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All I said was teachers make excellent money for 180 days of work. The notion that teachers are under paid or under valued, in my opinion, are nothing more then stereotypes. Others in this thread took that and ran with it in wild - weird - bizarre directions. Everyone who works hard, especially those who get dirt under their nails and work outdoors all year for less money then those who work in doors for 180 days - in doors with far superior medical/dental/retirement and tenure, should be respected and honored. Why single out one profession?

It is not bashing anyone. It is merely saying . . . hey - to everyone who busts their as$ - you make our society(s) the great place(s) we get to live in. Why rank one group of people above another?

(and why did that nob in the video not let kids get water? a cruel and sadistic f*cker he is. I would revolt . . . water? Really? Is he running a Turkish prison? Geesh.).

drunkpirate66 wrote:I have worked in Education for the past year. Teachers at my school, who work 180 days a year, earn between 55,000, 72,000 dollars for less then a half a year's work. Most leave work for the day by 3PM. We all get 20 paid sick days and 5 paid professional days. Our insurance is as good as you will find any where for medical and dental. We have a 20 year retirement plan. Factoring in paper work and grading papers while subtracting the average 10 + days most teachers take off a year we all work 1,000 hours a year . . . probably a little less. I work in counselor so I don't have the aspect of the job. That works out to 55$ to 72$ an hour with pay checks coming in all summer to pay for the beach bar tab. No heavy lifting. Warm and dry work conditions. Tenured job security. Lets be serious . . . teachers and educators should be respected and appreciated - but we don't have it that bad. No worse then the guys working construction in the cold or other manual labor jobs for an hourly wage far less then the about rate.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the paid work shop days and 2,000$ of paid tuition that, atleast my school, offer to all employees to further their eduction and better their professional resume' for future employment possibilities. 1 Graduate level class paid for per year. Think all the blue collar guys working their as$es off for far less money - working 50 + weeks a year - wouldn't love that? What teachers make? Is a very VERY good living.

If you can't say something nice.... you DO have it very good. Working in "counselor" is not teaching. No, you don't have the ??? aspect of the job(?), with 2-4 public presentations daily, that the audience is required by the government to attend, even though they would rather be doing something else. And you are not evaluated on each presentation, to make sure that it is engaging, motivating, entertaining, and educational. Go home(or stay late), grade the work generated by the audience/ plan the next day's motivational, engaging, entertaining, and educational presentations, sleep, repeat. 180 times. Lunch? 15-20 minutes while not helping kids at lunchtime. Leave at 3? Only if I'm very sick. But then I need to make sure that I have called someone to cover my classes (yes we have to find our own subs), and prepared the materials in detail (no, we can't just say "I won't be in today"). We get half the number of days you do.
I put in my full year's work- in 10 months!

No, counseling is not teaching.

And no, we do not get our hands dirty ( well, usually), and yes, we work indoors.
I like to tell my students that that is one of the rewards of a college education- you have the option of not working outdoors.

When I read about companies who have employees making several million per year, I can't help but think, "And I haven't had a raise or even a cost of living adjustment in 2 years."

Don't get me wrong- I am very thankful for my job- there are a lot of great things about it. But please, please, don't assume your experience speaks for us all.

brznbeaches wrote:

drunkpirate66 wrote:I have worked in Education for the past year. Teachers at my school, who work 180 days a year, earn between 55,000, 72,000 dollars for less then a half a year's work. Most leave work for the day by 3PM. We all get 20 paid sick days and 5 paid professional days. Our insurance is as good as you will find any where for medical and dental. We have a 20 year retirement plan. Factoring in paper work and grading papers while subtracting the average 10 + days most teachers take off a year we all work 1,000 hours a year . . . probably a little less. I work in counselor so I don't have the aspect of the job. That works out to 55$ to 72$ an hour with pay checks coming in all summer to pay for the beach bar tab. No heavy lifting. Warm and dry work conditions. Tenured job security. Lets be serious . . . teachers and educators should be respected and appreciated - but we don't have it that bad. No worse then the guys working construction in the cold or other manual labor jobs for an hourly wage far less then the about rate.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the paid work shop days and 2,000$ of paid tuition that, atleast my school, offer to all employees to further their eduction and better their professional resume' for future employment possibilities. 1 Graduate level class paid for per year. Think all the blue collar guys working their as$es off for far less money - working 50 + weeks a year - wouldn't love that? What teachers make? Is a very VERY good living.

