07 PM CDT on Tuesday, June 30, 2009

By AVI SELK / The Dallas Morning News
aselk@dallasnews.com

When Ed Jordan hung two flags from his front porch, one for his country and one for the Marine Corps he once served in, he thought no one would take issue with his gesture to honor the troops during the Fourth of July.

He returned home from an errand Monday morning to find the flags burned, their cinders scattered amid his azaleas.

The 70-year-old veteran was shocked when police told him that a flag at another house in his quiet neighborhood just north of Valley View Mall was also incinerated.

"I'd have given them the flags if they wanted them," he said, spreading a handful of remains out on his coffee table. "But to just burn them – I don't understand that at all."

A sooty sliver of red and white was all that remained of the American flag.

Another that had depicted a famous photograph of Marines at Iwo Jima had been reduced to shreds of melted nylon.

Jordan said he enlisted in the Marines out of high school and served as a corporal at Camp Pendleton, Calif., in the 1950s.

"When I was on active duty, the flag always meant something to me," he said. "I'd always take pride when I saw it flying in civilian areas."

How others could take offense at the same sight was beyond his understanding.

"When you damage something that so many have died for, the symbol it represents, that, to me, is intolerable," he said.

Jordan didn't hold out much hope that the culprit or culprits would be caught. He said he'll get another flag and fly it, as he has done for more than a decade.

"I'm not angry, just disappointed," he said. "I guess, more than anything, I feel sorry for them."

"Disappointed" was also the word Jordan's neighbor, Celeste Mele, used to describe her feelings after discovering her own flag had been burned, though she had a few others she said weren't printable.

"The question is, was it a prank or some anti-American statement?" she said. "I guess in this day and age, it could be either one."

My dad, an Air Force veteran of the Korean War, says anyone who burns an American flag should get the death penalty. And he is not kidding about it. He says the same thing about draft dodgers and people who go AWOL from the military. That’s the kind of house I grew up in. I don’t think much of flag burners.



“You have the right to burn your flag, and I have the right to bear arms so I can shoot you if you try to burn mine”…Johnny Cash before performing “Ragged old Flag”

Offers pour in from soldiers, Kid Rock to replace former Marine's burned flags
9:40 AM Thu, Jul 02, 2009

Our little story about a few front-porch flags that got burned in Far North Dallas has sparked a firestorm of attention since it ran on Tuesday.

The story, which my editor discovered from a single line in an obscure police report, ("UNK SUSP BURNED USA FLAG MOUNTED IN FRONT OF COMP RESIDENCE") has also grabbed the attention of nearly every TV station in Dallas and the Associated Press. It's also made the rounds on Twitter and caught the eye of conservative blogger Michelle Malkin.

Since writing the article, I've been contacted by soldiers, civilians, a flag manufacturer and the agent for Kid Rock -- all of whom want to help replace the burned flags. An Army veteran offered up an American flag he said had been flown over several camps and bases in Iraq.

Ed Jordan, who said he served with the Marines, lost two $10 flags in the vandalism. He was very appreciative of the support when I called him yesterday, though he might soon have more replacement flags than he knows what to do with.

I would like to clarify one thing for those outraged by the vandalism: neither the police nor either victim could say whether the burnings were a political statement, a juvenile prank, or something else entirely.

Went to a Loons game last night. People aren't given the chance to "not know" what to do during the national anthem there. First is a video from a veteran (it's been different wars/different people) asking for people to join in honoring America during the national anthem, then Jerry ODonnell tells everyone "Ladies and Gentlemen, please remove your caps and look to the flag in left field and join (whoever is singing that night) in singing our national anthem."

I was interested because of this thread to see what the crowd around us was doing. I did not see one cap left on and while many didn't sing, all the crowd that I could see (while facing the flag) faced the flag and didn't chat during the anthem.

Very cool! Glad he is going to get his flags replaced!!! Thanks for the update Connie!

nutmeg wrote:Went to a Loons game last night. People aren't given the chance to "not know" what to do during the national anthem there. First is a video from a veteran (it's been different wars/different people) asking for people to join in honoring America during the national anthem, then Jerry ODonnell tells everyone "Ladies and Gentlemen, please remove your caps and look to the flag in left field and join (whoever is singing that night) in singing our national anthem."

I was interested because of this thread to see what the crowd around us was doing. I did not see one cap left on and while many didn't sing, all the crowd that I could see (while facing the flag) faced the flag and didn't chat during the anthem.

That's awesome that the Loons do that!!! I think the next time I am at the horse track for the first race I'll look around myself. I can't remember if they make any announcement like that or not.

Happy Independence Day!We have had some great banter over the past several days. Let's make today's posts 100% positive and respectful. No matter how screwed up things are right now, I feel blessed. I am absolutely grateful for the sacrifices of those Americans long before my time, like my Great Uncle, who had his guts sliced into by a Nazi on D-day. I'm grateful for the first responders on 9/11, including the citizens who chose to fight back and diverted a plane from crashing into the Capitol building or elsewhere "let's roll!" I'm grateful for my Niece, who could have went to any number of top universities, but instead shipped off to West Point last week. I'm grateful to not only the signers of the Declaration of Independence, but to the signers of the Bush Declaration of 1775 (google it). I am also grateful to those who have served in times of peace. I am grateful to myself, and all others like me, who go to work and pay taxes, and raise their children, and to the ones who educate our children, and pave the roads...you get the picture, what and who are you all grateful for?

I'm grateful that a hundred and thirty-some years ago, my great-grandfather told the Kaiser to shove it and legally emigrated to America.
I'm grateful that this country accepted him; let him work at his trade (he was a carpenter/woodcarver); let him raise a family; let him become a naturalized American citizen.
I'm grateful for all the other people's great-grandfathers (and great-grandmothers) who did the same thing.
I'm grateful that when WWI and WWII came around, they remembered that they were not German-Americans but simply Americans, and answered their country's call to arms.
I'm grateful so many were willing to meet the responsibilities that came when they accepted the privilege of being called "Americans".
I'm hopeful that there are still people like that out there today.

-"BB"-

Amen, Bill.
Amen, Rich.