If you can't say something nice.... you DO have it very good. Working in "counselor" is not teaching. No, you don't have the ??? aspect of the job(?), with 2-4 public presentations daily, that the audience is required by the government to attend, even though they would rather be doing something else. And you are not evaluated on each presentation, to make sure that it is engaging, motivating, entertaining, and educational. Go home(or stay late), grade the work generated by the audience/ plan the next day's motivational, engaging, entertaining, and educational presentations, sleep, repeat. 180 times. Lunch? 15-20 minutes while not helping kids at lunchtime. Leave at 3? Only if I'm very sick. But then I need to make sure that I have called someone to cover my classes (yes we have to find our own subs), and prepared the materials in detail (no, we can't just say "I won't be in today"). We get half the number of days you do.
I put in my full year's work- in 10 months!

No, counseling is not teaching.

And no, we do not get our hands dirty ( well, usually), and yes, we work indoors.
I like to tell my students that that is one of the rewards of a college education- you have the option of not working outdoors.

When I read about companies who have employees making several million per year, I can't help but think, "And I haven't had a raise or even a cost of living adjustment in 2 years."

Don't get me wrong- I am very thankful for my job- there are a lot of great things about it. But please, please, don't assume your experience speaks for us all.

When did I say something not nice? If anyone isn't nice it is that d*ck in the video who wouldn't give the kid water? How does he know if the kid is thirsty not? Thats just crazy mean.

First of all . . . you don't work 10 months. You work 180 days or less. Second, telling people that if they go to college they have the option to work indoors as a motivator is just wrong. My opinion. Don't mean to offend . . . really. But that just deepens an already class - based society that I can't begin to comprehend. Creates the thought that one group is a better class then another. Completely disagree. College should not be the baseline for that kind of thought process.

I am on the same pay scale as every other teacher in my district. The title of this thread is "what teachers make" and the theme is that teachers don't make a lot of money but do make a difference (therefore, yeah - in terms of "what we make" it is the same). I disagree with this stereotype that teachers don't make a decent wage. Teachers make a fantastic wage . . . and also make a difference. I hang out and am friends with many teachers at the high school where I work. They all feel they make fantastic money and don't feel the need to preach about their work (some would be so bold to even say "I teach for summers off" because they travel ). Putting one person's profession on top of another's is something I don't agree with. Teachers choose to teach. Others do other things. No one is better than anyone else. Honor everyone's hard work.

And there are people who post on this thread . . . who I have known personally . . . who have made it very clear that the schedule and work conditions are the primary reasons why they teach (as they enjoy the beach life in the summer) but then say different publicly. It is all quite laughable. Just saying.

You know...I really do get upset with the teachers battle cry.."we are not appreciated"...we "make a difference".....etc.

I pay high taxes and expect a good education for my son. I know teachers face tough days..but we all do.

As a parent, I truly believe the teachers and administration would prefer we (parents) not be involved unless it is at their discretion. This is from my experience with many of the teachers my son has had. You don't question what they do or how they do it. You don't question their policy or procedures...because...you (parents) don't understand what we go thru....

To take this conversation to a another level, I just watched a video of a classmate of my son, a very wonderful, popular, athletic, talented 11th grader playing the guitar and singing the song he wrote and I cried.....this boy committed suicide three weeks ago. somehow...we ALL failed this child. Maybe we need to work on that....

With regards to the State of Wisconsin and OUR debt....$3.6 billion...$3.6 billion...what exempts state employees from having to make financial sacrifices like the rest of us to pay down this debt? Are they more important than me?
If someone can explain why state employees shouldn't help pay down the debt with some sort of financial sacrifice I'm all ears.
I'm not a teacher, a fireman, a DMV clerk, etc but I didn't think I was lower than them all and had less worth.
Cheers
Wiscoleeds

wiscoleeds wrote:With regards to the State of Wisconsin and OUR debt....$3.6 billion...$3.6 billion...what exempts state employees from having to make financial sacrifices like the rest of us to pay down this debt? Are they more important than me?
If someone can explain why state employees shouldn't help pay down the debt with some sort of financial sacrifice I'm all ears.
I'm not a teacher, a fireman, a DMV clerk, etc but I didn't think I was lower than them all and had less worth.
Cheers
Wiscoleeds

Wiscoleeds, I *WAS* a State of Wisconsin employee for part of my working career.

I think it is less about the givebacks (although that is certainly a part of the protests) than it is Gov. Walker's attempt to bust the state employee's union and the collective bargaining system with little or no input. His 144-page "budget repair bill" was introduced only a week or so ago; there's been exactly *ONE* hearing for public input which ran until 3:00 AM on Wednesday and, even though there were still people waiting to speak, was finally gaveled to a close by the same gang of Republican thugs that Walker expects to rubber-stamp this thing later this week. I never thought I'd say this, but I actually side with the Democrats and their stalling efforts, including a walkout from the state Senate chambers so that a quorum could not be reached and no further action could be taken.

The only difference between Walker and the union-busters of a hundred years ago is that the governor and his cadre of bullies are using ball-point pens instead of baseball bats.

-"BB"-

MammaBear, first of all, I am SO sorry for your loss. I've lost friends and family to suicide. I wish your son didn't have to experience death of a friend at such a young age. Secondly, I would have loved to have a parent who wanted to have an active role in the education of their child. I'm sure there are other teachers here who would agree.

Jon - I think what has bothered people by your posts is that you are trying to generalize your year experience as a coach and counselor in your district with classroom teachers in other districts and other states. The job duties and expectations are different as a coach and counselor then they are for a teacher. As I stated in my other post, you are very lucky that your district provides everything the teachers need to teach, money to go to school and a great salary for your first year. That doesn't happen in the rest of the US.

According to data on the MA Dept of Education site, the average teacher there makes $67,577. The average salary for teachers in the US is $55,350. Based on a couple of different sites (since the MA site doesn't report beginning teacher salaries) the starting salary for a teacher in MA is $35,000 - $47,000, which is about average for the US. For you to make $68,000 in your first year... you are extremely fortunate. Thank your local school board and union. Hopefully under the new contract negotiations, you will be able to retain all the perks you have now.

Your contract is 180 days. Some states require teacher contracts for 212 days and others 170. For some states, the "contract" days are instructional days only. It doesn't include the non paid inservice days you are required to attend prior to the start of the year or the days after the kids leave to close down the classrooms. As a coach and an a counselor, you are also lucky that you are not required to be in the building for more days than the classroom teachers. The coaches I know start 2 a days in late July, early August. They are on and off campus during June, working with students on strength training and conditioning. Many counselors are on administrative contracts requiring them to be there all of June and August.

Districts use benefit packages as a way to recruit teachers. Some states allow districts to negotiate their own deals with companies while others require them to go with the state insurance. In my experience, I have had great insurance packages with some and crappy with others. I'm sure that is the same with any profession. Just because you have a great package does not mean every other teacher has one.

Maybe you can see why your generalization has rubbed people the wrong way. You have a pretty sweet deal going on that is the exception, not the norm.

You bring up the fact that teachers deserve no more respect than construction workers, people who pave our streets, etc. I am not going to disagree that our military should be appreciated. They should. Our public servants, police, EMS, firemen, they deserve just as much as teachers. Everyone should be respected for what they decide to do for a living. Comparing other professions to teaching really isn't realistic. It is like comparing apples to plastic. When a construction worker leaves at the end of the day, he is done. He doesn't take work home with him. He gets paid for the hours he works. If he works overtime, he gets paid time and a half. If a street ends up with a pothole, does the person who paved the road get sued?

Most teachers take work home with them. They have lessons to grade and lessons to plan. Even if the district provides a curriculum, a teacher still has to prep their materials for it, create power points, find ways to make the written curriculum engaging to the students. There is just no possible way to get that done during the contracted hours. The hour you have off for your "conference period" is barely enough to get set up for the next class, return phone calls or emails and go to the bathroom. They don't get paid for the hours they put in before or after "contract hours". I know you have paperwork you have to complete as a counselor, but in your current position, you can complete it during your contracted hours.

Teachers are the one who are blamed if a student fails their class. It doesn't matter that the teacher has contacted the parents, talked to the student, talked to coach, provided them every opportunity to get their work in so it can be graded. Teachers have to justify why they gave the student the grade. I have known teachers who have been sued, yes sued, because a student failed. It wasn't the student's fault because he wasn't doing his work, that he deleted voice mails or lied and told his parents he was going to tutorials and he wasn't. It wasn't the parent's fault because they were not making sure the student was doing his homework and going to tutorials. It was the teachers fault. Does that happen in other professions?

I don't think there is any other profession where your job performance is put in the newspaper every year, compared to other nations or used to sway people to live in a certain area or bring new business to the state. Are doctors evaluated every year and their performance compared to the entire world? Are they told by the state and feds that if they don't decrease the number of people who come in sick each year then they are going to be fired and it doesn't matter if the patients have a chronic illness?

Jon, outside of being in the military, did you have a job where you to worry about being attacked, threatened or shot? Did you ever live in fear that when you walked out to your car, you would find your tires slashed or you were worried about getting jumped because someone was mad at your for something as trivial as a grade on a homework assignment? Did you have to learn the code words to use so the local gangs leave you alone? You said you taught when you were in the military, how did you handle someone who talked back to you or was disrespectful? Were your students allowed to cuss you out or threaten to kill you and all they got was a slap on the hand as a consequence? If one of your students hit you, could you hit back? I have a feeling that your students were a little more respectful and there were consequences for their actions. You didn't just have to sit there and take it.

Contrary to popular belief, public education is one of the first things to be cut in many state budgets. Higher education is next, then public services. We are looking at one of the largest layoffs of teachers due to budget cuts. Teachers are begging for reduced pay, furloughs, anything so they can keep their job. Is that going to happen, no. They are going to cut teachers and increase class size. Have you ever had to spend 8 hours with 35 6 yr olds in a room? I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I cringe at the thought of a chemistry class with 40 students in it. When you put 40 people in a lab that was designed for 25, the number of accidents increase. Who gets blame for the accident? The teacher.

Teachers already pay for about 80% of the materials in their classroom. Is there another profession that has to do that? How many professions have state and federal laws passed and then not have the money provided to implement? Schools are told to find a way to make it work and when they don't, they get slammed for it. Is there any other profession who is blamed for being the root of the ills of society?

I will be the first to admit that there are bad teachers out there. People who should have never been certified in the first place. As much as universities and school districts do to screen people, some do get through the cracks. Background checks only get you so far. At least now, at the university level, there are ways to get people who have the grades but not the personal skills out of the system. There are also schools out there who have mishandled money and abused the trust of the parents. I'm sure in every profession, there are bad apples. Those that give the good ones a bad name.

Did I enjoy July when I didn't have work to do? You bet. The only reason I could have a month where I didn't have to work was because I chose to have my contract salary paid out over 12 months. I busted my a$$ to be a great teacher. I did what I needed to do to make sure my students learned science and it was relevant to their lives. I wasn't there to be their friend, but I was someone my students trusted and respected. They knew I was hard but I was fair. Every year, I had 150 kids. They were MY kids. They still are my kids. I was proud of them when they did something good and disappointed with them when they did something bad. Did I have students who didn't like me, yes. You can't make everyone like you.

To answer the title of the thread "What do teachers make"... I make a difference in the lives of students. I may not be in the classroom anymore, but everything I do, I do to make the lives of teachers easier so they can make a difference in their classroom.

Allow me to chime in and be serious and slightly off subject for a second.
So far all of my son's teachers have been hotties (all milfs and cougars)!! seriously
That is all.

Thank you Janice.
I don't know how you kept your cool...but you explained it beautifully

Thanks Janice...we've been through so many of the same experiences, but I'm sure you explained it far more eloquently than I could at this moment.

You're absolutely right in saying we can't make generalizations. It would be nice if more districts were like Jon's...but amongst my friends who teach all over the country, I'd say the majority are more like our districts than his.

As for benefits, I was paying over $11,000 a year out of pocket for 90/10 coverage. Most of my non educator friends were getting their entire family covered for far less than I was paying as a single person. I'd hardly call that a perk. My "budget" that was provided by the district was $100 a year. Everything else was out of my pocket, and it's not an understatement to say I spent thousands each year. I paid for any conferences I attended, any classes I took to learn about new techniques. Trust me when I say my salary in no way made up for all the money I shelled out for all these things.

I also got to experience the violent side of being an educator. I was threatened more times than I can count. I've been bitten, hit, kicked, stabbed with pencils, had a desk thrown at me, had my hair almost ripped out of my head, climbed fences and walls to go after kids who bolted from campus, all that good stuff. I put myself between an angry parent packing a gun and the teacher she was going after. How many professions deal with that on a daily basis? Weekly I went into homes in neighborhoods that most people can't even begin to imagine...because if the parents wouldn't or couldn't come to us, we went to them. Ever tried to have a meeting with a parent with drug deals going on right under your nose? Ever gone into a home and immediately looked for all your avenues of escape in case the bullets started flying? That was the norm for us. And since these meetings were after the school day, I didn't get paid for all that. It was just part of the job. As was dealing with the abuse cases, which are just too heartbreaking to go into here. The kids I couldn't save haunt me to this day.

Then there were the legal battles. Sometimes we spent over 8 hours a day in legal meetings for ONE kid. And since I didn't get a sub, I had to make up that time with my students. There's not enough hours in the day, or days in the week for all the hats I had to wear. And yet, I loved my job. Why? Because the good more than made up for the bad. A heartfelt "thank you for believing in my child" is the best gift you can receive. I made a difference, especially with those that everyone had given up on. To some of you, that might be meaningless. But it means the world to me...and that's all that matters.

I miss the good ole days when my friend would send me text messages about threads he found....interesting? funny? ridiculous? and save his commentary for such much more important topics like the red sox and great woods. That being said, I think it is hard to argue with the logic of his initial statement (and I think that is most important with any thread: what a person's initial is usually reflects the closets truth of their belief, everything after will always have the touch of defense). The only two things more pertinent in the thread (I believe) are Janice's very thoughtful and thought out comments about education and Larry's comment about who teachers remember and who remembers them.

You're right Jon. I don't know the name of anyone who's paved a road. If pressed, I could maybe remember a friend or two who went to work for the local construction companies, and deduce that one of them may have paved a road I was on. Now I'm glad everyone who's paved a road did just that, but none of them taught me anything, not even how to drive on the road they paved. You've met me Jon. Would you rather have me be the marginally intelligent person you met, or a moronic dolt, unable to find a place to stay and a mode of transportation when left stranded in a southern state? (Ok, cheap shot.)

As for serving in the armed forces, during a war, I have a picture of my uncle and a friend who served in the first Gulf war. if pressed I'm sure I could come up with more. But last time I checked, nobody (at least not anybody I know) was saying "Hey, those enlistees have it too soft and are getting paid too much."

This, however, gets away from your original argument, that teachers have it easier than most people make it out to sound like. I will say this (and defend it strenuously) that you are not wired like most people, and that your view of life, and how it should be enjoyed, is a lot more lax than most. To you, work is work and money is money, and neither one of those will get in the way of you enjoying life. You present a practical argument: it's a job, nothing more. To quote Charles Barkley, you're nobody's role model.

To other people, it's not that simple. They have a responsibility to be more, to do more, to be there in a way most people aren't, and to that end, and all the extra they do. Well, let's take it practical again.

I work more than I'm supposed. I spend money on things I don't get reimbursed for. I take time to make sure other people are working to their best level. and when I'm done working, I find myself thinking of the ways I could do better tomorrow.

The difference?

I get people drunk. But teachers, they give me, and millions of others, the ability to speak (hopefully) objectively, write (somewhat) rationally, and (theoretically) put several paragraphs together that defend an argument.

(Incidentally I don't think the Nationals go for Pujols unless they have something close to a breakout year. I think they've wasted too much money, and unless they have 90 wins, the money spent already will be the downer to both them offering it and him taking it.)

surfpirate wrote:My pet peeve?

My wife has been a school teacher for nearly 30 years. Every time we want to take a vacation,
it has to be during the busiest ($$$$) vacation travel seasons of the year. Because "school is out".

I can take a vacation any damb week or 2 or 3 of the year that I want to.
She cannot. Has to be over "winter break", "spring break" or 2 summer months.

When she retires, we'll finally be able to take advantage of "off season rates"
and travel whenever we damb well please.

A little history lesson...

When the formal school system was designed, we were a nation who depended on agriculture for our livelihoods. Spring break was designed so everyone in the community could help plant crops. School wasn't held in the summer so everyone, including the teacher, could go work the fields and harvest the crops.

There have been many pushes to change to a year round schedule. Big business has blocked it every time. Who else are they going to hire during the tourist season to work at minimum wage?

txaggirl91 wrote:

surfpirate wrote:My pet peeve?

My wife has been a school teacher for nearly 30 years. Every time we want to take a vacation,
it has to be during the busiest ($$$$) vacation travel seasons of the year. Because "school is out".

I can take a vacation any damb week or 2 or 3 of the year that I want to.
She cannot. Has to be over "winter break", "spring break" or 2 summer months.

When she retires, we'll finally be able to take advantage of "off season rates"
and travel whenever we damb well please.

A little history lesson...

When the formal school system was designed, we were a nation who depended on agriculture for our livelihoods. Spring break was designed so everyone in the community could help plant crops. School wasn't held in the summer so everyone, including the teacher, could go work the fields and harvest the crops.

There have been many pushes to change to a year round schedule. Big business has blocked it every time. Who else are they going to hire during the tourist season to work at minimum wage?

I realize that. But year-round school will still incorporate *winter break* (Christmas) and *spring break* (Easter) and there will still be the mandatory 180+ days (ish) out of which she can never take a random 2 or 3 week vacation. If school is "in session", we can never schedule a 2 week cruise or 10 day vacation to Europe.

It's true. It bites. Even if you have all the time in the bank, districts have restrictions on taking those days.

I am very concerned that no one cares that the teacher in that video want give a kid water! Kidney stones are no laughing matter. I am writing my local congressman. Action, here, is pertinent and timely.

popcornjack wrote:I miss the good ole days when my friend would send me text messages about threads he found....interesting? funny? ridiculous? and save his commentary for such much more important topics like the red sox and great woods. That being said, I think it is hard to argue with the logic of his initial statement (and I think that is most important with any thread: what a person's initial is usually reflects the closets truth of their belief, everything after will always have the touch of defense). The only two things more pertinent in the thread (I believe) are Janice's very thoughtful and thought out comments about education and Larry's comment about who teachers remember and who remembers them.

You're right Jon. I don't know the name of anyone who's paved a road. If pressed, I could maybe remember a friend or two who went to work for the local construction companies, and deduce that one of them may have paved a road I was on. Now I'm glad everyone who's paved a road did just that, but none of them taught me anything, not even how to drive on the road they paved. You've met me Jon. Would you rather have me be the marginally intelligent person you met, or a moronic dolt, unable to find a place to stay and a mode of transportation when left stranded in a southern state? (Ok, cheap shot.)

As for serving in the armed forces, during a war, I have a picture of my uncle and a friend who served in the first Gulf war. if pressed I'm sure I could come up with more. But last time I checked, nobody (at least not anybody I know) was saying "Hey, those enlistees have it too soft and are getting paid too much."

This, however, gets away from your original argument, that teachers have it easier than most people make it out to sound like. I will say this (and defend it strenuously) that you are not wired like most people, and that your view of life, and how it should be enjoyed, is a lot more lax than most. To you, work is work and money is money, and neither one of those will get in the way of you enjoying life. You present a practical argument: it's a job, nothing more. To quote Charles Barkley, you're nobody's role model.

To other people, it's not that simple. They have a responsibility to be more, to do more, to be there in a way most people aren't, and to that end, and all the extra they do. Well, let's take it practical again.

I work more than I'm supposed. I spend money on things I don't get reimbursed for. I take time to make sure other people are working to their best level. and when I'm done working, I find myself thinking of the ways I could do better tomorrow.

The difference?

I get people drunk. But teachers, they give me, and millions of others, the ability to speak (hopefully) objectively, write (somewhat) rationally, and (theoretically) put several paragraphs together that defend an argument.

(Incidentally I don't think the Nationals go for Pujols unless they have something close to a breakout year. I think they've wasted too much money, and unless they have 90 wins, the money spent already will be the downer to both them offering it and him taking it.)

penis

Another great post, Janice. Full of facts and citations, not opinion.

SP, that's one of my pet peeves, too. However, there is a single elementary school in my wife's district that is going to a year-round schedule this summer. I don't think it will work too well for families with kids also in middle school or high school, but I think I would like that schedule if I were a teacher or a student.

surfpirate wrote:My pet peeve?

My wife has been a school teacher for nearly 30 years. Every time we want to take a vacation,
it has to be during the busiest ($$$$) vacation travel seasons of the year. Because "school is out".

I can take a vacation any damb week or 2 or 3 of the year that I want to.
She cannot. Has to be over "winter break", "spring break" or 2 summer months.

When she retires, we'll finally be able to take advantage of "off season rates"
and travel whenever we damb well please.

I still dont believe you have a wife. If Saltx3 has met her I guess I have to believe her.

Thank you Janice

Thank you Jack